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Jelennet
Learned Scribe
Russia
131 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 00:01:00
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Here is a qoute from Cunningham's Elfsong:
"How does it happen that you venture so far from clan and hearth?" he asked. "With your numbers dwindling and dwarven females so few, I would think you'd be home doing your duty by breeding little miners."
"Have a care how you speak," Danilo said in a low voice. "The lady dwarf is not some dairy animal."
Morgalla leveled her brown eyes at Elaith. "Elves don't seem to be doing so good in that regard, neither. Lotta half-elves around, but I notice most of 'em got elf dames and human sires. Ain't nothing wrong with your women, that much we know."
Is that true? That most half-elves have human fathers and elven mothers? Why? For what reasons? Do male elves find human girls so bland and unattractive that they never marry them? Even the Seven Sisters? Well, I remember Jarlaxle and Drizzt and Coran from "Baldur's gate" game. They found human women quite attrative.
I should say that I've somewhat dissapointed in Cunningham because I'm a human woman and she is a human woman and it seems like she has such a lowly opinion about human women.
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 00:22:37
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No, that's just the characters' personal observations and opinions, it has little to do with what the author believes herself. Cunningham, remember, is a master at characterization, and she writes characters who even espouse evil thoughts and opinions. No one would suggest that the author shared those opinions.
As to whether it's "true" or not that "most half-elves have human fathers and elven mothers", that's just the character being nasty out of spite. It's the reverse case (elf father and human mother) for some half-elves (e.g. see the Floshin half-elves of Daggerford), and even the case that some have parents who were both half-elves themselves. Cities like Silverymoon tend to have many half-elves, where for more than one generation it's been half-elf plus half-elf types of pairings.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 15 Jul 2011 00:26:43 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 00:57:47
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To echo Eltheron, there is Morgalla, and there is Elaine. Two different people. 
I suspect that it's just as common to have human/elf or elf/human parentage, as well as half-elves with other half-elves. Heck, half-elves can have half-elf children with full-blooded elves or with humans.
Certainly some elves have strong opinions on the matter of elven/human pairings, particularly old traditionalist elves who would frown on their "refined daughters being carried off by those hairy ruffians," and would view human man/elf woman as the default setting for how a half-elf child would come about (as a result of human barbarism). This may be an example of that.
Also, elves are often described as beautiful, refined, and extremely attractive. Of course a lot of human men would go for elven women to some extent, though I'm pretty sure there are as many human women who'd love to get their hands (ahem) on one of those sexy elf lads (Gods, do they age well!). 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 05:04:08
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| I personally suspect that outside of fitting the needs of the characters and story, the parent gender assignments might be a sort of call-out on the most common/popular choices made by players who generate half-elven characters. My players seem to invariably select that particular combination of parents rather than the opposite, or at the least seem to make the assumption that the elven segment of their blood somehow comes from attractive elfy females. Similarly, they most often assume that all half-orc crossbreeding is the result of very male orcs sired upon human women. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 05:16:52
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| I think that passage is much more Morgalla trying (and succeeding) to nettle Elaith than any sort of scholarly examination of the types of half-elf-generating pairings. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 06:01:04
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Rule #1 about reading fiction: Never judge an author by the dispositions of the characters she or he create (ie- Bram Stoker isn't Dracula, nor is he Johnathan Harker).  |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 07:50:53
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| I think you cannot change the fact that the elves are relatively very comely and graceful. If you see fat elven woman, sue me. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Jelennet
Learned Scribe
Russia
131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2011 : 16:44:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
I think you cannot change the fact that the elves are relatively very comely and graceful. If you see fat elven woman, sue me.
Hmmm...
There was an elf in "El in Myth Drannor" who was described as burly or almost burly...
By the way another question about language. In the same book Srin'shee is described (when Mystra returned her youth):
"The flames seemed to be slowly sinking away from the ceiling; had she appeared through it? Wonderingly she ran her hands up and down her body. Her gown, with its amulets and spell-gems—yes, even those woven into her hair—were gone, but her body was smooth and FULL and young again!"
The publishing house translated this word as plump or a little fat (like Christina Hendrix). I was wondering: is that the right translation?
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Edited by - Jelennet on 15 Jul 2011 16:44:33 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 00:42:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Jelennet
Morgalla leveled her brown eyes at Elaith. "Elves don't seem to be doing so good in that regard, neither. Lotta half-elves around, but I notice most of 'em got elf dames and human sires. Ain't nothing wrong with your women, that much we know."
Is that true? That most half-elves have human fathers and elven mothers? Why? For what reasons? Do male elves find human girls so bland and unattractive that they never marry them?
Naturally, it varies. E.g. one Glarald Starym even made his elfy consort plumper for no better reason than his taste. Not that this did him much good...
But as she said, it's specifically about male elves. Why you are trying to read between the lines before reading in lines?
quote:
Originally posted by Jelennet
Even the Seven Sisters?
They (not counting Qilué) may be human in less number of ways than they aren't.
quote:
Originally posted by Jelennet
Well, I remember Jarlaxle and Drizzt and Coran from "Baldur's gate" game. They found human women quite attrative.
Well, duh - thenagain, they aren't typical, to put it mildly.
quote:
Originally posted by Jelennet
I should say that I've somewhat dissapointed in Cunningham because I'm a human woman and she is a human woman and it seems like she has such a lowly opinion about human women.
This picks my purely theoretical curiousity on the account of what you'd say if one of her characters dropped some joke about golems.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 04:27:08
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| In RotAW, Galaeron, an elf, found Vala, a human woman, attractive. And as a human woman, I'd totally go for a male elf ;) |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 05:13:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Jelennet
quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
I think you cannot change the fact that the elves are relatively very comely and graceful. If you see fat elven woman, sue me.
Hmmm...
There was an elf in "El in Myth Drannor" who was described as burly or almost burly...
By the way another question about language. In the same book Srin'shee is described (when Mystra returned her youth):
"The flames seemed to be slowly sinking away from the ceiling; had she appeared through it? Wonderingly she ran her hands up and down her body. Her gown, with its amulets and spell-gems—yes, even those woven into her hair—were gone, but her body was smooth and FULL and young again!"
The publishing house translated this word as plump or a little fat (like Christina Hendrix). I was wondering: is that the right translation?
I think "FULL" meant that she once more had the slender curves of a healthy woman in her prime, as opposed to the thinness that so often marks the elderly. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 05:14:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I think that passage is much more Morgalla trying (and succeeding) to nettle Elaith than any sort of scholarly examination of the types of half-elf-generating pairings.
That's my interpretation, as well.
Personally, I'd think that there would be more elven fathers of half-elves than elven mothers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 05:32:19
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Would an elven woman birthing a half-elven child lead to complications? Due to the larger size of a half-elven baby to an elven baby?
If so, perhaps there is merit to thinking that there would more frequently be elven fathers of half-elven children... Just a thought. |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 06:43:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
Would an elven woman birthing a half-elven child lead to complications? Due to the larger size of a half-elven baby to an elven baby?
I think that would depend on the individual physique of the elven woman. That, and the way in which the half-elven child has developed during the pregnancy.
After all, half-elves are usually either more human than elf, or more elf than human. So if we're talking a baby that's more elven, then I really can't see any complications arising during the pregnancy.
With a more human-developed half-elven child though, perhaps the local priest of Angharradh can assist with spells that ease the suffering of the mother through the pregnancy.
quote:
If so, perhaps there is merit to thinking that there would more frequently be elven fathers of half-elven children... Just a thought.
In the most legitimate cases of conception, though, between an elf and a human, wouldn't that really come down to the possibility of love between two distinct examples of two races?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 12:24:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I think that passage is much more Morgalla trying (and succeeding) to nettle Elaith than any sort of scholarly examination of the types of half-elf-generating pairings.
That's my interpretation, as well.
Personally, I'd think that there would be more elven fathers of half-elves than elven mothers.
Well if you go with some of the older lore, Tolkien, Durkin, Fitch, Endle, then it was almost always elf male and human female. Although Tolkien did have both. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12091 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 16:36:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I think that passage is much more Morgalla trying (and succeeding) to nettle Elaith than any sort of scholarly examination of the types of half-elf-generating pairings.
That's my interpretation, as well.
Personally, I'd think that there would be more elven fathers of half-elves than elven mothers.
Only in a world where love was the reason for the majority of half-elves. I obviously don't have any "numbers" to back up what I'm about to say, but I'd imagine a good proportion of half-elves come about from rape by human males. Given human fertility, their intercourse with elves MAY be more likely to come to fruition (then again, it could be argued that its crossing racial boundaries and thereby less likely... its all theoretical, so who can say for true). Anyway, just my 2 cents. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12091 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 16:40:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Emma Drake
Would an elven woman birthing a half-elven child lead to complications? Due to the larger size of a half-elven baby to an elven baby?
I think that would depend on the individual physique of the elven woman. That, and the way in which the half-elven child has developed during the pregnancy.
After all, half-elves are usually either more human than elf, or more elf than human. So if we're talking a baby that's more elven, then I really can't see any complications arising during the pregnancy.
With a more human-developed half-elven child though, perhaps the local priest of Angharradh can assist with spells that ease the suffering of the mother through the pregnancy.
quote:
If so, perhaps there is merit to thinking that there would more frequently be elven fathers of half-elven children... Just a thought.
In the most legitimate cases of conception, though, between an elf and a human, wouldn't that really come down to the possibility of love between two distinct examples of two races?
We're also not talking a huge size difference... human females are like 5 1/2' feet tall... elf females are like 5 feet tall? It wouldn't be like the difference between say a human and halfling pairing up... or a human and a giant pairing up. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 17:26:06
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Its part of the age-old stereotype (amongst demi-humans), "Once you go human you never go back".
Make of that what you will. 
Unfortunately, this is often what human females say in regards to humanoids. 
Seriously though, I have always taken it as the old, bored elven women wanting to spice things up. In other words, they are 'slumming'. I think the male elves might be a little more discerning, or perhaps just better at maintaining control at the crucial moment (you don't think the meditative, philosophical elves don't practice tantra?) In the case of the females, though, I think they have a tendency to fall in love (for however short the human life appears to them). In the case of males - as it is with most men - they are able to separate their sexual urges completely from their emotions. Its basically just a 'night on the town' for them.
That means any children sired by male elves would be raised in human communities, with human tendencies (so if the ears get covered, most are probably mistaken for light-framed humans). The ones given birth by elven females would be raised by elves, and probably leave as soon as they are old enough to (because they never feel fully accepted). These would be the more noticeable branch of half-elves, hence the false perception.
These are my own thoughts on the matter, and how I perceive things to be in the background of my game worlds. YMMV.
In canon, IIRC, Khelben's dad was an elf, so I suppose he is one of those exceptions (or perhaps not, since he obviously follows in his human parent's footsteps).
I also don't use half-elves in my homebrew world. I am not saying they can't exist, its just that my elves consider humans less then animals, and wouldn't 'breed' with them on-purpose. This is how I avoid the whole 'half' situation in my world (which I hope to self-publish some day). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Sep 2012 17:27:48 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 19:14:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Only in a world where love was the reason for the majority of half-elves. I obviously don't have any "numbers" to back up what I'm about to say, but I'd imagine a good proportion of half-elves come about from rape by human males. Given human fertility, their intercourse with elves MAY be more likely to come to fruition (then again, it could be argued that its crossing racial boundaries and thereby less likely... its all theoretical, so who can say for true). Anyway, just my 2 cents.
What does love have to do with it? It's quite possible that an elven male, leaving elven communities behind to sate his wanderlust, is going to happily take advantage of any willing female company, whether elven or human. We seem to see more elven males adventuring in human lands, so they're going to have more opportunity for creating half-elves.
Even for adventuring elven females, they can get pregnant from a one-night stand.
And once an elven female is pregnant, she's not going to be making any more half-elves at least until the current one is born -- an elven male has no such limitations. An elven male could, in theory, father several half-elves in less than a year's time, giving a sufficient supply of partners and some good timing. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 19:15:32
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| And here I thought she was weedling Elaith with "elven male impotence". |
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Emma Drake
Learned Scribe
USA
206 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 21:27:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And once an elven female is pregnant, she's not going to be making any more half-elves at least until the current one is born -- an elven male has no such limitations. An elven male could, in theory, father several half-elves in less than a year's time, giving a sufficient supply of partners and some good timing.
I had not thought of this. That's a good point! |
"I am always here, all about you. You are never truly alone. I flow wherever life flows, wherever winds blow and water runs and the sun and moon chase each other, for there is magic in all things."
- Mystra (Ed Greenwood, Silverfall) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12091 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 21:48:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Only in a world where love was the reason for the majority of half-elves. I obviously don't have any "numbers" to back up what I'm about to say, but I'd imagine a good proportion of half-elves come about from rape by human males. Given human fertility, their intercourse with elves MAY be more likely to come to fruition (then again, it could be argued that its crossing racial boundaries and thereby less likely... its all theoretical, so who can say for true). Anyway, just my 2 cents.
What does love have to do with it? It's quite possible that an elven male, leaving elven communities behind to sate his wanderlust, is going to happily take advantage of any willing female company, whether elven or human. We seem to see more elven males adventuring in human lands, so they're going to have more opportunity for creating half-elves.
Even for adventuring elven females, they can get pregnant from a one-night stand.
And once an elven female is pregnant, she's not going to be making any more half-elves at least until the current one is born -- an elven male has no such limitations. An elven male could, in theory, father several half-elves in less than a year's time, giving a sufficient supply of partners and some good timing.
Very good point that I had not considered. That would make sense that its the adventurers creating alot of these half-elves and leaving them behind to be fatherless. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2012 : 23:59:29
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| Depends on either how lusty the elf (male or female) is, and whether they can stand the thought of sleeping with a human. Some elves would not want to pass on thier genes to any but another elf, while others are fine with a human lover. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Andrekan
Seeker
65 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 01:57:42
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This includes Half-Drow, in a sense, they are Half-Elves also but then One has to wonder why we do not refer to Half-Wild, Half-Wood, Half-Sun, Half-Moon and Half-Aquatic rather than Common Half-Elves.
What possibilities these Half-Elf combination receive in traits which might be keyed to certain forms of High-Elven Magic and Artifacts.
Ah, but now that is a can of worms for thought.
For if the other half be Human: Calishite, Chondathan, Damaran, Mulan, Tethyrian, Rashemi, Illuskan, or Netherese. I'm sure there are some great Background stories for characters. What traits might be dominate or recessive?
Then there are the possibilities of Half-Drow and Half-Sun Elves to have children together if not barren.
Could we have a bronze obsidian skin, golden flecked pale eyes, and coppery white hair?
Twould be very rare but possible in my mind. |
"Those two talk only of drink, riches, women, brawling, and magic, so ye've a one in five chance..." Quote from "Elminster in Hell" |
Edited by - Andrekan on 20 Sep 2012 02:01:36 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12091 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2012 : 15:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Andrekan
This includes Half-Drow, in a sense, they are Half-Elves also but then One has to wonder why we do not refer to Half-Wild, Half-Wood, Half-Sun, Half-Moon and Half-Aquatic rather than Common Half-Elves.
What possibilities these Half-Elf combination receive in traits which might be keyed to certain forms of High-Elven Magic and Artifacts.
Ah, but now that is a can of worms for thought.
For if the other half be Human: Calishite, Chondathan, Damaran, Mulan, Tethyrian, Rashemi, Illuskan, or Netherese. I'm sure there are some great Background stories for characters. What traits might be dominate or recessive?
Then there are the possibilities of Half-Drow and Half-Sun Elves to have children together if not barren.
Could we have a bronze obsidian skin, golden flecked pale eyes, and coppery white hair?
Twould be very rare but possible in my mind.
Half elves of two elven cultures become either one culture or the other true-born. Genetics don't seem to come into play to "mix" the two. Based upon that, it may be that Half-elves from varying human stock only allow for a certain amount of their genetics to apply (thus it doesn't really matter which kind of human it is, but the type of elf it is would matter). It has certainly been shown that half-drow are different than half-elves and half-sea elves. I'd imagine that there's something in elven genetics that allows one genetic code to totally subsume the other, but somehow human dna is resistant to this subsuming. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Parents of half-elves?
