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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
 Posted - 24 May 2011 : 10:14:31
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| Well due to the proximity of both cities I think everything this large affecting one of them will although affect the other. So all those people watching over waterdeep will have an close eye on Skullport too. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 11:45:27
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There is commerce between Skukkport and Waterdeep, an attack on one would in effect be an attack on both.
While official stated policy of Waterdeep is not supportive of Skullport, the seceret policy is Waterdeep depends on Skullport to handle trade and other issues. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 12:25:56
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And Sembia trades with several cities, probably numbering more than those that Skullport trades with. Yet why didn't those cities rise to help Sembia fight the Shadovar?! The answer is plain: Telamont's tactic worked. While it may not be universal---it may prove insufficient when used on some realms---I see no reason why it can't work on Skullport.
Waterdeep may consider Skullport important, but when faced with Shade's threat, is it ready to shoulder tremendous losses just to save Skullport? Even if they win the fight against Shade, there would be a considerably big hole in their treasury which might take decades to fill. Some possessions and allies are worth keeping. But, does Waterdeep deem Skullport worth it if it means being encumbered by those risks? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 13:19:02
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Yes beause Skullport lies directly beneath Waterdeep, to let the shades take a foothold there would be like giving them some district within the city itself.
They would never allow something like this to happen if they can prevent it. So everyone who tries to take over Skullport has to expect Waterdeept to intervene. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 13:56:38
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I don't think so. Skullport is not part of Waterdeep. Besides, putting it the way you do, it's like saying Waterdeep is sharing its district with several of Toril's evil denizens, who conduct commerce with Skullport. No matter how important it is to them, the Waterdhavians are better off letting it go to the Shadovar than sacrificing a tenth or a quarter of her army and emptying her treasury. Besides, the Shadovar can seize Skullport without risking a direct confrontation with Waterdeep. As I noted, they can teleport it to Shadowfell; repair the mythallar from there [that is, provided it's still fixable]; and teleport the enclave back to the Prime, in Anauroch, where they could finally raise it. Once it's floating, I doubt Waterdeep would be stupid to take it back. It's not even theirs in the first place. Not to mention they'd be in enemy territory. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 14:31:08
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| Why would Sargauth Enclave float? It never floated to begin with... |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 15:10:32
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Because Telamont can make it so. He can even make another enclave and create a new working mythallar, but at a great cost to his being [stated in Shadowbred]. Seizing an existing enclave with a fairly functioning [damaged but fixable] mythallar is more practical. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 16:29:10
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I think again we're coming back to how powerful Shade is in your game vs. how powerful it is canonically.
If in your game, Shade has the resources to take over a distant territory, without attracting the notice of or being able to fight nearby economic and magic powerhouse Waterdeep (or any of the extremely powerful denizens thereof who would see Shade's intrusion as a huge risk), then go for it.
Canonically, my impression is that Telamont is much less powerful, much more practical, and not prone to major overreaches like that. But who knows? Maybe we'll see it in print!
I think it would make a very interesting adventure for one of the 12 Princes to get it in his head to go conquer Skullport against his father's wishes/hesitations, only to run into unforeseen dangers that (in his arrogance) the prince assumed wouldn't be a problem. Enter the PCs, on one side or the other (heroes of Waterdeep or agents of Shade). And there you go!
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 18:40:21
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Sargauth's enclave had a mythal, different from mythallar
besides a nearby river has an enormous aboleth that could wipe the floor with the shades |
z455t |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 18:47:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I don't think so. Skullport is not part of Waterdeep. Besides, putting it the way you do, it's like saying Waterdeep is sharing its district with several of Toril's evil denizens, who conduct commerce with Skullport. No matter how important it is to them, the Waterdhavians are better off letting it go to the Shadovar than sacrificing a tenth or a quarter of her army and emptying her treasury. Besides, the Shadovar can seize Skullport without risking a direct confrontation with Waterdeep. As I noted, they can teleport it to Shadowfell; repair the mythallar from there [that is, provided it's still fixable]; and teleport the enclave back to the Prime, in Anauroch, where they could finally raise it. Once it's floating, I doubt Waterdeep would be stupid to take it back. It's not even theirs in the first place. Not to mention they'd be in enemy territory.
-This is a good point. Waterdeep, above ground, comes first, to the Lord of Waterdeep. Skullport (and Undermountain) sitting beneath Waterdeep has always given the city something of a ticking time bomb underneath it. It's not as if things creeping up out of Skullport and Undermountain and causing problems in Waterdeep is unheard of. Both Skullport and Undermountain are/were ruled by wild cards as well. With Skullport, there was plenty of lawlessness, with the Skulls "governing" things according to whatever odd sense of government they had. Undermountain was governed by Halaster, who did just whatever the hell he wanted.
-To the Waterdhavian elite, the Shadovar could represent two things: (A) a powerful source of trade, especially with their annexation of Sembia, and their ability to control the Anauroch (negating the influence the Zhentarim would have on trade in the North), and (B) a force that could bring stability to Skullport (and Undermountain, to a lesser degree), such that incidents like things rising up from down there to do bad things in Waterdeep would happen less frequently. As evidenced by how the Shadovar have treated Sembia, if they came into control of Skullport, they wouldn't suddenly kick everyone out and turn it into a bastion of shadowy evil. They're more pragmatic than that. |
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Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 18:55:03
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Good points, LK. I think by annexing Skullport, the Shades would bring several obvious benefits to Waterdeep, but they would also bring several subtle dangers (not the least of which is their eventual goal to take over the city). A whole campaign could be organized around the unfolding Shadovar occupation of Skullport.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 19:09:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Good points, LK. I think by annexing Skullport, the Shades would bring several obvious benefits to Waterdeep, but they would also bring several subtle dangers (not the least of which is their eventual goal to take over the city). A whole campaign could be organized around the unfolding Shadovar occupation of Skullport.
-Of course. They pulled a few things that the Lord of Waterdeep weren't too approving of, in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, but like any politicians, I think they'd be willing to forget if they benefited enough (and, by they, I mean both the Lords themselves and the city itself). Like they did in Sembia, the Shadovar certainly could manipulate things in Skullport and/or Undermountain to make themselves look like the heroes swooping in to save the day, to build up political goodwill between themselves and Waterdeep. Secretly cause a little agitation in Skullport, in regards to it being a former Netherese enclave, where the Shadovar claim they're the only ones who have the ability to stop the problem, because of their unparalleled expertise about ancient Netheril. Anything to get a little foothold of trust among the leaders of the city. Once that little seed is planted, it can be slowly cultivated until much bigger political exchanges are taking place between the various sides. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 20:19:02
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If they are to eventually rise the mile deep laying Skullport in its entirety, mythallar and old enclave inall, they would endanger the established blackworld trade, the bedrock stability of Waterdeep (perhaps even disrupting its magically enhanced stability), its groundwaterflow, and the tentative stability of the hive of scum living in Skullport. All resulting in major headaches for the Masked Lords of Waterdeep, certainly agitating them in preventing it from happening.
I'd have difficulty imagining the Shadovar being able to have answers for all these problems. Additionally, by leaving the place in its current locale the geopolitacal distance to its own empire would be too far, and maintaing a semblance of control would become a strain on their resources (which are mainly located above the Anauroch). Perhaps if the Shades relocate their resources to a more near place in relation to Waterdeep they'd be able to take a firm hold over Skullport.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 21:48:56
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| I think the better question remains why did they not go after a mostly-intact enclave that's close enough to the surface for people to dive down to it... |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2011 : 22:54:17
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
If a bunch of frog-demons managed to enter the heavily warded place that housed the mythallar and damaged it, surely, the Shadovar can do so much more
Well to be fair those weren't just some "frog-demons" but sladi empored by vosthym. Although we know almost nothing about vosthym, by the descriptions in the books he is a far more powerfull beeing than everyone else (except gods) we have known to this point.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
No way would Telamont dare war [in the open] with Waterdeep and her neighbors. The losses would be staggering. But that does not mean the only way to seize control of Skullport is to also fight the City of Splendors. Shade managed to take Sembia first by working behind the shadows... Spreading rumors, intrigues, and falsely swearing alliance.
Yes but Waterdeep is far more stable society than Sembia and it has a lot of mighty inhabitants who work continously to unreavel such plots. So it would be far more harder than in Sembia
know a good enough deal about vhostim to know he was very powerful. The problem is, when great users of the Art face other great users of the art, it sends a vibration that is felt by ever major power on Toril(This has happened in novels, such as when Shandril and Elminster were facing off against Manshoon, and across the world, Khelben and Malchor suddenly felt it and ran to their scrying crystal to see what was going on).
Vhostim postulated that he could have easily handled tapping scullports mantle himself. But that the sculls would have felt his presence immediately and the battle would have attracted unwanted attention, probably even the chosen of Mystra. Which was a large part of the reason he avoided the Mythals as a possible tapping ground. He did not want the elven high mages or Chosen to know of him because they could and would pose a threat. And his plan was not to take and hold scullport. But merely to get in and out quickly.
As to why the Shadovar have not gone after Scullport. I see it as pretty simple. It would attract immediate retribution from several different powerful factions. The shades are not numerous. Extremely powerful yes, but they lack the numbers. Taking and holding scullport would require a good deal of their most powerful beings.
Waterdeep is not going to stand there and let shade grab a toehold so close to home, and waterdeep has many ties with powerful beings. The Harpers, the Elves and several beings of great personal power.
Scullport itself hosts many different races from the underdark who try to maintain a foothold there. Illithids, Drow, Duergar and others.
Taking Sembia was done covertly, and by all appearances, Sembia welcomed their aid. In such a case, other nearby nations who tried to oppose shade would find themselves not only facing shade, but much of Sembia, who allied with them. Taking scullport would be much different. And in taking Sembia, they also need to maintain a watch against neighboring countries who are not exactly friendly to them. Cormyr in particular. Not to mention the dalelands and Myth Drannor. And Thay, which is not so far away, have proven to be another superpower working against them which would pose a threat.
Telamont said "Shade will prevail as it always prevails. By hiding in the darkness and striking from the shadows", and thus far, what they have been doing is exactly that. |
Edited by - Firestorm on 24 May 2011 22:54:58 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 00:17:50
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@Wooly: Which enclave are you referring to?
@Waterdeep vs. Netheril: It's kind of a lose-lose situation for both groups. If Netheril attacked, Waterdeep would fight back, and both sides would suffer heavy losses. Netheril might win this particular battle, but committing so much of its resources (which could potentially be lost) opens it up for any other of its thousands of enemies to strike a blow against it. Unless I'm completely mistaken, something like that happened in RotA--the Netherse were distracted and the Chosen of Mystra sneaked in and almost took out the whole city of Shade.
Brute force is not the answer for the shades. Slow, subtle, insidious conquest is the name of the game. To take a classic FR example, one should think more Black Network under Manshoon, less invincible Army of Bane under Scyllua Darkhope.
@Undermountain's role: I wonder if Undermountain itself isn't a bigger lure for the Shades than Skullport. If they were able to take over Skullport or at least establish a base there, they could make a concerted effort to penetrate Undermountain and get to some of Halaster's legendary treasures . . .
@Firestorm: Indeed, obviously taking over Skullport is not "hiding in the darkness and striking from the shadows." Gradually insinuating themselves into Waterdahvian society and commissioning adventurers to delve into Skullport to clear some space, lay some groundwork, etc . . . that's more like it.
Netheril would do far better to make itself an indispensable ally to someone, rather than take up residence nearby and make a sleeping giant nervous.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 00:25:38
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| And I'd like to add that trying to take Skullport and turn it into another floating enclave would in all likelyhood utterly decimate Waterdeep by having its very foundations ripped out from under it- something the Lord would NOT be too happy about, assuming anyone in the city survived. Skullport is better off where and HOW it is now, than as any sort of shade colony. For one thing, most of its inhabitants are Underdark natives! They would probably not like having their homes tossed up into the sky, I imagine. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 01:07:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Wooly: Which enclave are you referring to?
Nhalloth. It's reasonably intact, and lies off the coast of Aglarond. It's described in Sea of Fallen Stars, the same source that described how Sakkors rolled over several times and left a miles-long trail of rubble en route to its resting place beneath the waves. |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 01:44:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the better question remains why did they not go after a mostly-intact enclave that's close enough to the surface for people to dive down to it...
I'll take a stab at answering this question! The reason that Nhalloth was of zero interest to Netheril is that its mythal is destroyed, it treasures looted long ago. Although it does possess some interesting architecture.
Sea of Fallen Stars , pg.20. |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 02:00:08
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Sorry for the double post, but I was hoping someone could clarify something for me:
Sargauth was *never* a flying enclave, right? It was an underground research center, built near a dwarven mining operation, and was crushed by the Fall... right? |
Brace Cormaeril |
Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 25 May 2011 02:01:07 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 02:58:16
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Hi again, all.
Dennis, re. this: "As I noted, they can teleport it to Shadowfell; repair the mythallar from there [that is, provided it's still fixable]; and teleport the enclave back to the Prime, in Anauroch, where they could finally raise it."
Um, NO. Here's Ed on the subject:
Mythals cannot be translocated (teleported, dimension doored, all similar dimensional as opposed to physical-flight-path "movement" magic) intact. Mythals must have anchors, which ties them to a locale, and have integral spatial locators (clumsy real-world analogy: GPS coordinates).
Weak attempts to translocate mythals will fail. (Many will reflect all translocation magics cast at them, or within them but not at specific creatures or touched items, back at the caster.)
Strong attempts to translocate mythals violently destroy them (and everything in the vicinity), and such strong attempts have to be made from within the mythallar, by casters who ALREADY UNDERSTAND its structure (component spells and their linkages), or they merely fail. Otherwise, every mythal could be easily destroyed by hostile spellcasters casting teleports on it. And if mythals could be teleported intact, they would have been used as weapons many times in the past (which they have not been): simply surround your foe with a mythal that by its conditions weakens the foe and strengthens your own weapons against that foe.
Mantles (personal wards) and some stationary and more powerful wardings and shieldings CAN be teleported by those who know how, and can precisely control the right magics (and such individuals are rare indeed; many zulkirs of Thay tried and failed repeatedly, because it requires a particular gift for the Art or exhaustive and successful experimentation, not merely a logical progression of spell research and refinement).
Sorry, guys, but that's one of the limitations that has to be built into mythals, or they'll become campaign wreckers in a hurry. (Create a mythal that magnifies and intensifies lightning and fire magic, teleport it to surround an enemy city, apply your spells, sit back to watch the bonfire. Then do the same to the NEXT city.) Might be fun, but is not D&D (full buyin from the Creative Manager on this one). Game balance rears its elegant head one more time.
So there you have it. From Ed (creator of the Realms, and mythals, too!) himself. BTW, the "guys" he refers to in his last sentence are TSR designers and computer gaming company designers working with the Realms as a license. These notes come from handouts publicly distributed at a 1993 GenCon seminar, so I'm not spilling any beans here.
Now, one can dismiss this with the tried and true "What do these TSR staffers know about the rules/game balance/whatever, anyway" argument, which has always struck me as more rude hubris than convincing.
One can also try the "What does Ed Greenwood know about the Realms, anyway?" argument, which always falls flat. Ed is morally and contractually THE expert on the Realms.
One can try the "but that was so long and so many game editions ago" argument, but that's dodgy, given the design principles of the later rules editions.
Finally, one can do the "Oooh, but these are the Netherese of Shade, not some pikers! They will manage it!" reasoning, which I just don't buy. Shade was a MINOR city of Netheril, and its current rulers have experienced very mixed success in their endeavours in the "modern" Realms; they are by no means an unstoppable juggernaut. What Ed shared with we Knights about Netheril was sketchy, but Shade is not one of the three surviving cities that are truly mighty (two of those cities are so powerful that their presence has been kept largely hidden/unrecognized for what it is, thus far).
Now, Dennis, I'm not saying the Shadovar can't mend mythals. I'm just saying they can't "take them home to the workshop and fix/tinker with them at leisure." Can't be done. I checked with Ed before posting this, and he said in specific rare situations/conditions, pieces of mythals can be "sundered" from their parent and teleported, but both pieces and parent are damaged by doing so, and will continue to deteriorate unless magically mended quickly and capably.
love,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 25 May 2011 02:59:44 |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 04:11:51
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Please thank Ed for lending his voice to this conversation!
And thanks again to Dennis for starting such a compelling scroll! |
Brace Cormaeril |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 05:29:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nhalloth. It's reasonably intact, and lies off the coast of Aglarond. It's described in Sea of Fallen Stars, the same source that described how Sakkors rolled over several times and left a miles-long trail of rubble en route to its resting place beneath the waves.
-Nhalloth is really the sunken enclave that Paul Kemp should have used in the Erevis Cale/Twilight War trilogies. As much bemoaned by Mark, Sakkors was pretty much destroyed, whereas Nhalloth was left in a state that resembled the city that Paul used in his books.
@ THO: Given that Skullport used to be a Netherese enclave, and that the Skulls are tied to the "operation power source" of the city, it's likely a mythallar in there. City of Shade made the jump to a from the Material Plane to the Plane of Shadows at least once in either direction (possibly more, given that different sources have conflicting information), we know that mythallars can be transported interdimensionally, or, given some magical tinkering, they can be (though, given the abrupt nature of Shade's teleportation, given certain sources, there probably wasn't time to much around with the properties of Shade's). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 25 May 2011 18:12:31 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 05:40:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nhalloth. It's reasonably intact, and lies off the coast of Aglarond. It's described in Sea of Fallen Stars, the same source that described how Sakkors rolled over several times and left a miles-long trail of rubble en route to its resting place beneath the waves.
-Nhalloth is really the sunken enclave that Paul Kemp should have used in the Erevis Cale/Twilight War trilogies. As much bemoaned by Mark, Sakkors was pretty much destroyed, whereas Nhalloth was left in a state that resembled the city that Paul used in his books.
Indeed. When I first heard that Sakkors had been raised, I thought it was a mistake.
It's one of many reasons I never read the Twilight War books (other reasons were a dislike of the way Shade has been used, and a lack of interest in Erevis Cale). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 05:44:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
besides a nearby river has an enormous aboleth that could wipe the floor with the shades
They were able to weaken Evareska's mythal through the Shadowshell, so Skullport's would not be a problem.
They fought Malaugryms, phaerimm, and beholders. A bunch of aboleths wouldn't be much of a problem, either.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I don't think so. Skullport is not part of Waterdeep. Besides, putting it the way you do, it's like saying Waterdeep is sharing its district with several of Toril's evil denizens, who conduct commerce with Skullport. No matter how important it is to them, the Waterdhavians are better off letting it go to the Shadovar than sacrificing a tenth or a quarter of her army and emptying her treasury. Besides, the Shadovar can seize Skullport without risking a direct confrontation with Waterdeep. As I noted, they can teleport it to Shadowfell; repair the mythallar from there [that is, provided it's still fixable]; and teleport the enclave back to the Prime, in Anauroch, where they could finally raise it. Once it's floating, I doubt Waterdeep would be stupid to take it back. It's not even theirs in the first place. Not to mention they'd be in enemy territory.
-To the Waterdhavian elite, the Shadovar could represent two things: (A) a powerful source of trade, especially with their annexation of Sembia, and their ability to control the Anauroch (negating the influence the Zhentarim would have on trade in the North), and (B) a force that could bring stability to Skullport (and Undermountain, to a lesser degree), such that incidents like things rising up from down there to do bad things in Waterdeep would happen less frequently. As evidenced by how the Shadovar have treated Sembia, if they came into control of Skullport, they wouldn't suddenly kick everyone out and turn it into a bastion of shadowy evil. They're more pragmatic than that.
Good points, LK! Why indeed would they raise Skullport when they can annex it to the empire, let it remain in the Underdark to serve whatever purpose they deem necessary.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Undermountain's role: I wonder if Undermountain itself isn't a bigger lure for the Shades than Skullport. If they were able to take over Skullport or at least establish a base there, they could make a concerted effort to penetrate Undermountain and get to some of Halaster's legendary treasures . . .
Not bigger, I suppose, but perhaps nearly as big. Telamont is interested more in Netheril's lost treasure. Unless a powerful scrying reveals some such treasures are buried in Undermountain, he might not give it a damn.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I'd have difficulty imagining the Shadovar being able to have answers for all these problems. Additionally, by leaving the place in its current locale the geopolitacal distance to its own empire would be too far, and maintaing a semblance of control would become a strain on their resources (which are mainly located above the Anauroch). Perhaps if the Shades relocate their resources to a more near place in relation to Waterdeep they'd be able to take a firm hold over Skullport.
Difficult, yes. But not impossible. Hadrhune once intended to establish a base in one of Thay's regions, not only to impress the Most High but also to carve a name for himself. Many archwizards [basically Telamont's lackeys] would gladly volunteer to govern Skullport. Besides, with shadow-walking, distance hardly matters.
--------
THO,
Please send my thanks to Ed for that bit of lore...
Skullport's mythal is unike the elves'. It's powered by a huge crystal which functions like a mythallar. And since the mythallar is a Netherese artifact and Skullport's mythal is fueled by Netherese magic, the Shadovar are experts enough to ensure [via complex magic] that the enclave's transportation through teleportation would not severely damage the crystal.
However, I am far more inclined to agree with LK's postulation that Shade would rather annex Skullport in the same way they did Sembia [not like Sakkors]. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 05:47:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's one of many reasons I never read the Twilight War books (other reasons were a dislike of the way Shade has been used, and a lack of interest in Erevis Cale).
-Personally, I think you're shooting yourself in the foot, man, on that one. I never particularly liked the "Netheril Reborn!" aspect that Shade represented, nor all the shadowyness that was pumped in during the middle-to-late 3e days, nor Erevis Cale as a protagonist (He was a lot better in the [i]Twilight War/i] trilogy, though, believe you me, in terms of character personality and development), but the [i]Twilight War/i] trilogy made for some very good fantasy reading, and ranks up there, in my opinion, in Forgotten Realms series. One character in particular, without going into detail, Abelath Corrinthal, is maybe my favorite Forgotten Realms character of all time, everything surrounding him was that good.
@Dennis: I'd imagine there would be no real reason to raise it. If they control it, they're happy. Sakkors was "raised" because, well, what good is it beneath the waves of the sea? It's gotta come up anyway to be useful to begin with, so once it breaches the surface of the water, you might as well make it keep going up. Skullport, and everything down there, it's all firmyl in place. No reason to mess around with things, basically altering the topagraphy of the area. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 25 May 2011 05:50:46 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 05:57:25
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Abelar annoyed me more than Cale did. I was glad he died. If I were Lathander, I would have gladly given Abelar to Loviatar! But I digress... |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 25 May 2011 06:12:46 |
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Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
124 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 06:15:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
However, I am far more inclined to agree with LK's postulation that Shade would rather annex Skullport in the same way they did Sembia [not like Sakkors].
I think it is quite likely that some form of alliance could be achieved with the Skulls, and I mean, Hells, it'd be a Netherese love-fest. AND the place has been called Port Shadow forever!
(Like 'Lord Shadow, the Most High' really needed any more ego-stroking!)
So how 'bout you, Lord Karsus, ever consider lending a third or two of soul to Telemont's empire machine?
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Brace Cormaeril |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 07:02:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Abelar annoyed me more than Cale did. I was glad he died. If I were Lathander, I would have gladly given Abelar to Loviatar! But I digress...
-Ugh, I was trying not to spoil anything for Wooley, but, ah...Abelar had more character development than most characters written about in the setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril
So how 'bout you, Lord Karsus, ever consider lending a third or two of soul to Telemont's empire machine?
-I'm only 1/3 of the outfit. Karsus the Mad is another 1/3, and he's off doing his own thing right now, and it doesn't involve much D&D. We never found our other 1/3, though we think it may or may not be a Beholder Mage running around in the Underdark somewhere. Had plenty of corrupted clones, though, lemme tell you. But, I digress. It is the official policy of the shattered soul of Karsus to dislike and oppose the imperialistic Empire of Shade, being that they've given a bad name to Netherese everywhere. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 25 May 2011 07:06:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2011 : 10:46:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's one of many reasons I never read the Twilight War books (other reasons were a dislike of the way Shade has been used, and a lack of interest in Erevis Cale).
-Personally, I think you're shooting yourself in the foot, man, on that one. I never particularly liked the "Netheril Reborn!" aspect that Shade represented, nor all the shadowyness that was pumped in during the middle-to-late 3e days, nor Erevis Cale as a protagonist (He was a lot better in the [i]Twilight War/i] trilogy, though, believe you me, in terms of character personality and development), but the [i]Twilight War/i] trilogy made for some very good fantasy reading, and ranks up there, in my opinion, in Forgotten Realms series. One character in particular, without going into detail, Abelath Corrinthal, is maybe my favorite Forgotten Realms character of all time, everything surrounding him was that good.
I read the Sembia books and the Erevis Cale trilogy... The only character I actually liked was the fashion-conscious slaad. The rest of the characters simply failed to interest me at all.
And I didn't particularly care for those books, either. So that's why I've never touched the Twilight War. |
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Why did they not seize Skullport?
