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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
  
909 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 19:54:28
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I've been working on a fanon write up for my home version of Amn, and have run into an unanticipated problem.
What is the exact size of Amn in square miles?! Or - for that matter - Faerūn and Toril itself?
This becomes an issue for one important reason: the size of Amn will determine how large of a population the land can support. The size of the population will then help give an idea of how wealthy Amn actually is... and what type of problems may exist.
I attempted to determine the size using two separate methods, both of which could have been horrifically flawed on my end. The first was to use the cartography page on the FR Wiki. Although non-canon it does use canon material to help guide its assumptions. It assumes Toril is an earth sized planet.
The problem? Using my estimates Amn appears to be extraordinarily tiny. Tiny as in less than 2,000 square miles in size, assuming I didn't screw up somewhere.
It should be noted that my version of Amn "claims" the following territory: from the north the entire Cloud Peak Mountain Range, the Snakewood, south along the southern hills of the Troll Mountains and Giant's Plain, ultimately ending where the Deepwash begins. The claimed territory extends as far south as the edge of the Wealdath Forest, including the formerly rebellious Riatavin.
To get a visual representation of Amn's claimed territory review this map I made. The area marked in purple is the territory claimed by Amn.
Much of this, of course, is wilderness. The bulk of Amnian people are located between the Cloud Peaks and the Small Teeth mountains, and settlements along the northern edge of the Wealdath Forest.
As I was unsatisfied with the first method, I attempted to get a more accurate measurement. So I used the 3E Map and the distance scale located on the map. Assuming I didn't screw up somewhere, I estimated that Amn claimed roughly 216,000 square miles of territory. This makes Amn's claimed territory slightly larger than modern day France.
...so yes, let's just say either I screwed up horribly, or something went wrong... If Amn really is as large as modern day France this would definitely make Toril larger than Earth. That's not a huge problem, as it doesn't really break anything, no one is going to ask: "How big is this planet, and how is its gravity not crushing us?"
This is important as it will help me estimate the population of Amn. According to the Lands of Intrigue Amn has an estimated population of 3,600,000 (adults only). However, using Midieval Demographics Made Easy and my estimation based on the map (and canon lore on the fertility of Amn), I estimated that the nation had roughly 16,200,000 people total.
Obviously, this is a huge difference. While I have no issues on changing the population of Amn to more accurately reflect real demographics, I cannot help but feel I screwed up in estimating its size.
There may be no real canon answer here, but the thoughts of others is most definitely desired. I'm willing to share what I have if anyone is interested.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
   
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 21:00:32
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See Ed's 2004 answers thread, around Dec 31 2004 where Ed and another scribe named Jerryd arrived at the following figures for Toril:
Equatorial Diameter: 14,290 km (8,880 miles) Polar Diameter: 14,190 km (8,820 miles) Volume: 1.517x10^21 m^3 Density: 4.941 g/cm^3 Mass: 7.497x10^24 kg Surface Gravity: 9.798 m/s^2 Axial Tilt: 28.885° (28°53') |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
   
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 21:18:26
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Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting 3rd Edition p. 153 gives the population of Amn as 2,963,520 (83% human, 15% halfling, 1% orcs). It also has the breakdown of the population for specific cities.
Those figures are canon, at least for 1372 DR, although perhaps you wanted to estimate your own figures. Still looking for some sort of measure of the size of Amn for you. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
    
5056 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 21:20:28
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Hi, Aldrick. Let me go through your post in detail, providing answers and explanations where I can. First of all, no "exact size" of any country in the Realms has ever been worked out, in square miles. Not only do folk in the Realms not use such measurements, there are rarely "hard and fast" borders for countries except naturally hard-to-measure (and changing over time, or disputable depending on who's doing the measuring) natural boundaries like rivers, seacoasts, mountain ranges, etc. It has been long established (as in, from 1967 on, and in the published Realms from 1987 on) that Toril IS larger than our Earth. So the wiki you relied on is wrong from the outset. Toril isn't a LOT larger than Earth, but it is larger. And you're right, no one IN THE REALMS is going to ask the size of the planet or why its graviy isn't crushing; to them, the gravitational aspects of Toril are normal; aside from the rare few planar travelers, they've never known any other conditions. You posted: "the size of Amn will determine how large of a population the land can support. The size of the population will then help give an idea of how wealthy Amn actually is... and what type of problems may exist." Well, no. Or at least, not in any greater than the roughest of general "macro" terms. Here's the thing: "support" how? Feed and water? House? Furnish jobs for? Be very careful, when answering those questions, that you aren't applying real-world modern thinking, given our known non-magical environment, etc. Jobs in the Realms, at a medieval-cum-Renaissance level distorted by magic and faith and racial aspects of employment, plus ongoing warfare, etc. WILL cause far different employment patterns. Amn is also a trading/moneylending crossroads, with a concentration of wealth (and an annual migration south from Waterdeep of all of its wealthy citizens who don't want to "winter over" in that damp, COLD seaport; since the political troubles in Tethyr, Amn has been the favorite wintering-over region for the vast majority of these Waterdhavians) out of all proportion to its domestic production (think of the city of New York in the USA: does it produce enough food, within its boundaries, to feed its citizens? Nope, and hasn't, really, ever; even when it was the small port of New Amsterdam, a lot of food came from nearby inland farms, and a little from ships docking there, too). The problem is some of the assumptions you're making, when you post: "Much of this, of course, is wilderness. The bulk of Amnian people are located between the Cloud Peaks and the Small Teeth mountains, and settlements along the northern edge of the Wealdath Forest." Your second sentence is dead-on correct; your first one is utterly wrong. Much of Amn is RANCHLAND, open grazing land with large tended herds AND wild herds of edible and draft animals moving about. There are fenced market farms along the banks of all of Amn's rivers, and much use is made of navigable waterways. See Ed's Crimmor city DRAGON article for a sense of the crowding and busy caravan trade and the upriver agriculture. Also, the Cloud Peaks range, particularly at its eastern end, is mainly rolling farmlands, of mixed crops and goat, sheep, oxen, and rothé herds, not to mention horsebreeding; since the early 1980s, Ed has been running GenCon adventures using the Baron's Blades adventuring band as PCs. The Blades serve the Baron of Hawkhill, that barony being in the easternmost Cloud Peaks. The Blades spend a lot of time riding along miles of lanes to reach the site of the latest calamity they have to deal with - - and aside from woodlots and the odd rugged tor, those lanes wind through FARMLAND that exports quite a bit of produce north to Baldur's Gate, Elturel, and Waterdeep and east, via passing caravans, to Teziir and the Lake of Dragons area . . . as well as feeding a lot of "downland" (as in, not in the mountains) Amn. Amn is well-watered, fertile land for the most part, and its southeastern reaches have been grainfields for centuries. So it can support a LOT of people. And the higher figure of population you came up with is closer to the truth (which will never been known) than the Lands of Intrigue figure, which is based on ADULTS ON THE TAX ROLLS (meaning it excludes non-city-and-market-town dwellers who aren't landowners). So every traveling merchant, every rural farmer who could pay a bribe to avoiding going on the rolls or who was just "elsewhere" at the time of those rolls being created, every outland visitor, every priest or inhabitant of a temple (novices, lay staff, etc.), everyone who rents where they live or is allowed to sleep in the shop or warehouse or business they work in, and everyone the tax collectors just don't get to (meaning the majority of those who hunt in the Wealdath or live in remote upcountry Cloud Peaks locations) isn't included in that 3-and-a-half-million figure. For the same reason (no overall accurate census ever done, Amn is a crossroads place that people move to and away from constantly, etc.) the real total will never be made clear...but your over-16-million figure is closer to it than the Lands of Intrigue total. In the end, exact size and precise population numbers don't really matter. What matters is that you have a clear mental notion of what Amn is, that works for you in your campaign, and that you are "comfortable" with. Your post reflects an obvious lack of comfort with the size aspect of Amn, so let's talk more about this. As one of Ed's "home campaign" players for over thirty years now. I can attest that Ed thought all of this through when designing his world (Amn being firmly part of his original, pre-D&D Realms), so all of the countries "work" when it comes to trade flows, food, et al. Though the detailed and complex Realms he's created may defy, almost as thoroughly as our complex real-world, simplified economist's models for defining and describing countries. Remember, the world is ALWAYS less simple than we think it is, or try to make it so we can discuss it meaningfully. So, too, the Realms... love, THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 22 May 2011 21:21:10 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
    
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 22:04:20
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Magic does indeed have an effect on trade, although one could postulate that the existence of monsters (even of the humanoid variety) offsets that, so as to almost break-even compared to a RW model (but that's all speculation, having no real, 'hard' data to work with).
As for population, consider this: In the RW you only have to consider surface area. In a fantasy setting, you must include Subterranean, UnderSea, and even ariel races in your figures (and YES, there are lots of creatures that actually dwell in the sky, not just fly there). Then you must consider "how far does Amn's border extend up and down?" - something you normally wouldn't consider RW.
Add to that that any 'official' population figures you read in-source will only take into account Humanish (humans and demi-humans) settlements. Hundreds of other races exist in wilderness areas (which comprise much of the map) that aren't accounted for, and entire kingdoms exist WITHIN the borders of other kingdoms, neither of which even acknowledging the other (a situation that would never last long RW).
For instance, how do you even begin to separate the Dalelands from Elven Cormanthyr? Is it even possible? And that's not even an example of beings who do not acknowledge each other's borders (as the case would be when humanoids are involved).
So there may be 16 million 'people' in Amn, or 60 million, or a hundred billion, depending upon who you count (I am sure there are intelligent micro-organisms existing in and on D&D worlds). There are just too many creatures that are borderline: while Grimlocks are humanish in appearance they are little more then feral beasts, but there are energy, gas, and silicon (amongst numerous others) life-forms in the Realms that bear no resemblance to humanity, and yet are 'people'.
The (scientific) rulebook goes right out the window when dealing with Fantasy geography. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 May 2011 16:20:03 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
    
4694 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 22:21:18
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Aldrick, there are so many factors you did not include. THO has indicated some of them, I however would add a few comments.
In a world of magic, crop yields can be higher, thanks to the nearby Druid. In D&D and by extension (depending on version) FR, the amount of food required per day is smaller then Earth per human. FR residents are well literate, which was not true of the Middle Ages. This of course leading to better farming practice. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards." "Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding. "After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first." "Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
  
909 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 22:58:02
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Thanks Gray, THO, Markustay, and Kentinal. You guys are awesome.
Gray -
I think the lower population figure given for Amn in the 3E FRCS is due to many of the southern settlements falling into rebellion and the Sythillisian War. Of course, based off the information THO gave us those population figures aren't all that accurate to begin with...
THO -
Thanks so much for your post. It helped clear up a lot of problems, particularly my concerns over population. It's made very clear in the canon that Amn is a fertile land, and it's directly stated that they're able to produce enough surplus food each year to sell to other nations / city-states.
When it comes to humans at least, population tends to be closely linked to a food source. Add to that the fact that Amn is a major center for trade, and it would be difficult to imagine Amn having a population under six million - at least.
My goal in determining the exact size of Amn is really manifold.
First, I'm setting my Realms after the Spellplague, but I am not sticking with the canon. This means that my Amn is going to be set at least 100 years in the future, at a minimum.
Second, having a reasonably good idea regarding the size of Amn helps determine how long it takes to travel from place to place.
Third, it helps determine just how much wild land exists, and thus allows me to incorporate roaming monsters and the like in those regions. It allows me to answer questions like: 'How much can the land reasonably support before the Orcs run out of food and have to begin raiding the human settlements of Amn?'
Fourth, it gives me a good idea of how populated the cities and towns would be... the majority of humans living in cities is extremely modern (it probably happened in the lifetimes of some of us). Throughout history the majority of people have lived in rural areas, and this is definitely true about the entire Realms. (My current estimations have 4% living in cities, with 94% living in rural areas, and 2% in extremely remote or isolated areas.)
Fifth, it gives me a good idea of what type of shops and the like are likely to be discovered in larger settlements. It helps me mentally picture Athkatla and what it must be like to walk through Waukeen's Promenade, and the better my mental picture the better I am able to describe it to others.
With the information I am able to distill I can better understand just how wealthy Amn is, and the type of military force it can bring to bare against its rivals and enemies should it be provoked. I can determine the logical location of a magic shop that would interest adventurers. I can also determine the exact holdings of a wealthy Amnian merchant, the trades that such holdings would logically support, and thus exactly how much wealth such a merchant would reasonably possess, etc.
So, while I completely agree that the people of the Realms wouldn't be worried about exactly how large Amn is in square miles, it is extraordinarily helpful to me and my ability to mentally understand and picture the nation.
Markus / Kentinal -
I'm aware that magic can influence things. However, I am deliberately ignoring this because of changes to my overall Realms. Magic is less prevalent than before, simply due to the Spellplague. However, when it comes to Amn the nation was never all that enthusiastic about magic to begin with, at least of the arcane variety. I find it unlikely that Amn is using druids and clerics on a large enough scale to make an overall impact that would greatly differ things from the real world.
Regardless, I think we can agree that magic would likely influence things in a positive direction rather than a negative direction. As a result, anything that I produce is at least hitting a minimum which leaves the maximum debatable.
Of greater concern are the things that could NEGATIVELY impact Amnian's such as monstrous humanoids, magic blighted land, etc. By and large I am making the assumption that most of the interior of Amn (the area between the Cloud Peaks and the Small Teeth Mountains) is relatively safe aside from the occasional raids. Most monsters in my model would dwell within the mountains, deeper forests, and the vast land between Lake Esmel and the Snowflake Mountains. Which leads me to imagine nomadic bands of gnolls and orcs moving across the land hunting wild game such as rothé. Such bands would occasionally dip into more "civilized" lands of Amn stealing sheep, goats, and cattle for food as they'd be easy pickings, but dangerous if done too often.
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
  
909 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2011 : 23:33:16
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If anyone is interested; this is what I've written down so far. It's a mix of canonical and homebrew stuff, and it's Amn 100+ years post Spellplague.
quote: The Merchant Kingdom of Amn
"The Merchant Kingdom," as it is frequently called throughout the Realms, was nearly brought to its knees by the ravages of the Spellplague. Things were already going poorly before the Year of Blue Fire, as Amn struggled to deal with rebellious southerners defecting to a stabilized and strong Tethyr, revolts within the colonies - particularly Maztica - and the aftermath of the Sythillisian War. All of these things weighed heavy on Amn, and just when it looked as if the Merchant Kingdom had turned the corner things got worse.
In the wake of the Spellplague virtually no major settlement went unravaged. Even the beloved Amnian capital city of Athkatla saw major destruction, with nearly two thirds of all its buildings leveled or burned to the ground. Hundreds of thousands died, if not more, not only as a result of the destruction, but to the plagues and famine that followed. Vast numbers of refugees that flooded forth from the cities into the countryside turned to banditry and lawlessness, which only further prolonged the devastating event.
The majority of the Council of Six died in the destruction of Athkatla, and most that survived lacked the legitimacy and ability to hold the government together. All except one. Though in his early 70's Erlranther Alibakkar, the Meisarch of the Council, publicly declared a state of emergency and named himself First Councilor of Amn. He gathered what remained of the Amnian military, and numerous mercenaries that were willing to fight and secured what was left of Athkatla. With none able to resist he stabilized the city and began working to restore order to the surrounding countryside, and ideally to all of Amn.
Though he did not live to see his plans come to fruition, he singlehandedly laid the foundation for the new Amnian government that arose from the ashes. It would take nearly twenty-five years for Amn to be restored to a sense of stability, and in that period drastic changes were made.
Today, Amn has recovered much of her former glory. The Merchant Kingdom is the wealthiest nation in all of Faerūn, and there is rarely a single coin that does not touch an Amnian hand at one time or another. The cult of Waukeen flourishes and considers the nation its spiritual home on the mortal plane; and the cults largest temple (one of the wonders of the new world) is located in the capital of Athkatla. As in the past, so it is today: business is trade, and trade is business - the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Country and Climate
Over the centuries there have been numerous defections of border cities and towns along the shared border with Tethyr. This has created a rivalry between the two nations, which has seen Amn strongly secure its southern border. For the last seventy-five years the borders of Amn have remained stable, and look unlikely to change anytime soon.
Amn is well known for its grand claims of territory, but these claims are often disputed by local nations and rival city-states, which occasionally leads to minor border disputes. The territory claimed by Amn encompasses nearly 216,000 square miles and includes the entire range of the Cloud Peaks, the Snakewood, south along the southern hills of the Troll Mountains and Giant's Plain, ultimately ending where the Deepwash begins. The claimed territory extends as far south as the edge of the Wealdath Forest, including the formerly rebellious Riatavin.
While Amn makes remarkable claims, the bulk of the nations population is located between the Cloud Peaks to the north and the Small Teeth Mountains to the south. The majority of the claimed territory is complete wilderness (roughly 126,000 square miles or 58%), with the remaining land settled and locally controlled (roughly 90,000 square miles or 41%). The main population centers are along the trade roads which crisscross the nation. These trade roads also allow Amn to quickly move mercenary troops and supplies, giving them at least some ability to back up their claims if necessary.
The population density of Amn is 75 people per square mile, and it is populated by an estimated 16,200,000 people. The vast majority live in the rural areas of the nation (94% or an estimated 15,288,000 people). The remaining population is divided between the urban areas (4% or an estimated 648,000 people), and remote isolated areas (2% or an estimated 324,000 people). The most populated area of Amn is its capital city of Athkatla which has an estimated population of 71,162 people.
The climate of the Merchant's Kingdom varies depending on latitude and elevation. The bulk of Amn's population, which is nestled between the Cloud Peaks and the Small Teeth Mountains, experiences a warm and pleasant climate year round. The summers tend to be mild and dry; with a risk of lightning storms and tornadoes along with wildfires. The winters tend to be mild as well, but extremely wet - most of the rain received in the year occurs during the winter. Along the rivers, coast, and lakes there is a moderate chance of flooding in low lying areas in the winter.
The Cloud Peaks, due to their elevation, tend to be snow covered year round. Snow occasionally happens as far south as Athkatla, and winters there tend to be more cool and wet than in some of the more low lying areas. Amnian's can expect rainfall anywhere between twenty-five and fifty inches per year depending on location.
Like most nations, Amn is primarily an agrarian society, and its land is highly suited to agriculture of all types. The people farm everything from root crops to grains and fruits, and are able to provide more than enough surplus each harvest to ensure lucrative trade agreements with other nations.
Amn's highest point is Mount Speartop, which is nearly three miles above Amn's lowest point which is located at the seaport city of Murann. The Cloud Peaks, the Small Teeth, and the Troll Mountains direct runoff water toward Lake Esmel and the flood plains along the coast. Amn is crisscrossed with rivers, lakes, and streams which supplies the nation with ample amounts of water. Amn's second largest lake, after Lake Esmel, is Lake Weng which is created by highlands at the base of the Cloud Peaks.
Amn used to experience much colder winters and less stormy summers. However, after the Spellplague the temperature of Toril has begun to rise slightly, and as a result the nation rarely experiences snowfall except in the North along the Cloud Peaks. The rivers and lakes rarely freeze in the winter, except for Lake Weng, and this has led to a more prolonged harvesting season which begins several weeks earlier and ends several weeks later.
Something that has me puzzled exactly what type of weather would exist in the main interior of Amn (the region between the Cloud Peaks and the Small Teeth). The two mountain ranges, unless I'm completely misunderstanding how mountain ranges work, would have an important impact on the local weather - trapping moisture and storm systems. Warm air rises over the sea coast, travels inland, and then mixes with the cooler air coming down from the Cloud Peaks.
...or something like that.  |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
  
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 00:17:30
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Here is something the scribes here may find interesting. I just did a measurement of the 3E Map of Faerūn. According to that measurement, the displayed area is roughly 8,769,600 square miles. This doesn't include the Moonshae Isles, but does include the Sea of Fallen Stars.
It should be noted that North America is 9,361,791 square miles. So, if we were to include the Great Glacier and everything north of it (such as Sossal), then Faerūn would cover an area almost exactly the size of North America. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 23 May 2011 00:18:39 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
   
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 07:22:40
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Interesting discussion. I can't wait to see what Aldrick thinks up next. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
    
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 07:45:03
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Wasn't the 3E map of Faerun shrunk down a bit? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding." Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
    
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 08:45:50
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For the most part, yes. Some of the empty spaces were condensed, while other regions were crunched into smaller spaces.
But as Steven Schend has noted in the past, " ... remember that world maps for our own world changed multitudinous times over the centuries, so I'd say use whatever maps make you happiest with the Realms and be done with the rest."
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Edited by - The Sage on 23 May 2011 08:46:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
    
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 16:52:45
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Originally, Faerūn was BIGGER then the United States (there is a map - in the OGB I think - that shows the two super-imposed).
In 3e, the settled areas remained pretty-much the same size, but the rural areas - The Shaar in particular - lost a tremendous amount of territory. What that did was leave much of the settled lands consistent to themselves (locally), but caused massive weirdness in regards to neighboring lands; the north/south axis got really strange because the continent was also rotated 7.2 (IIRC) degrees between 2e and 3e (which I put back 'the right way' on all of my maps). For instance, Ten Towns used to be above the Great Glacier - in 3e it was below.
Strangely, on the world map in the 3e FRCS, the map was NOT rotated and Faerūn retained it's original orientation... go figure.
As for Amn, In my Realms I replaced it, Tethyr, and Calimshan with a theocratic empire similar to the Holy Roman Empire. Amn and Tethyr I lost completely (I feel Amn is redundant with Sembia), but I moved Calimshan over to where I thought it was a better fit.
In fact, that empire turned into the basis for my own HB setting. 
Still, I am greatly interested what you (and others) have done with the place. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
  
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 17:59:38
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Yes, I also felt that Amn was redundant with Sembia. However, I went in the opposite direction.
Sembia has been conquered by an Imperial Cormyr, which in turn is at war with the Elves which have returned to Cormanthyr and Myth Drannor. They're also in conflict with the Dalelands, which have merged into a lose confederation, who are not only attempting to hold off imperialistic advances from Cormyr to the south, but the Elves which seek to reclaim their homeland.
Cormanthyr is the last kingdom of the Elves on Toril. Evermeet and Evereska are both gone, and the elves have had additional issues that have... shall we say... complicated their lives. However, Myth Drannor is strong, and since Shade is gone, for the humans Myth Drannor plays the role of antagonist in the region. (Though from the Elves prospective the humans are the antagonists.)
The Eldreth Veluuthra has more power and influence than ever before among the Elves... and there are similar human groups who hate the Elves just as much. In particular in Cormyr due to some events that took place there in the aftermath of the Spellplague.
Cormyr sounds very similar to what you've done to Amn, Calimshan, and Tethyr. It is imperialistic and the War Wizards are gone (due to events that took place in the aftermath of the Spellplague), but their role has been filled by the Cult of the Purifying Flame. It formed out of a splinter sect that broke away during the formation of the early cult of Amaunator. They believe that Amaunator and Kossuth are the same being, and they base this knowledge off the creation mythos regarding Shar and Selūne (the Sisters of Light and Darkness). In the myth, which they take to be literal truth, Selūne reaches into the divine realm of Kossuth, burns herself as she grabs the fire and kindles the light of the sun (Amaunator).
The cult tends to lean more toward Kossuth's side of things, as the name would imply... and they likely receive their divine powers from him, though other deities could also be behind it. Regardless, the cult is extremely influential in Cormyr and has effectively become a de facto state religion. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
    
5056 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 18:19:44
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Hi again, Aldrick. Re. this: "Something that has me puzzled exactly what type of weather would exist in the main interior of Amn (the region between the Cloud Peaks and the Small Teeth). The two mountain ranges, unless I'm completely misunderstanding how mountain ranges work, would have an important impact on the local weather - trapping moisture and storm systems. Warm air rises over the sea coast, travels inland, and then mixes with the cooler air coming down from the Cloud Peaks. ...or something like that."
"Something like that," indeed. The amount of orographic rainfall (caused by the bracketing mountain ranges) depends on the prevailing winds. You can make changes to Amn to your heart's content (as you have in your posts here, by deeming most of the Cloud Peaks snow-covered and most of Amn "wilderness"), but unless you're going to fall back on "it's different in the Realms because it's all magical" argument, weather "works" about the same in the Realms as it does in the real world. Which means rain, steering of storms, etc. in the region of Amn WILL be dependent on wind flows. In the "home" Realms, as Ed envisaged it when he created the whole show, the prevailing winds in Amn are onshore (that is, blowing west to east, the length of the kingdom) and in the eastern third of Amn, blowing more gently but more steadily from the northeast (that is, over the Cloud Peaks and heading diagonally across the realm toward the Wealdath). Which makes Amn always breezy, with seabreezes blowing ashore and bringing storms with them, but if not stormy, blowing about halfway across Amn before they begin to dump moisture, as "ground fogs" or rain - - and eastern Amn having frequent short showers in its southern half (into the Wealdath), plus rare but spectacular REAL storms two-thirds of the way across Amn inland from the coast, when strong, moist winds from both sources collide. Note that you don't have to adopt any of this; just change the prevailing winds that Ed postulated for Amn's microclimate. However, be aware that you'd better arrange them in some way that gives the realm enough rainfall, or you'll have a dustbowl avoided only by magical means (or worse, an unexplained dichotomy). On a personal level, I disagree with you about Amn and Sembia being redundant. The Realms isn't a zoo, with one exhibit of each sort of culture/style of government/(worst of all) real-world analogue. Rather, rivalries between countries with similar cultures, interests, and industries make for greater ongoing play opportunities...just the way Ed set it up. By all means change things for your own campaign, which has to please and entertain you and your usual players above all else. I'm just pointing out that having a "Romans go here, Mongols go there, we don't need more than one of each" approach makes for a far less rich, and more predictable, version of the Realms than Ed's original. love, THO
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
    
USA
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
    
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 19:50:16
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I never figured a precise number, except for the rotation, because I had to put it back right for my maps. A LOT was lost (both Erlkazar and Shaareach disappeared, amongst other things, like mountain ranges and forests). I had a lot of fun recreating the 1e/2e terrain on the 3e map.
Unfortunately, I never posted my full continental map (the file was too huge), and now it is lost forever.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
    
USA
3746 Posts |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
  
909 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2011 : 21:40:51
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Oh, I agree with you THO. That's not what I meant by redundant. It was more an issue of theme. Amn is treated as a realm of merchants and so was Sembia. There was nothing wrong with that, per-say, as there could be many merchant kingdoms. However, Sembia was dealt a huge blow in the canon and was basically taken over by Shade. Since returned Netheril no longer exists in my Realms 100+ years post Spellplague, what remained of Sembia (a patch work of feuding merchant princes, mostly) was conquered by Cormyr.
Thematically, in my Realms, I want Amn to have a strong and distinctive identity separate from other nations. Central to that identity is that they ARE the Merchant's Kingdom / Merchant's Domain. A place where anyone and everything is for sale. There are quite obviously many places that are also heavily involved in mercantile efforts, including virtually all of Amn's neighbors. Mercantilism is quite obviously central to the Realms, but not necessarily central to the theme of a region or nation of the Realms. Just as Thay is, for example, thematically 'a land ruled by evil wizards', or the North is 'a cold, rugged, and dangerous frontier land.'
Re: The Climate / Weather of Amn
quote: In the "home" Realms, as Ed envisaged it when he created the whole show, the prevailing winds in Amn are onshore (that is, blowing west to east, the length of the kingdom) and in the eastern third of Amn, blowing more gently but more steadily from the northeast (that is, over the Cloud Peaks and heading diagonally across the realm toward the Wealdath).
Which makes Amn always breezy, with seabreezes blowing ashore and bringing storms with them, but if not stormy, blowing about halfway across Amn before they begin to dump moisture, as "ground fogs" or rain - - and eastern Amn having frequent short showers in its southern half (into the Wealdath), plus rare but spectacular REAL storms two-thirds of the way across Amn inland from the coast, when strong, moist winds from both sources collide.
This is very close to how I pictured the weather working in Amn. I pictured the Cloud Peaks as being pretty tall, as their peaks are covered with snow most of the year which melts to feed the rivers and lakes in the summer months.
I imagine the climate of Amn to feel similar to some areas of California and Southern France, but with slightly more rain. Typically mild to warm, with limited snowfall if any. I warmed my Amn slightly more than in canon, but that is subject to change based on the other regions that I work out. This was in part due to the fact that it felt odd (to me) to have the rivers and lakes of Amn freezing over in the winter (as described in the Lands of Intrigue), and yet have the Jungle of Chult not that far to the south. Jungles typically appear near the tropics, assuming of course Chult is not a magical jungle.
Anyway, I pictured Amn having a moderate to high risk of tornadoes and wildfires in the summer months. In the summer the warm air is heated over the sea, blows in across the coast, and forms a storm a bit into the interior of the country. This happens when cool air from the Cloud Peaks meets the warm air that blows in from the coast. Yet, the storms are somewhat "trapped" due to the Small Teeth Mountains, which causes the winds to blow back off the mountains into Amn, causing rotation in the storm systems of that region. Storms also bring lightning, and while Amn is a very well hydrated nation, which helps contribute to its fertility, the summer months also tend to be the most dry which raises a low to moderate risk of wildfire in some areas.
The rainy season happens in late fall and throughout the bulk of winter, which is when Amn receives the bulk of its rainfall. Athkatla occasionally gets some light snowfall, but not necessarily every year. Most of the snow happens in the Cloud Peaks and the area closest to it in the south as well as to the north.
The weather conditions in the Cloud Peaks frequently create problems for trade in the winter months, and non-perishable goods are typically "held over" in Amn by caravans moving north along the Trade Way during those months. This increases the population of some of the cities during those months, especially Crimmor, which actually has some the wealthier merchants preying upon impatient caravans seeking to travel north. (They purchase their goods at a discount, and then sell them at marked up prices when the Trade Way clears in the spring and summer.) |
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