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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Jun 2011 : 15:41:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
We just never saw those organizations doing their evilness and winning, because it was a TSR "no no!"
Apart from the political self-censorship of the Code of Ethics and Standards for Content, perhaps also because of the shortness of most Realms fiction compared to long-drawn-out fantasy sagas and the time things tend to play out in Faerûn. It rarely gives us the panoramas or representative spans of time that would show more of antagonists' success before their eventual defeat. The preference of many authors and editors for linearity over entanglement also shows us less of what else is going on outside the heroes' necessary victories. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 02:35:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Eltheron
We just never saw those organizations doing their evilness and winning, because it was a TSR "no no!"
Apart from the political self-censorship of the Code of Ethics and Standards for Content, perhaps also because of the shortness of most Realms fiction compared to long-drawn-out fantasy sagas and the time things tend to play out in Faerûn. It rarely gives us the panoramas or representative spans of time that would show more of antagonists' success before their eventual defeat. The preference of many authors and editors for linearity over entanglement also shows us less of what else is going on outside the heroes' necessary victories.
That is something important to consider. Similar to how there is only so much time in a movie, there is only so much space in a book. That's another reason I wish the Villains series idea that we discussed on here a few months back, or something similar to it, would come to pass. That would allow the "screen time" necessary to fully illustrate something like that. Or, perhaps an "Origins" series and have a few of them focus on villains or villainous organizations. Actually, that idea could really go in all kinds of directions now that I think about it.
As for Chosen, I say make Manshoon a Chosen. Set down rules that he can't directly try to kill Elminster (but scheming and counter scheming will be both expected and encouraged) and task him with rebuilding the Zhentarim (or at least the mage cabal aspect). That might not be the most popular idea (I have the feeling Dennis will strongly object) and for all I know there is a canon reason that can't/won't happen, but I think it could be an interesting idea that elevates their rivalry. This way you have an evil Chosen (and not just a no name out of left field) that we the audience knows will oppose Elminster whenever and wherever he can to help establish a check and balance system to counter the Chosen=Justice League mindset.
On the larger topic of Mystra returning, which I assume means the return of the Weave, would this also potentially open the door for the return of the Shadow Weave? |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1288 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 03:22:21
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Not sure if it's relevant or not, but I spoke to Ed at an RA Salvadore signing for Guantlgrym a while back and he told me that as a fan of the Simbul, I would be very pleased with this book. So I'm eager to buy it.
I enjoyed the preview chapter, it was great! |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 04:23:07
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Hi again, all.
Aldrick, I should remind you that BURY ELMINSTER DEEP is the second title in Ed's current six-book contract with Wizards of the Coast. Before they signed Bob to HIS current six-book contract, they signed Ed to one. One that calls for six Elminster novels.
I sent Ed your post (and several of the others in this thread) and here's his response:
Let me be perfectly cryptic, friends. ;}
My best dirty, dirty tricks take several books to unfold.
Some scribes have guessed/suspected well, some are VERY close to truths as yet unrevealed, and some are sniffing down paths that come as surprises to me.
To still others, I feel I should repeat my warning against assumptions. To echo Mandy Patinkin's character in THE PRINCESS BRIDE: "I do-na think that word means what you think it means."
And to yet others: what is this trial of Mystra you post of? From whom did we learn details of it? So tell me now: which sources of news from afar, in life, do YOU trust?
Hmm. Perfectly cryptic, indeed. 
love to all,
THO |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 05:06:28
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Ha! Ed is such a tease.
Thanks THO.
I knew this was a second book, and I had read Ed has signed a six book deal. However, I was under the impression that this would actually be a trilogy and the extra books were 'just in case he ran long.' So, I am glad for the clarification. I am most definitely going to be picking up the books, and I was mostly debating whether or not to wait until (up until I read your post) the final book came out so I could read them all back-to-back. Now that I know that there are going to be six of them, I'm probably going to get ELMINSTER MUST DIE and BURY ELMINSTER DEEP together and read them back-to-back and then pick up the others as they come out.
Ed could actually be responsible for ending my very long self-imposed boycott of Realms novels. I was completely sincere in my words regarding the sample chapter - it was very, very good. If I had the opportunity to buy the book immediately after reading it I would have done so without hesitation.
I can't wait to find out what happens... and perhaps even more than that, I'm going to enjoy all the speculation that builds until (or even if!) it is revealed. |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 08:47:22
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| Well, if the Seven Sisters and the other Chosen are not points of light in a world frequently besieged by evil, then I'm out. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 11:34:18
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I'd like to know who those other Chosen Mystra talked about, the ones that Elminster himself didn't know. Could one of them be an Evil Chosen? Larloch? Hmm... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 15:17:36
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| I look forward to seeing something about Chosen from far off lands. Even if it is only a small sentence or two about one from the other side of globe. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Thente Thunderspells
Seeker
USA
65 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 16:20:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
Well, if the Seven Sisters and the other Chosen are not points of light in a world frequently besieged by evil, then I'm out.
No one ever said that the Seven, Elminster, Khelben, and Srinshee aren't points of light in a world frequently besieged by evil.
All that has been said, even by Ed, is that the main job of the chosen is to spread the use of magic, sometimes at great cost morally. And that there are other chosen who haven't received any screen time and may never, who are either very dimly lit lights or points of darkness in their own right.
You can go on, with me, looking at the chosen who get the most screen time as heroic people, which they are, struggling oftentimes against vast darknesses, but they do have different motivations than "be good all the time" paladin-esque motivations. |
The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool.
- Shakespeare |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 18:41:30
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Lucky for those who live in the Realms:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Mystra prefers peace and prosperity as conditions for encouraging/fostering more widespread and frequent magic use (and development of magic, which in turn will make it more useful in a daily sense and hence better used), not destruction or chaos.
A decidedly 'Good' outlook. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2011 : 19:54:14
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Saer -
Nothing Ed has said there is a contradiction to what has already been discussed in this thread. I even touched upon similar things in previous statements (as to how the Chosen or Mystra would attempt to persuade evil wizards to share their magic, and be less overt and more subtle in their actions). We've discussed the reason Mystra and her Chosen frequently find themselves in conflict with groups such as the Red Wizards of Thay is because they attempt to control magic and deny it to others.
Ed is very clear in his statement: Mystra prefers to encourage and foster more widespread and frequent uses of magic. The reason she often finds herself aligned with "the good guys" is because they are most often the ones developing magic to be used by a larger number of people. The more magic is used for the common good of the people, the more people shall embrace its use - the less stigma against magic users and magic will exist. The result of less stigma, and more magic use, also means more wizards. With more wizards comes more magic. More magic means more power and influence for Mystra, and that means she is fulfilling her divine duties.
Let me try and approach things from a different angle with you...
Do you believe Mystra is actively suppressing magical knowledge that can -ONLY- be used for evil purposes? In other words, is Mystra or her Chosen actively denying magical knowledge to -ANYONE- who is either creating, in the process of creating, or uncovering magic that can -ONLY- be used for evil?
I believe the answer to that question is a resounding and big no. Mystra has a preference - we all have preferences in life. I prefer to drink tea over soda, but if all that is offered to me is soda I'll drink it. In the same way, Mystra prefers that magic be used in a way that promotes the use of even more magic, but she isn't going to actively seek to crush the Red Wizards of Thay simply because they frequently use magic for evil purposes.
No, Mystra is going to actively encourage Thay to spread their knowledge. Sometimes with carrots, and other times with sticks.
On a similar level, Mystra may promote the use of -ALL- magic, but pay specific attention to promoting magic that will encourage the use of even more magic in the future.
Mystra didn't - at least to my knowledge - tell Velsharoon that he needed to instruct his followers to keep the dark arts they were studying a secret because she didn't want it to spread. She almost certainly told Velsharoon, and it may have even been a precondition for her protection over him, that his followers MUST disseminate and spread their knowledge of necromancy and undeath. Not only would such an arrangement benefit Velsharoon (more undeath and necromancy means more power for Velsharoon), it benefited Mystra (more necromancy meant more magic).
Would this be Mystra's ideal? No. The walking undead tend to scare common folk and turn them against wizards. That doesn't mean, though, that Mystra was not both directly and indirectly aiding those wizards. In the end, magic is magic, even if it isn't the ideal type that she'd prefer.
For completeness, here is Ed's statement in full:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all. I bring a reply from Ed of the Greenwood, to this from Saer Cormaeril: "Ed, can you please clarify something for me? I have always been under the impression that Mystra would prefer that the Art was used to, in the long run, help generate peace and prosperity in Faerun. Is this incorrect?"
Ed replies:
Mystra CERTAINLY prefers that the Art is used to in the long run, help generate peace and prosperity in Faerûn.
Not only does She firmly believe that stable social conditions with a goodly amount of personal freedom, bolstered and made possible by peace and prosperity, make for the best environment in which the maximum number of beings can further their personal mastery of magic, use magic in a daily breadwinning sense (and so enhance possibilities for development of non-battle-magic as opposed to more and more "blasting" spells), and have the time, opportunity, and relatively unfettered (as opposed to wartime) access to resources/ingredients/components/apparatus with which to experiment and be creative in developing new spells and magical processes . . . she also believes that more individuals who hate or fear the Art because they have no gift for working with it and see those who do as potential/actual oppressors, will soften into support of the Art, however grudging, if they see magic (in the hands of many, as opposed to a few tyrants) as bolstering, causing, or maintaining peace and prosperity. (For one thing, if the average saer in the street sees a personal benefit from cheap and plentiful spellcasting, and gets a lot more daily exposure to magic and its casters, familiarity will allay some of the fears, and quell some of the wilder rumours, about magic.)
In other words, magic-aided peace and prosperity creates conditions for a snowballing effect of deepening itself, leading to more peace and prosperity and more magic, AND increases a "buy in" from others who see the benefits of peace and prosperity.
More than this, Mystra sees peace and prosperity as a natural human desire, a goal to be fought for, and a clear reward for embracing her chief aim of "more magic for all."
The different Mystras have approached this goal in different ways, down the years, although there is increasing evidence that "being Mystra" does, over time, shape each wearer of that partiular divine mantle to behave and think in certain ways (some of which are seen by some mortals as "divine hubris").
I must caution again that mortals cannot clearly see the entirety of any divine being's nature, thoughts, and condition, and one must be VERY cautious about saying things along the lines of "this particular act or speech doesn't fit with that stated alignment," or some such. As any librarian knows, classification systems are all imperfect at best. For gods, they define observed tendencies and self-proclaimed adherences, more than any consistent reality.
So saith Ed. Being wordy so as to curtail, as much as possible, misinterpretations of what he's saying here.
love to all,
THO
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 03:21:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Do you believe Mystra is actively suppressing magical knowledge that can -ONLY- be used for evil purposes? In other words, is Mystra or her Chosen actively denying magical knowledge to -ANYONE- who is either creating, in the process of creating, or uncovering magic that can -ONLY- be used for evil? I believe the answer to that question is a resounding and big no. [snip]
I disagree---to a certain degree. In general cases, she wouldn't do that. It would be absurd to suppress magic when her goal is to spread its use. BUT, if she deems the magic in question is considerably powerful, and the one who intends to wield it is either ill-prepared or cares nothing about its grave effects, I strongly believe she would do all in her power to hide that knowledge, or part of it, to prevent a catastrophe of immeasurable proportion. Take for example the magical knowledge of [spoilers] the “The Ritual” that Szass Tam cast in Thay to “recreate” the world according to his whim. I don't think Mystra ever helped him in the pursuit of that knowledge. She might even be the sole reason that it took Tam quite a long time to figure out how to make it work, since the first wizard who tried to cast it had gone mad its purpose had never been fulfilled. Now, Tam is still determined to erect the Dread Rings and cast his Ritual. As she must have done before and during Thay's Civil War, Mystra would never ever help him because it would destroy every living creature in Toril, summarily eliminating the people who are supposed to use and spread magic. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 03:56:46
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Dennis-
We're not in disagreement. 
Mystra would, and does, in very specific circumstances limit knowledge to certain individuals and groups. In virtually every one of these cases the magic being used would be harmful to the Weave or extremely detrimental to magic as a whole - as you point out in your own example. However, even in those cases I still believe that while Mystra may deny the knowledge to one individual or group, she may grant it to another she feels can use the knowledge in a more responsible way. (As an example, she might allow Larloch or Elminster to use certain magic she wouldn't want or allow most others to use.)
My point, and I apologize if it was unclear, is not going out of her way to specifically limit knowledge that most folk would consider 'evil' simply on the basis that it is 'evil.' She has a preference to spread magic - all types of magic - but in particular magic that will lead to a greater acceptance of magic by more people, which she hopes will lead to more wizards and more magic. As a result, she prefers magic that is beneficial to people rather than harmful or frightening to them. (This is not necessarily and innately because such magic tends to be of a 'good' nature, but rather because it directly benefits her goals of spreading magic.)
Ed's newest comments build upon something I brought up previously in the thread when I quoted Markustay.
quote:
This comment from Ed is regarding these words (and only these words) from Markustay:
quote:
"First, I never said Mystra was a 'force for good' - she isn't.
She is a force to promote Arcane magic, and she uses the weave to that end. Technically, I think of Mystra as more of an immensely powerful, sentient artifact. She was created by gods, and is the self-aware consciousness of the weave. At that level of power, the difference between such an artifact and a 'true god' is negligible; merely a matter of semantics. She's like an overly-complex computer program that keeps needing to be rebooted every so often.
Anyhow, the spread of Ubral (shadow) magic is what she is trying to prevent - its natural connections to death would have a devastating effect on the Realms (look at Anauroch). That may make it seem like she is a force for good, but technically 'Good vs Evil' don't enter into it - magic is merely a means to an end, and can be used for either. It is the type of magic she is most concerned with.
While the 'free use of magic' is best-promoted by a free, democratic society, it is not necessary. She obviously had no problem with Aryvandaar and the Vyshann Empire (although it is questionable how much control she can exert over elves). Tyranny tends to lend itself to those in power being the only ones allowed to hold power, and that is the only reason why Mystra opposes those types of cultures."
Ed saith:
Markustay, every word of this is correct, and is superbly expressed. Right on, in every detail.
...
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2011 : 23:28:39
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| I'd love to see an evil Mystra. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 08:32:36
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An evil twin might be more interesting. If Selune could have an evil twin, why can't Mystra?
Nothing and no one is an overkill, and certainly not evil. The degree with which a subject elicits favor or arouses interest depends primarily on how deftly the writer presents its multifaceted elements. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 15:40:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
An evil twin might be more interesting. If Selune could have an evil twin, why can't Mystra?
-Mystra is more "whole" than either Selûne or Shar, who are, by nature, dualistic of each other. An "evil twin" type scenario, embodying the things that Mystra isn't, that doesn't really work too well, unless you want to designate Mystra the patron of 'good magic', or 'magic used in a benevolent manner', or whatever else, which she isn't.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Nothing and no one is an overkill, and certainly not evil. The degree with which a subject elicits favor or arouses interest depends primarily on how deftly the writer presents its multifaceted elements.
-We have a broad inkling of the immense level of Mystra's strength. Should her outlook on sour, and she become evil in the classical "tyrannical despot" sense, there'd be few who'd be able to resist, even among the deities themselves. And, in theory, if she subjugated the world according to her whims, so long as she were proliferating magic, she'd be acting within her bounds as deity of magic, and not doing anything that'd necessarily earn her a reprimanding by Ao. Think of it: Massive spellbattles, on a world-wide scale. That'd be incredibly stimulating to magic. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 17 Jun 2011 15:44:26 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 19:59:56
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That is why I suggested a twin, or mayhap an exact "opposite" deity. We learned from Ed that Mystra is practically neutral. But her inkling towards goodly magic "appears" to be more pronounced because, as Ed said, evil spellcasters tend to keep magic to themselves, thus going against Mystra's goal (spreading the use of magic). So, in a way, she's not really neutral. To have some sort of balance, why not make her entirely of good alignment, and create a new goddess, or god of evil magic?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 20:56:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That is why I suggested a twin, or mayhap an exact "opposite" deity. We learned from Ed that Mystra is practically neutral. But her inkling towards goodly magic "appears" to be more pronounced because, as Ed said, evil spellcasters tend to keep magic to themselves, thus going against Mystra's goal (spreading the use of magic). So, in a way, she's not really neutral. To have some sort of balance, why not make her entirely of good alignment, and create a new goddess, or god of evil magic?!
So she's not neutral because she knows evil mages don't spread magic as readily as non-evil mages... That's a stretch of logic that does not make sense to me. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 21:15:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That is why I suggested a twin, or mayhap an exact "opposite" deity. We learned from Ed that Mystra is practically neutral. But her inkling towards goodly magic "appears" to be more pronounced because, as Ed said, evil spellcasters tend to keep magic to themselves, thus going against Mystra's goal (spreading the use of magic). So, in a way, she's not really neutral. To have some sort of balance, why not make her entirely of good alignment, and create a new goddess, or god of evil magic?!
So she's not neutral because she knows evil mages don't spread magic as readily as non-evil mages... That's a stretch of logic that does not make sense to me.
You misunderstand my post. No, she's not exactly neutral because she does not help evil mages as readily as she does the goodly ones. She either keeps the magical knowledge from them because they are either ill-prepared for it or they intend to use it for their own sake and their own sake alone; or deliberately stops them from casting whatever destructive spells they've created. I would like reiterate my example of Szass Tam's "Ritual" in The Haunted Lands trilogy. I don't think she had ever helped the mad lich in learning of its existence and in devising the means on how to effectively cast it. Heh, she might even be the reason why it took Tam centuries to learn of it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 21:22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That is why I suggested a twin, or mayhap an exact "opposite" deity. We learned from Ed that Mystra is practically neutral. But her inkling towards goodly magic "appears" to be more pronounced because, as Ed said, evil spellcasters tend to keep magic to themselves, thus going against Mystra's goal (spreading the use of magic). So, in a way, she's not really neutral. To have some sort of balance, why not make her entirely of good alignment, and create a new goddess, or god of evil magic?!
So she's not neutral because she knows evil mages don't spread magic as readily as non-evil mages... That's a stretch of logic that does not make sense to me.
You misunderstand my post. No, she's not exactly neutral because she does not help evil mages as readily as she does the goodly ones. She either keeps the magical knowledge from them because they are either ill-prepared for it or they intend to use it for their own sake and their own sake alone; or deliberately stops them from casting whatever destructive spells they've created. I would like reiterate my example of Szass Tam's "Ritual" in The Haunted Lands trilogy. I don't think she had ever helped the mad lich in learning of its existence and in devising the means on how to effectively cast it. Heh, she might even be the reason why it took Tam centuries to learn of it.
So she's required to actively help evil people, to be considered neutral?
And where, other than the one novel where it was a minor plot point that she was slapped down for, has she ever worked against evil mages? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 21:39:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
So she's required to actively help evil people, to be considered neutral?
Eh? Is this a jest?
She's been helping goodly wizards. (Hah! Most of her Chosen are even of good alignment!) Why wouldn't she do the same to evil mages?
You see, it is difficult to reconcile Mystra's goal (spreading magic) with her neutral alignment. Goodly wizards would happily do what she wants. But some evil wizards hardly would. It is the nature of evil to be selfish. Why share with others when you can have it all for yourself?! That's an evil wizard's mantra. Being neutral means you favor neither good nor evil. You either support both or leave them to fend for themselves. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 17 Jun 2011 21:54:21 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 22:16:09
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Hang on there, Dennis; Ed warned recently about applying alignments to deities for a good reason.
Everything you say just above is correct, and yet...that's a narrow view of evil. Yours, and correct, but NOT comprehensive/absolute. SOME evil mages are selfish, and use their magic for tyranny. However, some take a longer view.
So does Mystra, which is one of the reasons her Chosen "sew magic" for others to find, and she spreads rumors of "lost" and hidden magic: to keep evil or merely greedy/ambitious mages busy seeking it, rather than attacking other mages to gain magic that way. And why Mystra covertly works for peace and to support counterveiling power groups: to keep wars less likely and small...because large wars inevitably wipe out lots of potential users of magic. Mystra tends to "help" evil mages by enticing them into long-drawn-out wild goose chases (and sometimes, real chases) after hidden magic...
(All of this comes from Ed, but paraphrased by me.)
love,
THO |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 22:26:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
And why Mystra covertly works for peace and to support counterveiling power groups: to keep wars less likely and small...because large wars inevitably wipe out lots of potential users of magic.
(All of this comes from Ed, but paraphrased by me.)
love,
THO
That's why I think it's rather useless to "box" Mystra in neutral alignment. Either make her entirely good, or don't label her with an alignment at all. Supporting the good more than the evil is not neutral. Some ---I repeat, some---evil mages care nothing about the destruction they wreck so long as they achieve their nefarious goals. And since Mystra can't accept that (which is understandable, given her own goal), then she isn't entirely of her "supposed" alignment. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 22:34:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
And why Mystra covertly works for peace and to support counterveiling power groups: to keep wars less likely and small...because large wars inevitably wipe out lots of potential users of magic.
(All of this comes from Ed, but paraphrased by me.)
love,
THO
That's why I think it's rather useless to "box" Mystra in neutral alignment. Either make her entirely good, or don't label her with an alignment at all. Supporting the good more than the evil is not neutral. Some ---I repeat, some---evil mages care nothing about the destruction they wreck so long as they achieve their nefarious goals. And since Mystra can't accept that (which is understandable, given her own goal), then she isn't entirely of her "supposed" alignment.
But she does not oppose or hinder evil mages. She uses and aids those most likely to further her own goals, and those folks are most often good or neutral -- but she's not using alignment as a litmus test for service or aid. She's not favoring any one alignment, she favors those who further her goals, regardless of their alignment.
You're basically saying that to be considered neutral, she's got to actively aid those who will work against her goals. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 22:48:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You're basically saying that to be considered neutral, she's got to actively aid those who will work against her goals.
NO. What I'm saying is she shouldn't have been labeled neutral at all, because an alignment is supposed to be representative of one's thoughts and actions. Mystra has her own goal, which in some ways don't jive with the alignment "given" to her. I'm fine with her pursuing her goals. Just don't call her neutral because she isn't that, entirely. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 22:50:06
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On the contrary, Dennis, Ed was pointing out that you are applying your own (and in this particular case, too narrow) interpretation of "neutral" to Mystra's actions.
Mystra ISN'T helping good more than evil; she's using good-aligned mages more as disseminators of magic BECAUSE IT TENDS TO WORK BETTER than relying on evil/selfish ones.
The magic thus disseminated is often stolen, seized, or legitimately acquired (in training, trade, etc.) by evil mages, who tend to seek it more energetically, so THEY BENEFIT MORE THAN THE GOOD mages. So it all tends to, over time, "balance out."
Which is, ahem, neutral.
See?
(What you're really saying in your recent posts is "*I* wouldn't call Mystral neutral," which is a slightly different thing. You are entitled to your opinion, but it's beside the point from the POV of the game publishers/Realms designers, who are "taking the longer view" of neutral.)
love,
THO |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2011 : 23:03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
On the contrary, Dennis, Ed was pointing out that you are applying your own (and in this particular case, too narrow) interpretation of "neutral" to Mystra's actions.
Mystra ISN'T helping good more than evil; she's using good-aligned mages more as disseminators of magic BECAUSE IT TENDS TO WORK BETTER than relying on evil/selfish ones.
So she's using the good-aligned wizards to disseminate magic more than evil mages because it's going to further her goals. That doesn't sound neutral to me. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 01:12:12
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I'll jump in here - I won't respond to anyone directly, but broadly in general.
First, I disagree with the assessment that evil aligned wizards are inherently less likely to spread magic. Yes, this is true in some cases, but... well more on that in a moment. The issue with evil wizards is not an inherent problem, but rather the way they benefit from magic. There are many, many, evil wizards that benefit from spreading magic though they are less portrayed in fiction. Just calling upon two examples that immediately spring to mind: A wizard that worships Loviatar and develops magic that helps spread pain and suffering, benefits both his sadistic interests as well as his goddess by spreading that magic. Likewise, a wizard that worships Velsharoon benefits both himself and his deity if more people are studying Necromancy (taking more apprentices, spreading it among the faithful in the cult, attempting to lure others into the faith with the magic). These are just two examples - the list goes on.
However, when you look at a group such as the Red Wizards of Thay - it is different. Their entire power structure is wrapped up in their CONTROL of magic. It directly undermines them and their goals to spread magic.
Outside of religious orders that many evil wizards may belong which would naturally work to spread magic, there is always the quid-pro-quo issue. Evil wizards benefit in sharing their magic with others because those they share with are more inclined to share their magic with them in return. This is a reciprocal relationship that helps both parties involved, and would certainly be HIGHLY approved by Mystra.
Now... to the flip side... I think it is a mistake to simply view evil wizards as the ones most inclined to control magic. The reason is simple attempting to control something is a lawful act. Does anyone want to make the argument that a Lawful Good wizard - dedicated to say, Eldath - would be happy spreading around destructive magic that causes harm to others? It is even easy to believe that such a wizard would either hide, suppress, or destroy such magic to keep it out of the hands of those who'd harm others. Outside of this narrow example, there are endless reasons why a good aligned wizard - lawful or not - would want to control and suppress certain types of magic. Magic that harms souls, that is inherently corruptive, animates or involves the undead, etc.
Now, you may say to me - Aldrick, those are narrow examples! Perhaps. Yet, it is equally possible that a mostly good aligned magocracy could spring into existence in the Realms. They would be no more or less inclined to spread magic than Thay, after all - like Thay - their power would be bound up in the control of magic. "But Mystra, I cannot spread this magic, it may fall into the hands of our evil enemies and they would use this knowledge against us!"
Granted, no such goodly nation of mages exists, but if they did unless they were a religious order of Mystra, the likelihood of them being more inclined to spread their magic - I would argue - would be no better or worse than Thay.
In the end, as I said previously, controlling magic is a lawful action - not a good or evil one. The motivations may differ depending on alignment, but the desire can exist anywhere on the good / evil axis.
Finally, I would make the argument that Mystra's preference to spread so-called 'good' magic that benefits people is not an inherently good act. (Though it could certainly be viewed that way by both worshipers and individuals throughout the Realms.) As previously discussed, and pointed out by Ed, the spreading of this magic is inherently beneficial to Mystra's desire to spread even MORE magic. If people see magic as useful to them, and a positive force, they'd be less inclined to fear wizards and more inclined to become wizards themselves. More wizards means more magic. If people begin to accept magic into their lives in a major way, then they can even become dependent upon it for their standard of living - the same way we might depend on electricity. The more people outside of wizards themselves who desire magic, the more a society becomes open to magic users of all types, and the more magic that will be demanded by the people.
Now, you could look at this and say, 'Mystra is a positive force in the Realms!' However, I look at this and say, 'Mystra is only doing this for selfish reasons.' Doing this inherently benefits Mystra and her aims to spread magic. A good act is one of inherent selflessness. If Mystra is benefiting directly, there is an inherent payoff involved, and a rather large one at that. Naturally, we cannot know the mind of Mystra. Perhaps she - in her heart of hearts - truly desires magic to be helpful and beneficial to people, and would spread it even if it offered her no reward - even if it had a negative impact upon her directly. However, we cannot know that. Everything that Ed has said on the matter, in my view at least, is totally consistent with someone motivated by selfish desire. Now, if you are merely judging on outcome then it is a good action... but what is more important in the end to alignment, the outcome or an individuals motivations?
What, in the end, makes Mystra any different than a drug pusher on the street? "Hey, you want to try some of this magic stuff?"  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2011 : 01:46:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
On the contrary, Dennis, Ed was pointing out that you are applying your own (and in this particular case, too narrow) interpretation of "neutral" to Mystra's actions.
Mystra ISN'T helping good more than evil; she's using good-aligned mages more as disseminators of magic BECAUSE IT TENDS TO WORK BETTER than relying on evil/selfish ones.
So she's using the good-aligned wizards to disseminate magic more than evil mages because it's going to further her goals. That doesn't sound neutral to me.
I think you're focusing a little too heavily on Mystra's alignment issue, and not enough on the actual function of good or evil mages with respect to carrying out Mystra's mandate on the dissemination of magic.
Good-aligned wizards have a greater tendency to share the magic, which serves Mystra's overall purpose. Evil wizards, however, will hoard or covet the power Mystra bequeaths to them, and that runs counter to Mystra's will. |
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