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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
755 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jul 2011 : 17:17:19
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I was tempted to make a poll to see which edition people favored the most as far as clerics, but I thought I'd start with a simple thread first.
What fascinates me the most about the Cleric class, especially in the realms, is how Clerics has become rather versatile - especially in 3.X edition, depending upon which domains the Cleric takes - as a whole, without fully replacing a different class at the same time. In 3.X, cleric domains such as Magic, Trickery, or War can almost double as either an arcane spellcaster, a stealth-type class, or as a warrior-type class especially.
As far as my own homebrew cleric domains, I have actually been altering a few existing ones, either as far as domain spells or domain power in some cases to better fit a specific niche within a game and better represent the role such domains play.
However, I still want to touch base with you guys and see what you think of clerics and versatility in as many editions as any of you can fathom and see what you have to say about Realms clerics and their versatility.
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Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4495 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2011 : 18:18:40
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Here's my take:
3e/v3.5: Clerics experienced some sweeping changes in their versatility from prior editions. Domains and Turn/Rebuking feats gave them so many more avenues besides spells to persue that it's astonishing. Domains have given clerics that speciality feeling old Spheres used to because they're so diverse. Like you said Gaulf, a cleric with thivery can be a lot like a sneak. A cleric with Strength can be like a fighter. And a cleric with Magic can be like a arcanist. It's undoubtedly one of their best features and a big reason why people dip into the class to begin with.
Turn/Rebuke undead also saw a HUGE difference between AD&D and 3e (and v3.5) with the amount of things a cleric could do with it. At first, it's primary use was to destroy or control undead. But in campaigns that had little to no undead, their one class feature was practically useless. So modifying that to fuel spellcasting abilities, fighting abilities, and healing properties was a great idea (though often seen as broken or "overpowered").
No doubt, the 3rd Edition cleric was (and still is) the most versatile rendition of the class to date IMO.
4E: Here, clerics were pulled back down to earth a bit by having them focus more on their more "hallmark qualities". Being labled with the Leader Role, they gain the class feature "Healing Word" power that allow them to heal their allies 2/encounter. This was the first time they've been encouraged to heal allies with just a simple "minor action" instead of using their precious standard actions. They set themselves apart from other leaders by adding additional healing through Healer's Lore feature and they have the highest amount of Healing powers of any Leader.
They've also seen some benefits in controlling the battlfield. Powers that effect huge areas, damaging enemies, and helping allies became the primary reason to play one (aside from their immense flavor). They also gained a new concept, called Channel Divinity. Much like 3rd Edition's turn/rebuke undead, this feature can work specifically against undead creatures. But there's also another form, called Divine Fortune (which adds a +1 bonus to attack roll or saving throw). Other feats and class featurs from Paragon Paths can allow a cleric to obtain other Channel Divinity feats from other classes or feats.
Considered (my myself) the greatest aspect of the 4th Edition cleric is that they're no longer MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependant). In earlier editions, a cleric needed a moderate Strength and Constitution score because they were secondary tanks. They needed high Wisdom for their spells known and DC saves, and a decent Charisma because it's what fueled their Turn/Rebuke undead. That's a LOT to pay attention to, espically with campaigns that use point-buy. The 4E cleric has only Wisdom or Strength and Charisma and that's it. Wisdom or Strength will fuel all their attacks (whether ranged to melee) and Charisma picks up ALL the class riders. With the implemtation of the Warpriest (Essential cleric), they've also gained quite a few Wisdom-based melee attacks and a new Dragon article helps fuel the use of Simple weapons like the mace.
I think if I wanna play a powerful, diverse character with the feeling of a really off-the-wall approach then I'd go with the v3.5 cleric. Domain choices, the deity's favored weapon, and the versatility of their turn undead feature make them very, very powerful.
If I want to feel more like a party contributor, have the ability to heal allies, attack enemies, and control the battlefield (in 1 round if I so choose) then I'd play a 4E cleric. There's something fun about shooting radiant beams from my hands, then giving an ally a boost to their AC, then using a Mace to punish someone in the face that only 4E can provide without huge Min/Maxing. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
Edited by - Diffan on 31 Jul 2011 18:27:54 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2011 : 18:19:01
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Oddly enough, in 30-some years of play I've never actually run a pure, straight-up cleric. In 3.5, the closest I got was a mystic theurge, which was broken as all heck (in a non-optimal way) but still massively fun. Almost all of the cleric side I dedicated to damage and utility.
That said, the people who did run clerics with our group did seem very versatile, especially in the days when you could swap out any memorized spell for an emergency healing spell. We tended not to abuse that, but it was nice to have on the rare occasion we did need it.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2011 : 22:40:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
I was tempted to make a poll to see which edition people favored the most as far as clerics, but I thought I'd start with a simple thread first.
What fascinates me the most about the Cleric class, especially in the realms, is how Clerics has become rather versatile - especially in 3.X edition, depending upon which domains the Cleric takes - as a whole, without fully replacing a different class at the same time. In 3.X, cleric domains such as Magic, Trickery, or War can almost double as either an arcane spellcaster, a stealth-type class, or as a warrior-type class especially.
As far as my own homebrew cleric domains, I have actually been altering a few existing ones, either as far as domain spells or domain power in some cases to better fit a specific niche within a game and better represent the role such domains play.
However, I still want to touch base with you guys and see what you think of clerics and versatility in as many editions as any of you can fathom and see what you have to say about Realms clerics and their versatility.
I believe 3e/3.5e made clerics as powerful as they did in order to 'make up' for the lack of avenues in 3e/3.5e that'd be akin to multi-classing in 2e. Ie. a 3e cleric with Magic & another domain are the best you can do to get a character akin to a 2e multi-classed (not dual-classed) cleric/mage, but it's not nearly enough. 3e/3.5e is fun and all, but to me, it still isn't nearly as complete as 2e - which has it's problems, to be sure, but it's still the best existing edition for me, in all respects.
Anyways, I think versatility stems from having multiple high level ability scores. Ie- all clerics are required to have high wisdom scores, but a (single class) cleric who also has exceptional strength would make for a better fighter when the situation calls for melee combat, complimenting their primary skill of spellcasting better than the cleric who only has average or below average strength. |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 31 Jul 2011 22:42:46 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
755 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 03:33:04
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Great points in all, folks. Keep 'em coming, if you can. 
Edit: On a side note, allow me to turn anyone's attention (briefly) to my homebrew 3.5 Cleric domain thread and tell me if some of my latest ideas are decent or overpowered/broken. Link: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036 |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
Edited by - Galuf the Dwarf on 01 Aug 2011 04:06:52 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
755 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 04:06:33
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In addition, what do you guys say about the idea that in 3.5 edition (I don't know about 3.0) that vanilla Clerics only got 2 + Int modifier skill points at every level from 2nd level onward?
I thought that was a little too constricting and decided - at least in the case of my specialty priest PrCs - to give such a minimum of 4 + Int modifier skill points per level, and that the vanilla Cleric should get the same each level, just to allow them enough skill points to vary in skill-related roles from start to finish. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 04:26:47
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| I think it would really hit the vanilla clerics, since they have more skills than usual. If I understand correctly, by vanilla clerics you mention divine PrCs of each deity? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4495 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 04:39:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
In addition, what do you guys say about the idea that in 3.5 edition (I don't know about 3.0) that vanilla Clerics only got 2 + Int modifier skill points at every level from 2nd level onward?
I thought that was a little too constricting and decided - at least in the case of my specialty priest PrCs - to give such a minimum of 4 + Int modifier skill points per level, and that the vanilla Cleric should get the same each level, just to allow them enough skill points to vary in skill-related roles from start to finish.
Never really liked it at all. Since the cleric had, what 4?, Knowledge skills alone plus heal, spellcraft, craft, profession, etc.. they could've used at least 4 + Int. modifier. I've always made the solution easy as I never put any ranks into Knowledge (arcana), Craft, or Profession to begin with. I like the notion but those skills (espically craft and profession) never saw any use in my campaigns as we were to busy actually adventuring and doing important stuff to take 3 weeks of our time to make a nice masterwork suit of armor.
OR you could use Pathfinder's skill system which is pretty damn impressive compared to v3.5 and works much, MUCH better IMO. I also like the way Pathfinder does their domains too. For as much versatility and uniqueness they brought to the cleric, the fact that they only stacked with "Cleric" levels always sat wrong with me. It was like being punished for Prestige Classing (something I'd say 90% of clerics did). I re-worked it so it adjusted with Spellcaster ability than actual levels.
And by Vanilla clerics, I'm assuming he means ones that don't venture into a PrC and go straight cleric (no multiclassing, etc..).
You are, however, forgetting the Cleric Variant from Unearthed Arcana called the Cloistered Cleric that was a less militant priest that was more involved with the spellcasting side than wearing full-plate/shield and bashing undead with a mace. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
755 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 04:50:03
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1) Yeah, by "vanilla" I meant not multi-classed at all (including divine PrCs such as the specialty priests).
2) I'll be looking into Pathfinder soon enough. Probably around Christmas, partly since I've been saving money AND I now have a girlfriend in my life (surprise, surprise). Same with Unearthed Arcana. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 05:46:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
In addition, what do you guys say about the idea that in 3.5 edition (I don't know about 3.0) that vanilla Clerics only got 2 + Int modifier skill points at every level from 2nd level onward?
I thought that was a little too constricting and decided - at least in the case of my specialty priest PrCs - to give such a minimum of 4 + Int modifier skill points per level, and that the vanilla Cleric should get the same each level, just to allow them enough skill points to vary in skill-related roles from start to finish.
At first I didn't like it, but then I began to see where the 3e makers were coming from: and that is to say in RL, most pastors & ministers of any christian denomination aren't that bright at all, outside of preaching from the bible (and even that's debatable; how can one understand the book of life, if the only dominant thing in that one's life is the church?). And those that are somehow very proficient at something non-church related, are most likely severely lacking in the social skills, confidence, attitude, or belief that'd make this non-church proficiency be of any use to them in enhancing them personally in any effective way.
What's more, those who are sincere in the same faith, but have multiple above average ability scores, most likely would NOT limit themselves to the social, financial, and even (especially) spiritual limitations that come with the limitations of becoming a cleric of their faith. Those w/multiple above average ability scores would rather use his/her assets to maximize the quality of their own life, while still maintaining their faith & connection to their deity, and not let something as limiting as a church define them.
Really, the 3e cleric having such limiting skill points was more reflective of what's predominantly seen in RL; at least what's predominantly seen in every major city in North America.  And that is to say further that if the only thing someone has to offer to others is that of showing their god/goddess' love, then that person was socially or intellectually destitute to begin with. And thus they reflected this with the limiting skill points per level up in 3e/3.5e.
Which is why the clerics in my (2e) party are both multi-classed with other classes, and both of them ladies have above average ability scores in at least 4 of the 6 catagories, with both having high charisma and are equally good at their non-cleric class, and thus can never be solely defined by their faith, completely unlike the 'stupid' single class cleric! |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 01 Aug 2011 05:53:53 |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 06:01:09
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
At first I didn't like it, but then I began to see where the 3e makers were coming from: and that is to say in RL, most pastors & ministers of any christian denomination aren't that bright at all, outside of preaching from the bible (and even that's debatable; how can one understand the book of life, if the only dominant thing in that one's life is the church?). And those that are somehow very proficient at something non-church related, are most likely severely lacking in the social skills, confidence, attitude, or belief that'd make this non-church proficiency be of any use to them in enhancing them personally in any effective way.
Wow... judgmental and sweeping generalizations much? *facepalm* 
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 06:08:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
At first I didn't like it, but then I began to see where the 3e makers were coming from: and that is to say in RL, most pastors & ministers of any christian denomination aren't that bright at all, outside of preaching from the bible (and even that's debatable; how can one understand the book of life, if the only dominant thing in that one's life is the church?). And those that are somehow very proficient at something non-church related, are most likely severely lacking in the social skills, confidence, attitude, or belief that'd make this non-church proficiency be of any use to them in enhancing them personally in any effective way.
Wow... judgmental and sweeping generalizations much? *facepalm*
It's extensive personal experience, friend. When I was growing up, everyone at the church I grew up in wanted me to get into ministry (except my criminal pastor & his lackeys, of course; but that's another story and I'm not one to bear my life story), even though I had no inclination, desire, pull etc. to put my life in that direction. My best friend from Ohio also had similar experiences as me, his friends too, and feel the same way I do (and have friends throughout America who've experienced what we have), that they want to use our talents for the church's gain, all because they never developed a life outside their church for themselves.
And I started my post by saying 'most,' as in not 'all.' Thus I'm not as judgmental as you paint me. I simply displayed a true fact, which I reckon to be the root for why the 3e/3.5e cleric seems to be shafted regarding skill points at level up.
Which is why I like 2e better than 3e/3.5e: the ability scores allow the cleric, single-class, dual-class or multi-class, to rise above the norm, and not be one-dimensional, or boxed in by their faith/church.
Hope that clears things up. |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 01 Aug 2011 06:14:30 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
755 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 13:53:49
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| So, does anyone have any reasoning why within the realms that Clerics should have 2 + Int modifier skill points? |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
Edited by - Galuf the Dwarf on 01 Aug 2011 13:54:02 |
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Gouf
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 15:25:41
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3.5 turned me off. SO we went back to 2nd ed.
I felt 2E still had a great deal of diversity in it's spheres and deities. And it can lead to a lot of additional roleplay interaction. Because of different beliefs and different spheres, you can have a party with multiple clerics of different gods. They each bring different things to the table and can have radically different approaches to resolving issues.
The human cleric of Tyr will want to work within the law and find a just and equitable solution. The cleric of Heala Brightaxe, will instead have a tactical plan to wax the bad guy with minimal casualties and move on. Etc... |
"Why is the torch burning blue?" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 18:09:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Gouf
3.5 turned me off. SO we went back to 2nd ed.
I felt 2E still had a great deal of diversity in it's spheres and deities. And it can lead to a lot of additional roleplay interaction. Because of different beliefs and different spheres, you can have a party with multiple clerics of different gods. They each bring different things to the table and can have radically different approaches to resolving issues.
The human cleric of Tyr will want to work within the law and find a just and equitable solution. The cleric of Heala Brightaxe, will instead have a tactical plan to wax the bad guy with minimal casualties and move on. Etc...
I loved the specialty priest concept of 2E. The one and only single-class cleric I played was a specialty priest of Lathander, whose behavior was based on Charles Emerson Winchester III from M*A*S*H. Aside from him, all I'd tried on the clerical side was a dwarven fighter-cleric (also in 2E). |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2011 : 20:28:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Be that as it may, Blade, I'd prefer that we refrain from such real-world religious commentary here at Candlekeep.
Let's keep it focused on the Realms, eh? 
You & Wooly are very polite & wise, and thus I'll gladly abide by your recommendation (and must also say I tried hard to keep it Realms related!). It's wisdom I'm sure even Ned Flanders could agree with (Sorry! I couldn't resist! Punish me not!).
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
So, does anyone have any reasoning why within the realms that Clerics should have 2 + Int modifier skill points?
Hmmm. Well there's no hard & fast rule in Realmslore that says "Cleric b 'toopid." It's simply the 3e/3.5e AD&D game mechanic.
It could be that each church in Faerun has so much competition in competing with eachother & also competing with the commerical sector (for patron's coins), that leading church officials lose sight of the big picture, and thus lead their subjects focus exclusively on wisdom-enhancing activities at the expense of intelligence-enhancing activities.
(Sigh) The Realms needs more good-aligned multi-classed cleric/mages. Let's go raid the place where all them Avariel are hiding, and capture them, and mold them into what we know is the best way moving forward! |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 01 Aug 2011 20:33:34 |
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Clerics in the Realms and versatility.
