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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 09:54:10
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Hey...
I watched Starwars last night, and got thinking. Is there a caunsil of high mages that excist in Fearun? Im thinking like Elminster the Seven, Srinshee and so on...
Does that excist or is it divided into the Harpers, Elven high mages and so on?
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 10:51:18
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| I don't think there's an estabilshed organisation that the magi of Faerun attend regularly or hold membership of. Like you said, there are numerous organisationms such as the Harpers and religions with a taste for the arcane that could hold some grand congress of spellcasters, but don't appear to do so regularly or formally. Some secret location tucked off in a distant corner of the world, acting as neutral ground where arcanists of all stripes could meet in safety and discuss matters of magical import, etc, could easily be introduced (like Cynosure, except for motral magi instead of gods). |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 11:18:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Hey...
I watched Starwars last night, and got thinking. Is there a caunsil of high mages that excist in Fearun? Im thinking like Elminster the Seven, Srinshee and so on...
Does that excist or is it divided into the Harpers, Elven high mages and so on?
A number of different organisations have their own "high council" of mages/warriors/whatever.
The Harpers have the High Harpers, Thay has the Zulkirs (technically, I suppose), there's the Seven Sisters and other Chosen of Mystra (I wouldn't call them an official "council" per se, but they sort of fit the moniker), the Elven High Mages have their own organisation/group, Evermeet has Amlaruil and her High Council...
You could go on for a while, really. But compared with Star Wars, I'd say the High Harpers are probably going to come pretty close to what you're looking for, even though they're not all mages. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 14:52:10
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The 2E Complete Wizard's Handbook suggests a number of wizardly organizations which easily be adapted into the Realms or any other setting. The Center For Monster Control, Foes Of The Wand, etc.
I'd have to agree with Cleric, there isn't really any overarching grand supercouncil of magi knights ... though of course Elminster and the Chosen (etc) always seem to be around when they're "needed" most. Perhaps Manshoon or Szass Tam lead armies of Zhent "Blackcapes" or necromancer "Redstaffs" to oppose the good guys. It wouldn't be the first Star Wars ripoff, nor the worst. Things are complicated when, say, Vangerdahast and his purple warmages get involved.
It seems to me that all these figures largely go about their own business as individuals - sometimes bickering, competitive, ambitious, cheap and dirty individuals - or, on the other extreme, they are all merely pawns for a handful of incompetent gods. Take your pick. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 18:22:59
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| -My favorite 'council' is the Cult of the Dragons. Really, it doesn't get more badass than a bunch of powerful necromancers and Dracoliches. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 19:25:30
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There is nothing powerful about The Cult! 
But anyways... didnt think such a council existed... I might just go ahead and contact the famous ones of he realm and ask them to join! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 20:57:39
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Stars Wars universe is not comparable to Fearun.
In Star Wars there was only one power that had one school (setting aside the Sith). In Fearun there are guilds of magic, some centered on race, small centered on city or land. No would look to a worldwide leadership that the Jedi council provided for the Republic.
The two worlds are too far apart to make any comparisons, excepting on how different the leaders ship of "magic" works in one realm as opposed to how it works in a different one. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 21:15:53
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| Elminster isn't green enough to be a Yoda, either. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 21:31:49
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@Kent - I am not so sure. If he is just referring to a council of Mages, then the one power could be considered The Art.
However, it definitely has more of Dragonlance type feel with the council of mages, and such. As we all know Raistlin Majere could whoop Elminster. (j/k j/k) |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 22:16:22
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| Im just thinkin in terms of When the Harpers was first "made"... at the Dancing Place A lot of gods turned out to talk about... what ever they talk about. I just saw maybe something like that... just with mortal mages. Where all of the VIPs would be present. But it seems not to exist! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 01:33:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Stars Wars universe is not comparable to Fearun.
In Star Wars there was only one power that had one school (setting aside the Sith). In Fearun there are guilds of magic, some centered on race, small centered on city or land. No would look to a worldwide leadership that the Jedi council provided for the Republic.
-There exist multiple Force-using traditions and philosophies. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 02:31:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Stars Wars universe is not comparable to Fearun.
In Star Wars there was only one power that had one school (setting aside the Sith). In Fearun there are guilds of magic, some centered on race, small centered on city or land. No would look to a worldwide leadership that the Jedi council provided for the Republic.
-There exist multiple Force-using traditions and philosophies.
Indeed, I was just going to say much the same. There are many alternate Force-using traditions -- some of which are almost as old as the Jedi Order. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 03:55:32
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My most favorite Council of Mages is the Zulkirs'. It's more fun hearing a meeting full of disagreement (not to mention implicit threats) than one mostly comprised of acquiescence.
What I would like to see in the Realms is an organization akin to Midkemia's Conclave of Shadows. The Harpers is close. But unlike the Harpers, the Conclave is composed of people who are the most (or second/third to the most) powerful in their individual organizations/orders/kingdoms/nations, and even worlds (as some are from a different world, Kelewan). It's rather easy for Pug to extract necessary information from almost every nook and cranny of Midkemia and Kelewan, and introduce a change or present a solution that wouldn't involve much of his magical might. Likewise, it would have been easy for Elminster had his Harpers been as influential and powerful. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 07:42:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What I would like to see in the Realms is an organization akin to Midkemia's Conclave of Shadows. The Harpers is close. But unlike the Harpers, the Conclave is composed of people who are the most (or second/third to the most) powerful in their individual organizations/orders/kingdoms/nations, and even worlds (as some are from a different world, Kelewan). It's rather easy for Pug to extract necessary information from almost every nook and cranny of Midkemia and Kelewan, and introduce a change or present a solution that wouldn't involve much of his magical might. Likewise, it would have been easy for Elminster had his Harpers been as influential and powerful.
From what I recall (haven't read Midkemia books since A Kingdom Besieged came out... and the post service left my copy out in the rain), the Conclave has agents of all sorts among them, ranging from low-level enforcers and traveling agents to world-altering epic mages.
Of course, Feist has also pointed out that although Pug and Magnus are powerful, they're only two people. It tends to limit their ability to be everywhere and do everything. In Kingdom Besieged there are still places that Pug has never been, and the Conclave doesn't have agents everywhere (e.g. the Keshian Confederacy has very few agents). Nor has Pug been everywhere, either. As I recall, there's an entire continent that practically nobody goes to in the books, and there are many places on Triagia that Pug hasn't seen (which is how a certain group of antagonists survived events from a previous series). |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 08:12:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
What I would like to see in the Realms is an organization akin to Midkemia's Conclave of Shadows. The Harpers is close. But unlike the Harpers, the Conclave is composed of people who are the most (or second/third to the most) powerful in their individual organizations/orders/kingdoms/nations, and even worlds (as some are from a different world, Kelewan). It's rather easy for Pug to extract necessary information from almost every nook and cranny of Midkemia and Kelewan, and introduce a change or present a solution that wouldn't involve much of his magical might. Likewise, it would have been easy for Elminster had his Harpers been as influential and powerful.
From what I recall (haven't read Midkemia books since A Kingdom Besieged came out... and the post service left my copy out in the rain), the Conclave has agents of all sorts among them, ranging from low-level enforcers and traveling agents to world-altering epic mages.
Of course, Feist has also pointed out that although Pug and Magnus are powerful, they're only two people. It tends to limit their ability to be everywhere and do everything. In Kingdom Besieged there are still places that Pug has never been, and the Conclave doesn't have agents everywhere (e.g. the Keshian Confederacy has very few agents). Nor has Pug been everywhere, either. As I recall, there's an entire continent that practically nobody goes to in the books, and there are many places on Triagia that Pug hasn't seen (which is how a certain group of antagonists survived events from a previous series).
'Tis a given that some members are low-level individuals. The most influential and most powerful members can't do everything; so they have to enlist some people below their ranks---most of whom are their own servants.
Though Pug hasn't been to all places in Feist's Universe, he's been to a lot, enough to make the Conclave quite far-reaching. Besides, Feist himself said that there are places in Midkemia and other worlds Pug---and only Pug--- visited that are not yet (and perhaps never will be) seen in print.
I think the main reason Fearunians don't see the need of this kind of organization is because most of their powerful prefer to deal threats as they come to their own lands, not before. And they also lack a world-spanning threat (like Midkemia's wars with the Tsuranni, Dasati, and Demon Legions). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 09:42:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Though Pug hasn't been to all places in Feist's Universe, he's been to a lot, enough to make the Conclave quite far-reaching. Besides, Feist himself said that there are places in Midkemia and other worlds Pug---and only Pug--- visited that are not yet (and perhaps never will be) seen in print.
Indeed - Pug actually mentioned several of them back in Prince of the Blood to Jimmy (the first one, that is...), explaining that it was one of the reasons that he was going to be leaving Stardock. The universe/multiverse is just too big for him to limit himself to a single world.
You know, it might be interesting for a group of plane-hopping PCs to meet Pug. Midkemia is based on D&D, after all...
quote:
I think the main reason Fearunians don't see the need of this kind of organization is because most of their powerful prefer to deal threats as they come to their own lands, not before. And they also lack a world-spanning threat (like Midkemia's wars with the Tsuranni, Dasati, and Demon Legions).
True, though there are options for more world-spanning threats to appear. I'd actually say that Sammaster's Dracorage could have become world-spanning if it wasn't already, though most people reacted to it on a case-by-case basis (as I recall, there were more than a few references to the Chosen running around calming down and in some cases fending off crazed dragons) rather than as a concerted effort.
Then there are things like the Age of Worms, or the approach of potential Elder Evils. Or other things that might be suited to an Epic-level campaign, though most of my epic-level stuff has wound up taking place on the planes more than on Toril alone. It's a big multiverse. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 10:23:54
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Working in concert is an almost alien term to Torilians. In Return of the Archwizards, after it was proven that the melting of the High Ice, which was the cause of the unnatural weather that nearly drowned a few realms, was the Shadovar's doing, I expected Cormyr and Waterdeep and their allies would work in concert and send a considerable chunk of their armies to attack Shade Enclave. Instead, we saw only a few. Even though they had the full support of the Chosen, their meager number proved insufficient. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 07 Jun 2011 10:28:27 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8027 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 11:01:02
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Faerūn also suffers from a strange dichotomy. Mages can instantly scry and teleport over limitless distances. The bulk of the population can only use medieval-era technologies to communicate and transport ... which basically means walking and wagons and ships and horses ... although they also have some access to flying mounts (and even flying ships). What we would think of as a simple phone call or television news report or flight or half-day drive would involve days or weeks or constant riding across the Realms. Large movements of un-magical things (like armies or caravans or migrations) can slow the pace down to a crawl burdened by complex logistics.
So it seems to me that really only the mages, and people (like Kings) who can employ them, can really have accurate recent information about foreign lands and the means to really do anything about it. The masses are basically blind to the world outside their city walls, aside from whatever embroidered tales the bards might bring ... obviously they're only going to react to things on a local and immediate level. It's probably why fuedal allegiances and alliances were so important in our history; an established hierarchy of power (and scapegoats) to govern the impossibly vast landscape. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 13:44:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Faerūn also suffers from a strange dichotomy. Mages can instantly scry and teleport over limitless distances. The bulk of the population can only use medieval-era technologies to communicate and transport ... which basically means walking and wagons and ships and horses ... although they also have some access to flying mounts (and even flying ships).
Thing is, each teleport spell that a mage expends (and it has to be a mage of at least mid-level ability to even get a teleport, let alone a greater teleport that can take them from one side of the planet to the other; the latter requires significantly more power) is one less that they can use for other things. If all your high-level mages are burning spell slots on teleporting around carrying messages, then their overall effectiveness in other areas is going to suffer. I think the 3rd edition FRCS points it out - mages might be able to teleport around, but they'll still walk a lot of the time. They can't afford to waste the "slots" that they have. And by the time you get to the point where you can afford to burn spell slots teleporting around, you're going to be powerful enough that carrying messages is beneath you - why carry messages when you can just use scry-and-die on your targets?
Summoning creatures to carry your messages for you would probably be a wiser course, but even then there are limits to the extent you can take it. As I recall, some merchants also use portals to move their caravans around, and while an entire army would be difficult without a rather large portal, it certainly helps with guerrilla strikes or the "Special Forces" of the various power players in the Realms. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2011 : 17:16:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Working in concert is an almost alien term to Torilians. In Return of the Archwizards, after it was proven that the melting of the High Ice, which was the cause of the unnatural weather that nearly drowned a few realms, was the Shadovar's doing, I expected Cormyr and Waterdeep and their allies would work in concert and send a considerable chunk of their armies to attack Shade Enclave. Instead, we saw only a few. Even though they had the full support of the Chosen, their meager number proved insufficient.
-The largest scale multiple kingdoms, and city-states have worked together, that I can think of off hand, would be the Tuigan invasion, and the moot that Cormyr, Rasheman, Zhentil Keep, the Dales, and Sembia had (with possibly other guests). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 04:40:01
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| If you want to think of the most important grand council, I think the greatest is the council of the Greater Deities. When reading the novel I got a feeling they do this a lot. Though must say, the attendance is not really important for some of the pantheons unless it is really urgent. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 04:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
If you want to think of the most important grand council, I think the greatest is the council of the Greater Deities. When reading the novel I got a feeling they do this a lot. Though must say, the attendance is not really important for some of the pantheons unless it is really urgent.
-That's true, but that's not really in Faerūn, is it?  |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 04:53:48
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Well, some of the deities do not really exist outside of Faerun?
Edit: Or do not really care about other worlds. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Edited by - Sill Alias on 08 Jun 2011 04:54:17 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 04:58:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Well, some of the deities do not really exist outside of Faerun?
Edit: Or do not really care about other worlds.
-The Cynosure, which is where those divine meetings take/took place, is a plane of it's own, and isn't on Faerūn, as the planar structure in Player's Guide to Faerūn shows. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:03:22
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I doubt Ao resides in the place in reach of Faerun... Just... Void.
Deities ultimately are beyond comprehension and the concepts of one world. Do you ask for meeting that comes exclusively on Faerun? I believe then you can browse mortal organizations (since I do not have knowledge of other), unless you are interested in Outer Planes? |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3762 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:08:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
Deities ultimately are beyond comprehension and the concepts of one world. Do you ask for meeting that comes exclusively on Faerun? I believe then you can browse mortal organizations (since I do not have knowledge of other), unless you are interested in Outer Planes?
-Right, that's what I'm saying. The Cynosure and the gatherings that take place there aren't technically on Faerūn. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2011 : 05:09:47
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If it's purely composed of magicians, I guess the most interesting council is the Assembly of Great Ones from Kelewan. Though their lack of leadership often proved their undoing...until Pug stepped in.
In Faerun, considering their number and power-level, I guess the Assembly's equivalence would be the Elven High Mages. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Jedi Counsil... Fearun stile
