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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 09:47:27
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I've been pretty handily avoiding anything 4E related (unfortunately, that includes the new Realms  ) but once upon a time I read Unclean, and I absolutely hate leaving a story unfinished, so I picked it up again, re-read it, and moved on to finish the trilogy.
Little did I know that the story takes place during the time-shift, but regardless, I found out, and something has been bothering the hell out of me:
Why aren't liches effected by Mystra's death??
The spells used to control undead went haywire the moment Mystra died, but the magic sustaining the unnatural life of the undead was completely untouched! And I can't wrap my head around a suitable reason for this.
Any theories?
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"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 10:45:05
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| There are several inconsistencies in how the Spellplague happened. It's one of the reasons I'm not a fan of it. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4489 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 12:58:44
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It states somewhere in the FRCG (or it might have been else where) that things already infused with magic were largely untouched, like magical items (*gough*phylactery*cough*). It's not as if all magic ceased for a time during Mystra's death or during the Spellplague, just ran rampant for a bit. And I'm sure many liches were greatly effected by the spellplague, much like wizards and other arcane spellcasters. But liches can't actually die, and so I think they fared better in the long run.
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Abenabin Gimblescrew
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 14:29:35
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Well, as for a theory, all I can say is that since their are deities that hold the portfolios of undeath they kept creatures of undeath falling pray to the negative effects. However, I think after the magic ritual is complete for the transformation into undeath they are no longer sustained by magic, but by the negative energy plane...
As for the Undead Gone Wild! part, I haven't the foggiest. As far as I can tell if it was sustained magic, such as Control Undead, those undead currently under the affects of that spell were freed. Though as I noted above I think once you do the ritual of undeath all undead then become sustained not by magic, but by negative energy drawn from the negative energy plane. At least that is how I have always interpreted it except for the Undying template that are positive energy undead. As far as I know Mystra just maintained the Weave by being one with it, but magic in and of itself, at least in 4e, has always been around. It is just Mystra and the Weave was a way to regulate/channel it safely. I may be misquoting that greatly. Its been ages since I looked at the 4e FRCS, which is tucked away in a box somewhere. |
Invention is the key to staying ahead of the competition. |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 15:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
I've been pretty handily avoiding anything 4E related (unfortunately, that includes the new Realms ) but once upon a time I read Unclean, and I absolutely hate leaving a story unfinished, so I picked it up again, re-read it, and moved on to finish the trilogy.
Little did I know that the story takes place during the time-shift, but regardless, I found out, and something has been bothering the hell out of me:
Why aren't liches effected by Mystra's death??
The spells used to control undead went haywire the moment Mystra died, but the magic sustaining the unnatural life of the undead was completely untouched! And I can't wrap my head around a suitable reason for this.
Any theories?
There was a secret meeting where they handed out +20 plot armor, and Elminster, the Seven Sisters, and everyone in Halruaa never got the memo.
Personally, I think the memo went out in two batches: <group: evil> got the email, but <group: good guys> never did.
Edit: ...and that novel, Unclean, yeesh. When the main character has sufficient plot armor to avoid any personal injury whatsoever and never has any bad things happening to him (not to mention escapes the bad guys several times easily), yet he screws up multiple attempts to save his girlfriend... I had to stop reading it.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 08 Jul 2011 15:16:14 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 16:49:08
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All (admittedly bemusing) snark aside, pretty much what Diffan said.
Liches are tied to their phylacteries, which are already enchanted magic items, which were a category of magic that was largely unchanged by the Spellplague. Unless those liches were actively using their phylacteries at the moment a wave of Spellplague washed over them (in which case who knows the effects?), they were probably unscathed.
This is not to say that the Spellplague couldn't have changed or otherwise affected some liches (some and not others, depending on circumstance), and it certainly interfered with their magical abilities by reworking how magic functions. At the very least, most liches would have had to relearn magic just like everyone else, so it stands to reason they would disappear for a time after the Spellplague in order to bring themselves back up to to fighting potency.
Also, who's to say that some phylacteries didn't absorb some of the blue fire and result in Plaguechanged Liches (there's actually one of those in my novel Downshadow).
I apologize on behalf of logic for the Spellplague not being consistent. The way I see it, the whole event was unprecedented and pretty much random and didn't follow set rules, no matter how much we'd like it to have done so. And seriously, so little of it is left unexplained purposefully, so as to allow us to speculate and make up our own rules for our own games.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 17:27:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
It states somewhere in the FRCG (or it might have been else where) that things already infused with magic were largely untouched, like magical items (*gough*phylactery*cough*). It's not as if all magic ceased for a time during Mystra's death or during the Spellplague, just ran rampant for a bit. And I'm sure many liches were greatly effected by the spellplague, much like wizards and other arcane spellcasters. But liches can't actually die, and so I think they fared better in the long run.
-And, ironically, in the same FRCG, it says that the Spellplague was "drawn" to places/things of magical power, and I'd consider a Lich one of those, being infused with magic that sustains and perpetuates their existences and all.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I apologize on behalf of logic for the Spellplague not being consistent. The way I see it, the whole event was unprecedented and pretty much random and didn't follow set rules, no matter how much we'd like it to have done so.
-Well, not really. We have two precedents, technically. When Mystryl killed herself, and Netheril Fell, and when Helm killed Mystra during the Time of Troubles. Both times, the goddess of magic was dead for X amount of time before reforming herself. In the case of the Time of Troubles, an asterisk should be attached to the ensuing chaos because the Time of Troubles was a special case- Mystra was still goddess of magic, but she wasn't, at the same time. That leaves us with Mystryl's death as precedent. When she committed suicide, the Weave ceased to exist when she ceased to exist, and magic stopped working for the 1-5 minutes (depending on which 2e rules you use, the normal ones [5 minutes] or the advanced ones [1 minute]) she was dead.
-Anyway, as a rule, Neo, treat it as a massive Wild Magic Zone. It's unpredictable, and anything can happen, with no rhyme or reason to it. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 08 Jul 2011 17:35:46 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4489 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 17:50:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Well, not really. We have two precedents, technically. When Mystryl killed herself, and Netheril Fell, and when Helm killed Mystra during the Time of Troubles. Both times, the goddess of magic was dead for X amount of time before reforming herself. In the case of the Time of Troubles, an asterisk should be attached to the ensuing chaos because the Time of Troubles was a special case- Mystra was still goddess of magic, but she wasn't, at the same time. That leaves us with Mystryl's death as precedent. When she committed suicide, the Weave ceased to exist when she ceased to exist, and magic stopped working for the 1-5 minutes (depending on which 2e rules you use, the normal ones [5 minutes] or the advanced ones [1 minute]) she was dead.
Actually, we now have three. 1). Mystryl committed suicide (all magic fails). 2). Mystra is killed in an avatar-like state yet still goddess (magic has a wild and rampant effect). 3). Mystra is murdered on her home plane (the spellplague occurs and changes the face of Faerûn). All three involve her death. All three have different circumstances as to how she died. All three have different outcomes. So actually the set precedent is that it will probably never follow the same result. Also, I think it's a bit silly to think that magic works like math or physics. It doesn't because it's magic. To think so, I feel, greatly diminished the feel of it being mystical or fancy and just another mundane tool.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Anyway, as a rule, Neo, treat it as a massive Wild Magic Zone. It's unpredictable, and anything can happen, with no rhyme or reason to it.
I definitly concur. |
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Edited by - Diffan on 08 Jul 2011 17:51:33 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 18:06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Actually, we now have three. 1). Mystryl committed suicide (all magic fails). 2). Mystra is killed in an avatar-like state yet still goddess (magic has a wild and rampant effect). 3). Mystra is murdered on her home plane (the spellplague occurs and changes the face of Faerûn). All three involve her death. All three have different circumstances as to how she died. All three have different outcomes. So actually the set precedent is that it will probably never follow the same result. Also, I think it's a bit silly to think that magic works like math or physics. It doesn't because it's magic. To think so, I feel, greatly diminished the feel of it being mystical or fancy and just another mundane tool.
-Of course magic works like physics: They are physics! All physics are are the natural processes in which the world works, magic being a part of that.
-The circumstances of Death 1 and Death 3 are different (ignoring Death 2, because of the Time of Troubles are exacerbating circumstances), but to say that the results shouldn't pan out the same does not make sense. Still dealing with magic, if Wizard 1 performs certain incantations, and then Wizard 2 performs the same exact incantations, regardless of where they are, what they're doing, and whatever other variables, they're going to produce the same spell. If you get an atomic scientist who is being paid nicely to split an atom in France, for the express purpose of building a nuclear power plant, is not the same exact process achieved as the scientist in Iran, who is being pressured into doing what he is doing by the government and his family, who is doing the work so that a nuclear weapon can be made? The end results are all the same- Mystra is being killed, the Weave is ceasing to exist.
-At the end of the day, it comes down to the absence of the Weave. Mystra is the Weave. We know that the Weave provides for the existence of magic, and that in places where the Weave is not present, magic cannot exist (ignoring, for a moment, non-Weave based forms of magic). The first time she died, the Weave stopped existing over Abeir-Toril, and as such, magic stopped working. Magic did not start working again until Mystra reformed, and the Weave came back into being. Ignoring the Time of Troubles, logic dictates that, once more, when Mystra dies, the Weave stops existing. We know this from the FRCG to be true- the Weave (and Shadow Weave) collapsed. Without a Weave, magical processes should not have been able to occur, and a Spellplague- magic going wild!- is very much out of left field without any rhyme or reason to it. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4489 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 18:57:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Of course magic works like physics: They are physics! All physics are are the natural processes in which the world works, magic being a part of that.
Except that it doesn't, because it doesn't truly exist (in the sense of its abilities in FR). You’re trying to base continuity on something that's not really quantifiable. Using real-world physics is one thing, because we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it works. But magic "works" through one or a few people's interpretation of events (which is what I believe a novel is). We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point buddy.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The circumstances of Death 1 and Death 3 are different (ignoring Death 2, because of the Time of Troubles are exacerbating circumstances), but to say that the results shouldn't pan out the same does not make sense. Still dealing with magic, if Wizard 1 performs certain incantations, and then Wizard 2 performs the same exact incantations, regardless of where they are, what they're doing, and whatever other variables, they're going to produce the same spell
.....
The end results are all the same- Mystra is being killed, the Weave is ceasing to exist.
It makes sense because we don't know what effect her being on her home-plane has. We don't know what effects caused her death and what she died of might have drastic consequences (don't say Cyric hit her on the head, that's just one interpretation).
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-At the end of the day, it comes down to the absence of the Weave. Mystra is the Weave. We know that the Weave provides for the existence of magic, and that in places where the Weave is not present, magic cannot exist (ignoring, for a moment, non-Weave based forms of magic). The first time she died, the Weave stopped existing over Abeir-Toril, and as such, magic stopped working. Magic did not start working again until Mystra reformed, and the Weave came back into being. Ignoring the Time of Troubles, logic dictates that, once more, when Mystra dies, the Weave stops existing. We know this from the FRCG to be true- the Weave (and Shadow Weave) collapsed. Without a Weave, magical processes should not have been able to occur, and a Spellplague- magic going wild!- is very much out of left field without any rhyme or reason to it.
Yea, I don't believe that the Weave was ever needed to have magic on the planet. Whether is canon or not (which I don't really give much though to) I dont' think magic exists because a deity exists. To tie something So powerful, so setting-broad, and so diverse as magic to one god is a poor design IMO and a reason I haven't done so in the Realms. Guess thats why I'm cool with the spellplague. |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 19:50:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are several inconsistencies in how the Spellplague happened. It's one of the reasons I'm not a fan of it.
Most of these so called 'inconsistencies' are really just individual fans opining that things didn't go as they would have wanted, in the aftermath of Mystra's (short-term) 'death'. I have yet to see anything inconsistent about the Spellplague and its effects.
(I had originally offered the caveat, 'in my opinion', to the comments above. However, since other posters chose to offer their comments as blanket facts, I chose to do the same.)
If anyone can offer an example of an inconsistency, I would love to hear it. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 19:52:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
We know that the Weave provides for the existence of magic, and that in places where the Weave is not present, magic cannot exist (ignoring, for a moment, non-Weave based forms of magic).
So, although magic does exist without the Weave, magic can't exist without the Weave?
Which edition was "full of inconsitencies" again? |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 08 Jul 2011 19:53:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 20:24:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There are several inconsistencies in how the Spellplague happened. It's one of the reasons I'm not a fan of it.
Most of these so called 'inconsistencies' are really just individual fans opining that things didn't go as they would have wanted, in the aftermath of Mystra's (short-term) 'death'. I have yet to see anything inconsistent about the Spellplague and its effects.
(I had originally offered the caveat, 'in my opinion', to the comments above. However, since other posters chose to offer their comments as blanket facts, I chose to do the same.)
If anyone can offer an example of an inconsistency, I would love to hear it.
No you wouldn't. We had this discussion months ago, and you ignored every inconsistency that was offered. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 20:47:00
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Not to come down hard on this point, but I'm a little exasperated. Sorry! 
Ignoring the whole "it's magic" defense (which I find very valid), let's discuss this in scientific terms.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-The circumstances of Death 1 and Death 3 are different (ignoring Death 2, because of the Time of Troubles are exacerbating circumstances), but to say that the results shouldn't pan out the same does not make sense.
...
The end results are all the same- Mystra is being killed, the Weave is ceasing to exist.
What happened in 1385 may superficially be similar to what happened in earlier instances of Mystra's death, but it's the height of scientific error to claim that that's the only consideration. You're assuming that Mystra's death (which has never done the same thing, even before the Spellplague) is supposed to have a set effect, and you're assuming the circumstances make no difference? That's just bad science.
Let's talk about location (prime material *sculpted by magic* vs. dweomerheart *formed entirely of magic*): situation A, you light a stick of dynamite in a controlled environment (such as out in an empty field); situation B, you do the exact same thing, but you put it next to a huge pile of more dynamite. Which is going to have the bigger boom?
Let's talk about different power base on different planes (prime material *avatar* vs. home plane *self*): situation A, you light a stick of dynamite; situation B, you light a keg of dynamite. Same question.
I'm not saying those two sample explanations are true or what WotC's going for with the Spellplague. I'm just asserting that one should consider other variables besides "we've seen something like this happen before and it didn't do that, so [snortle]."
I'm just wondering how you can claim that something is contradictory based on "physics" or "science" and yet at the same time entirely gloss over simple basic scientific process concepts like the environment and circumstances?
There isn't any room for doubt here?
Cheers
P.S. Let me reiterate that I'm not trying to call anyone out or be sharp here, nor do I overly care about defending the Spellplague or the crazy. I just find this "it's inconsistent because it is!" attitude inexplicable and I'd like a coherent explanation. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 21:40:30
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**ponders the wisdom of arguing science in a game where giant space hamsters are canon**
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Neo2151
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jul 2011 : 23:27:58
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I'm curious; where is this idea that Mystryl wasn't at home, in Dweomerheart, coming from?
As the goddess of magic, she's privy to everything related to magic regardless of where it's happening in her sphere of control (ie: realmspace.) I see absolutely no reason to assume Mystryl ever had to leave Dweomerheart to kill herself and stop Karsus from doing what he was doing.
Now, the way I've decided to separate Mystryl's death from Midnight's death (and the reasoning behind the different effects of each) is to just convince myself that Mystryl wasn't required to split her power way back then. So when she died, she was *actually* dead, where as in Midnight's case, when she was killed, she still technically existed in some of her Chosen. Which (true or not) is good enough for me to explain why there was this "spellplague" and not "magic ceases to exist... again."
But, that's getting a little away from my point.
As far as regular undead go (zombies, skeletons, vampires, etc.) I can easily see how Abenabin Gimblescrew's argument for negative energy makes total sense.
Except for liches, who aren't fueled by negative energy, but are instead fueled by their (magic-powered) phylactary.
Someone asked for an inconsistency? Spellplague ignores permanent magic effects? (Just because WotC said so?) C'mon now... |
"Come looking for me, and I will blast you to dust, and then lay waste to all your descendants, ancestors, and the realm you came from, every last tree and stone of it. Why? Well, it's what I usually do."
-Baerendra Riverhand on The Story of Spellfire |
Edited by - Neo2151 on 08 Jul 2011 23:28:34 |
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Abenabin Gimblescrew
Seeker
USA
75 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2011 : 00:54:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
As far as regular undead go (zombies, skeletons, vampires, etc.) I can easily see how Abenabin Gimblescrew's argument for negative energy makes total sense.
Except for liches, who aren't fueled by negative energy, but are instead fueled by their (magic-powered) phylactary.
Ah, I guess that makes sense. I just reread the criteria on becoming a lich and you have to be a minimum 12th level caster (in 3.5) plus need the phylactary. I concede that point to you, Neo.
I usually over look liches since they seem to be used so often I tend to avoid them. I think they are more rare in my campaigns than dragons. |
Invention is the key to staying ahead of the competition. |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2011 : 03:50:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Neo2151
I'm curious; where is this idea that Mystryl wasn't at home, in Dweomerheart, coming from?
As the goddess of magic, she's privy to everything related to magic regardless of where it's happening in her sphere of control (ie: realmspace.) I see absolutely no reason to assume Mystryl ever had to leave Dweomerheart to kill herself and stop Karsus from doing what he...
Someone asked for an inconsistency? Spellplague ignores permanent magic effects? (Just because WotC said so?) C'mon now...
In version 3.5, Mystra had remote sensing 18 years in the past and future, unless blocked by a Power of equal Rank.
The 'Plague did effect permanent magical items, per the Countdown articles and FRCG. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2011 : 07:24:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Except that it doesn't, because it doesn't truly exist (in the sense of its abilities in FR). You’re trying to base continuity on something that's not really quantifiable. Using real-world physics is one thing, because we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it works. But magic "works" through one or a few people's interpretation of events (which is what I believe a novel is). We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point buddy.
-Not following you here. Magic is a natural phenomena that purveys Realmspace.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
It makes sense because we don't know what effect her being on her home-plane has. We don't know what effects caused her death and what she died of might have drastic consequences (don't say Cyric hit her on the head, that's just one interpretation).
-Mystryl was in her divine realm when she died, as the effects of Karsus' Avatar began.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Yea, I don't believe that the Weave was ever needed to have magic on the planet. Whether is canon or not (which I don't really give much though to) I dont' think magic exists because a deity exists. To tie something So powerful, so setting-broad, and so diverse as magic to one god is a poor design IMO and a reason I haven't done so in the Realms. Guess thats why I'm cool with the spellplague.
-I personally like to believe that it is/was (otherwise, what's the real point!), but I know it isn't/wasn't. The Weave itself was Mystra incarnate. For those magicians who relied on the Weave (most of them) to access and shape Raw Magic, it more or less was magic itself, in the only form they were familiar with, understood, and could manipulate. De facto, she was the source of magic, given that alternate ways to access magic (Shadow Weave, Hishna, Pluma, Table Magics) are/were all very, very small samples of the total cross-section of the magical community.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
So, although magic does exist without the Weave, magic can't exist without the Weave?
Which edition was "full of inconsitencies" again?
-Alternate forms of spellcasting, that circumvented Mystra's Weave in various ways (The Shadow Weave, Hishna, Pluma, Table Magics) have always existed, but are minority traditions, such to the point that they're negligible, especially in the context of the discussion. In, say, 1997, Blockbuster only carried VHS tapes, despite the fact that Betamax existed.
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(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 09 Jul 2011 07:28:38 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2011 : 08:02:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
What happened in 1385 may superficially be similar to what happened in earlier instances of Mystra's death, but it's the height of scientific error to claim that that's the only consideration. You're assuming that Mystra's death (which has never done the same thing, even before the Spellplague) is supposed to have a set effect, and you're assuming the circumstances make no difference? That's just bad science.
-Without extenuating circumstances, Mystra has only died once, before the Spellplague. We have to use this as our control, since it's the only other example of it happening. Her death during the Time of Troubles, because of the fact that the world was operating on temporary measures, instituted by Ao, we can consider the events and narrative that happened as tainted, being that they were not happening in a 'controlled environment'.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Let's talk about location (prime material *sculpted by magic* vs. dweomerheart *formed entirely of magic*): situation A, you light a stick of dynamite in a controlled environment (such as out in an empty field); situation B, you do the exact same thing, but you put it next to a huge pile of more dynamite. Which is going to have the bigger boom?
Let's talk about different power base on different planes (prime material *avatar* vs. home plane *self*): situation A, you light a stick of dynamite; situation B, you light a keg of dynamite. Same question.
I'm not saying those two sample explanations are true or what WotC's going for with the Spellplague. I'm just asserting that one should consider other variables besides "we've seen something like this happen before and it didn't do that, so [snortle]."
-Both times, Mystra died in Dweomerheart. Mystryl was not on the Material Plane when Karsus cast Karsus' Avatar, as no existing sources state so. Rather, she was where all deities' essences are known to reside when they're not particularly doing anything, in their home planes. So, I think the analogy should be modified to: lighting a stick of dynamite, and throwing it into a room full of more dynamite, or lighting a stick of dynamite, and then walking into a room full of more dynamite. End result, the same exact thing happens, though depending on where you, yourself are (throwing it into the room, or literally walking into the room) when the boom goes off, that's the only variable there.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'm just wondering how you can claim that something is contradictory based on "physics" or "science" and yet at the same time entirely gloss over simple basic scientific process concepts like the environment and circumstances?
There isn't any room for doubt here?
-I'm claiming that it's contradictory based on simple logic, that the same event, Mystra dying and the Weave unraveling, happened twice, and we have two different end results. Personally, it stands to reason that there shouldn't be two- environment and circumstance, in what way is their impact relevant in this situation? In what should the physical impact of Mystryl's first death be different from her third death, in your opinion, rather?
-At the end of the day, I'm looking what Ed said in November 2004, where he said that if the goddess of magic died, until something replaced it, magic would either "be wild or simply wouldn't work". The goddess of magic dying, this has already happened, and magic stopped working. The goddess of magic died again, so why do the same effects not manifest when the same exact thing happened? If more information existed that shone light on the differences, I'd be fine. The biggest difference is Shar tampering with things such that Mystra's 'automatic resurrection' was prevented. If that is what caused the Spellplague, I have no problem with that. That is not the effect of Mystra dying, though. That is the effect of Shar tampering with Mystra's 'automatic resurrection'. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 09 Jul 2011 08:04:22 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 17:00:53
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(To note: I didn't start the "logic" debate here--I'm only answering on those terms. I apologize to every kitten karmically murdered over the course of this thread!  )
Well, it isn't clear cut that Mystryl was "in Dweomerheart" when Karsus cast his spell. I seem to recall that the spell was described as summoning Mystra, they did battle, and she died. I could be mistaken, of course, and the descriptions we have of how that spell worked are shady at best.
Also, the circumstances there are radically different: in Karsus's case, that was a mortal (not a greater god of murder) killing Mystra, Mystra had foreseen and taken steps to deal with her death (respawning in the form of a mortal), and the means used were (while powerful) still mortal. There's been substantial precedent that a mortal cannot permanently kill a god except by entering that god's realm, which Karsus did not do.
I don't think it's outside the realm of plausibility that Mystra couldn't foresee her death in 1385, seeing as she's dealing with the greater god of intrigue and the greater goddess of secrets, here. It's like the old irresistible force meets immovable object argument (in this case TWO immovable objects).
Also, the Mystra we're dealing with in the Spellplague case is a younger, less experienced, "mortal-minded" goddess. Cyric might be on the same playing field there, but Shar trumps them both in terms of age. And oftentimes, it's not raw power that makes the difference, it's experience.
In Karsus's case, Mystra's power was always contained during the whole process--either she had it or he did. It never had the opportunity to "bust loose," the way it did with the Spellplague.
Also, ultimately, we don't know the means by which Cyric killed Mystra (or even if he really did!), nor do we know the means by which Shar "blocked" the ascension of a new god of magic.
The situations we're dealing with here are totally different. In the first situation, a trumped up mortal on the prime material casts a spell that drains the power from a goddess, funneling it into himself. Fortunately, the goddess in question had foreseen this and taken steps to reincarnate herself in moments, not before damage was done but before magic went utterly wild.
(And who's to say the Spellplague wouldn't have happened in that situation, too, had not Mystryl become Mystra and prevented it?)
In 1385, an equally powerful god (supported by an even more powerful goddess) sneaks onto our goddess's home turf and kills her with unknown means under unknown circumstances. She's unable to foresee this (or did she?*) and unable to take steps to respawn herself (or did she?*), and all her divine energy breaks loose at the locus of her power.
I see no logical reason to suspect those two radically different situations would have the same outcome.
* "Or did she?" I want to specify here that we just don't know the full outcome here. We're seeing events unfold, not looking back and examining the event historically. Maybe Mystra has indeed put actions into effect to respawn herself which haven't yet come about. Maybe the goddess still lives but is trapped in some way? We just don't know. (Though I suggest reading Ed's new Elminster books, for a start!)
All I want to do here is suggest reasonable doubt and offer a possible explanation of the Spellplague. Things are not logically inconsistent if they can be explained in at least one way (and I think there are LOTS of potential explanations for the Spellplague that don't contradict previous lore).
Also, to leave aside the logical discussion: this is FANTASY here. Not science fiction, not history, not real-world thriller . . . FANTASY. Magic. More than a little bit of weirdness. Applying logic to fantasy is setting yourself up for disappointment.
I'm not saying you shouldn't be reading fantasy, I'm just saying it's unreasonable to come to a genre, knowing it for what it is, and get upset when it doesn't become something it was never intended to be.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 18:51:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also, to leave aside the logical discussion: this is FANTASY here. Not science fiction, not history, not real-world thriller . . . FANTASY. Magic. More than a little bit of weirdness. Applying logic to fantasy is setting yourself up for disappointment.
I'm trying not to get drawn into the whole debate over again, but I do want to respond to this. I disagree that applying logic to fantasy is a bad thing. If I'm reading how Frehd the mage has to struggle to use magic to light a candle, then it's safe to assume he's not all that powerful. If he then levels a castle with a wave of his hand, that defies logic, and saying it's fantasy does not make it make sense.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'm not saying you shouldn't be reading fantasy, I'm just saying it's unreasonable to come to a genre, knowing it for what it is, and get upset when it doesn't become something it was never intended to be.
I think it's not expecting something that shouldn't be in the genre, as much as it is feeling that internal logic and consistency have not been maintained. Any genre, where it's thriller, science-fiction, fantasy, western, crime noir, or even romance, needs internal logic and consistency. I've avoiding the main debate here, but I still think it's not unreasonable to want internal logic and consistency in any form of story-telling, regardless of media or genre. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 11 Jul 2011 18:53:47 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2011 : 20:03:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I still think it's not unreasonable to want internal logic and consistency in any form of story-telling, regardless of media or genre.
I agree with this, and thank you for clarifying the distinction.
The "It's Fantasy" defense is not "it doesn't have to make sense"--it's the "it's not our world, it's its own world with its own rules." Those rules still do have to be consistent with each other.
I do think all things need to follow an internal logic, and I think the Spellplague does. That is what we're discussing here--I'm not at all inclined to throw up my hands and say that it doesn't have to be logical. I really would not have spent so much time in this thread discussing the circumstances/logic if I was.
The wariness comes in applying our real world expectations to a fantasy world like the Realms. An argument I have heard, for instance, is that anthropologically, that many cultures/races wouldn't thrive in such proximity. That, I think, falls prey to the "It's Fantasy" defense.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2011 : 18:10:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, it isn't clear cut that Mystryl was "in Dweomerheart" when Karsus cast his spell. I seem to recall that the spell was described as summoning Mystra, they did battle, and she died. I could be mistaken, of course, and the descriptions we have of how that spell worked are shady at best.
-No sources that I know of state that she was summoned into battle and was killed on the Material Plane, or anywhere else where they might have done battle. The write-ups of Karsus' Avatar, in the different sourcebooks it appears in, does not talk about summoning Mystra from Dweomerheart to the Material Plane.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also, the circumstances there are radically different: in Karsus's case, that was a mortal (not a greater god of murder) killing Mystra, Mystra had foreseen and taken steps to deal with her death (respawning in the form of a mortal), and the means used were (while powerful) still mortal. There's been substantial precedent that a mortal cannot permanently kill a god except by entering that god's realm, which Karsus did not do.
Also, the Mystra we're dealing with in the Spellplague case is a younger, less experienced, "mortal-minded" goddess. Cyric might be on the same playing field there, but Shar trumps them both in terms of age. And oftentimes, it's not raw power that makes the difference, it's experience.
-Karsus did not kill Mystryl. Mystryl killed herself. A deity died at the hands of a deity: in this case, herself.
-She has the experience, so to speak, having absorbed the essence and memories and such of her predecessor (though, as we know, she still hadn't fully come to terms with all of that). I am having trouble understanding why that is relevant, though- especially since we know that all of the guards and catch-alls in the case of her death that "Mystra I" and Mystryl had in place ('If I die, I come back') were in place. Midnight-Mystra was reborn, though Shar somehow had a hand in preventing her resurrection from finishing, as Mystra was resurrected as Midnight-Mystra, and Mystryl was resurrected as Mystra. If that were the cause of the Spellplague, I have no problem with it. But, so far, that's not what the sources we have on the issue say.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
In Karsus's case, Mystra's power was always contained during the whole process--either she had it or he did. It never had the opportunity to "bust loose," the way it did with the Spellplague.
-When she died, nobody had it (her power, her portfolio, whatever you want to call it). Which is the same situation that happened in 1385 DR, when Cyric killed Mystra- nobody had it (Why Cyric did not take it himself, and bolster his power immensely, I am not sure). In past instances when she died, the Weave ceased to exist, and the world plunged into a massive Dead Magic Zone for 1-5 minutes. Now, not so much.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The situations we're dealing with here are totally different. In the first situation, a trumped up mortal on the prime material casts a spell that drains the power from a goddess, funneling it into himself. Fortunately, the goddess in question had foreseen this and taken steps to reincarnate herself in moments, not before damage was done but before magic went utterly wild.
(And who's to say the Spellplague wouldn't have happened in that situation, too, had not Mystryl become Mystra and prevented it?)
In 1385, an equally powerful god (supported by an even more powerful goddess) sneaks onto our goddess's home turf and kills her with unknown means under unknown circumstances. She's unable to foresee this (or did she?*) and unable to take steps to respawn herself (or did she?*), and all her divine energy breaks loose at the locus of her power.
-In other words, encapsulating both scenarios: The goddess of magic is killed by the hands of a divine entity. She dies, and the Weave ceases to exist. As we know, safeguards are in place, by herself, by Ao, by whoever, that causes her to come back to life shortly thereafter, because the Weave is integral thing (up to that point, according to lore, before the 4e transition took place in 2008, or whenever it was). The only difference in scenarios is that, in the second one, Shar is involved in preventing Mystra from fully reforming herself. And, again, if that were the cause of the Spellplague, I'd have no problem with it. But, so far, that's not what the sources we have on the issue say.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
* "Or did she?" I want to specify here that we just don't know the full outcome here. We're seeing events unfold, not looking back and examining the event historically. Maybe Mystra has indeed put actions into effect to respawn herself which haven't yet come about. Maybe the goddess still lives but is trapped in some way? We just don't know. (Though I suggest reading Ed's new Elminster books, for a start!)
-We already know, factually, that she did indeed begin the process of resurrecting, as her predecessors 'Mystra I' and Mystryl had, and that Shar had a hand in preventing her from fully reforming herself. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 12 Jul 2011 18:11:28 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2011 : 18:56:20
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A couple of notes:
1) You're drawing heavily on "the sources we have." What sources are you talking about?
2) It's a minute technicality that Mystryl/Mystra was "killed at the hands of a divine entity" by "killing" herself, but technically, you're correct.
To my mind, if Mystryl destroyed/respawned herself rather than Karsus, then that's even LESS like what happened in 1385 with Cyric/Shar. Maybe we're reading too much into the "killing a god concept"--perhaps the Mystryl example was more like rebooting herself. (That's how I've always understood it.)
3) It seems clear that the Weave did NOT cease to exist in the Mystryl example. Perhaps that's how people understood it at the time (and that's how the history books have scripted it), but evidentially, the only thing we see is that magic ceases to function. This does not necessarily mean the Weave ceased to exist. (If it had indeed ceased to exist, then wouldn't there have been a long period afterward where magic just didn't function? At least until Mystra rebuilt the Weave?) I was under the impression that Mystryl reincarnated as Mystra in time to catch the Weave's fraying edges and hold it together; heck, she even caught a falling city or two.
In 1385, however, when Mystra died, the exact same thing started to happen, but for SOME REASON (we don't know exactly why, only that Shar seems to have had something to do with it*) Mystra was unable to reincarnate and catch the Weave, as she did in the case of falling Netheril. Without Mystra to maintain it, the Weave unraveled and caused the devastation known as the Spellplague.
I think the same thing did happen in both scenarios, only that Mystra wasn't able to come back in 1385. If the same had been true at the height of Karsus's Folly, I see no reason the Spellplague wouldn't have happened then as well.
(*I have read no source that makes it clear what exactly Shar did to block a new god of magic. I would be very interested in figuring that out definitively.)
Finally, let me reiterate again that I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything or apologize for retcons that I didn't make. I'm just trying to discuss a viewpoint that integrates previous lore, because that's what we do on Candlekeep--we discuss!
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2011 : 20:26:31
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| According to Heroes of Shadow (4e), Liches are now supported by the magic of the Shadowfell. So, I'm guessing that Shar may have something to do with it, or another deity (I would love to say Kiaransalee or Velsharoon, but you know...) took control over such necromantic (even though Shar didn't really do necromancy) energies. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2011 : 20:28:02
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| For that matter, what would have happened to sorcerers during the spell plaque, seeing as they called upon the magical energies within themselves? |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4489 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2011 : 20:38:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
For that matter, what would have happened to sorcerers during the spell plaque, seeing as they called upon the magical energies within themselves?
I'm fairly certain that all manner of arcane spellcasters were effected by the Spellplague. For example, I believe it was Caladnei that was killed by the Spellplague and she was supposedly to have been a Sorceress (sor 11/ftr 4, FRCS). |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator
E6 Options: Epic 6 Campaign |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2011 : 20:43:40
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| What about the fey, who are magically potent, and don't have any direct connections with Mystra? |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2011 : 15:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Erendriel Durothil
What about the fey, who are magically potent, and don't have any direct connections with Mystra?
I think everything that used magic prior to 1385 had at least some connection to Mystra, simply by her nature as the focus of magic. She was the gatekeeper and (with some small exceptions) everyone who used magic had to go through her.
This seems to have been Shar's major motive in creating the Shadow Weave: finding a way around Mystra as the middle-man (er, middle-goddess).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3765 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2011 : 18:12:31
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| -Eric, didn't forget about you! Will reply tonight after I get home from work. Running late, and can't get into in-depth discussion this morning (afternoon really, but waking up at 12 noon, 1 PM is morning to me)! |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 13 Jul 2011 18:13:00 |
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A question about the spellplague...
