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Jelennet
Learned Scribe
Russia
131 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 11:25:25
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Imagine that Salvatore wrote books about Liriel and Cunningham wrote books about Drizzt. What would we have then?
Do you think that writers are capable of writing impressive FR stories with the main character of the opposite gender? I'd be happy to hear the opinion of the professional FR writers on the subject.
Do you think that such books would have a good potential? Or not? What do you think of such books?
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Edited by - Jelennet on 09 Apr 2011 11:26:55
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 14:39:53
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| It's really for readers to judge whether a particular FR author effectively depicts characters of the opposite gender. |
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Kes_Alanadel
Learned Scribe
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 16:43:41
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I agree with Richard on this one. I'm not sure what you are after with all of these gender related questions, but here is my two coppers.
I have read books in which the author has done an exceptional job of depicting characters of the opposite gender and other that have not. On the other side of the coin, I have read books where same gender characters are poorly written by authors. I think it really boils down to how well an author depicts a character period.
*shrug* |
Ack! I seem to have too much blood in my coffee stream!
When did 'common sense' cease to be common? |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3741 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2011 : 23:44:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
It's really for readers to judge whether a particular FR author effectively depicts characters of the opposite gender.
Agreed.
I happen to like writing female characters, but then, I happen to like writing period, so there you go. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Jelennet
Learned Scribe
Russia
131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 00:55:02
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I can explain why I'm asking these questions. Just curiosity...
My brother who is an avid fantasy and science fiction reader once said to a girl who liked writing: Better write about a woman because you are a woman yourself and you understand them better!
I also know a woman who thought that men can't write romance novels (like "Gone with the wind") because they do not understand women.
I've met several people with such ideas... So I've decided to discuss it here.
I also read in an encyclopedia (should be trustworthy) about a serious and famous writer (Brecht, if I'm correct) that he had problems writing female characters and his female friends helped him to write them. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 01:03:58
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I find that female gamers generally can roleplay men and women equally well, but only very, very few male gamers can manage to portray women well.
I think that applies to writers as well. Male writers can usually get minor female characters right but not so well with a main female character, especially if they have to protray her inner life.
I'm not pointing to any individual writers here, just speaking broadly. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Jelennet
Learned Scribe
Russia
131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 01:21:49
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
I find that female gamers generally can roleplay men and women equally well, but only very, very few male gamers can manage to portray women well.
Hmm... Interesting... Do you have any ideas why? |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 06:00:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Jelennet
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
I find that female gamers generally can roleplay men and women equally well, but only very, very few male gamers can manage to portray women well.
Hmm... Interesting... Do you have any ideas why?
Women are mysteries wrapped in conundrums? I don't understand 'em myself so I can't say why. I just know it doesn't feel as believable.
And there are exceptions, though I think one often discovers later the male writer had a female cowriter. David Eddings, for example.
There are also female authors who can't seem to manage male writers but they are pretty rare exceptions. Marion Zimmer Bradley springs to mind.
But getting back to the Realms, Elaine I'm certain could write Drizzt extremely well. But RAS could never write Liriel or any other female character.
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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 15:35:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Jelennet
I can explain why I'm asking these questions. Just curiosity...
My brother who is an avid fantasy and science fiction reader once said to a girl who liked writing: Better write about a woman because you are a woman yourself and you understand them better!
I also know a woman who thought that men can't write romance novels (like "Gone with the wind") because they do not understand women.
I've met several people with such ideas... So I've decided to discuss it here.
I also read in an encyclopedia (should be trustworthy) about a serious and famous writer (Brecht, if I'm correct) that he had problems writing female characters and his female friends helped him to write them.
I think it has more to do with whether the writer sets out to write "a person" rather than "a love interest" or "a buttkicker" or whatnot. What I find gets writers into trouble more than the gender of the characters is trying to make those characters be representitives for sections of the potential audience. Unfortunately, when that happens the character becomes less a well written member of the cast and more a cliché.
I don't think the gender of the writer has anything to do with it so much as the skill of the writer in question.
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
I find that female gamers generally can roleplay men and women equally well, but only very, very few male gamers can manage to portray women well.
Well, there's a lot of cultural pressure for women to understand what men want and somewhat less cultural pressure for men to do the same for women. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 16:07:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
I find that female gamers generally can roleplay men and women equally well, but only very, very few male gamers can manage to portray women well.
Well, there's a lot of cultural pressure for women to understand what men want and somewhat less cultural pressure for men to do the same for women.
There's also the fact that many -- certainly not all, but many -- male gamers don't interact with women enough to really have any kind of understanding of the female mind.
I know it's something of a stereotype, but sadly, I've met enough gamers to know where that stereotype comes from.
Most of my former gaming friends are married, now, but I know that when we first started rolling dice, none of us had interacted with women all that much... I spent a few years working in restaurants, and a lot of that time was spent chatting and/or flirting with various waitresses and hosti -- that helped me get a much better grasp on the female mind. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 16:27:47
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Well it clearly depends on the writer . In role play I have been praised by other gender for how well I portrayed them.
Ed Greenwood is very well respected for portraying and playing both genders.
To say some can not do this well clearly is true. I have seen players that always play same gender and generally same type of character. I have encountered players that say that they can not roleplay a human *shrugs* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2011 : 17:26:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well it clearly depends on the writer . In role play I have been praised by other gender for how well I portrayed them.
Ed Greenwood is very well respected for portraying and playing both genders.
Roleplaying I'm sure he does, I've heard nothing but praise for Ed as a DM. But as a writer his female characters are a glaring weakness. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 23:30:44
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quote:
Originally posted by GMWestermeyer
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well it clearly depends on the writer . In role play I have been praised by other gender for how well I portrayed them.
Ed Greenwood is very well respected for portraying and playing both genders.
Roleplaying I'm sure he does, I've heard nothing but praise for Ed as a DM. But as a writer his female characters are a glaring weakness.
I have to disagree with that. Ed's female characters are probably the most well known and loved ladies in the Realms. Shandril or the Seven sisters ring a bell? |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2011 : 23:57:49
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| I am not sure where I stand regarding this, but well known and loved is not necessarily the same as authentic, is it? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2011 : 01:20:21
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I'm not sure if it's a coincidence or something else, but when I count them all, I find out that there are more female [than male] fantasy writers whose novels I wholeheartedly hate. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2011 : 12:43:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
I am not sure where I stand regarding this, but well known and loved is not necessarily the same as authentic, is it?
Not always but in Ed's case I think that with the sheer amount of popular female characters he has written about I'm sure that had they been badly portrayed/written, they would have died a swift death. Instead they have endured and blossomed into some of the most detailed and interesting people in the Realms. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2011 : 13:32:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
I am not sure where I stand regarding this, but well known and loved is not necessarily the same as authentic, is it?
Not always but in Ed's case I think that with the sheer amount of popular female characters he has written about I'm sure that had they been badly portrayed/written, they would have died a swift death. Instead they have endured and blossomed into some of the most detailed and interesting people in the Realms.
While I still don't know whether I want to take a stance in this issue, I am also not sure whether that argument is convincing: you have to take into regard who most of the people are that all these female characters are popular with. While I don't know the demographics, my strong guess is that the vast majority of readers belongs to a specific type of young males who might not be the first source of wisdom I would be seeking when asking for a balanced and seasoned evaluation whether the portrayal of women in a piece of fiction is authentic (note that I don't say 'good' - this is not my point).
My point is that popularity (and the number, for that matter) of the characters per se is not enough to argue for authenticity. Female fictional characters can be stereotypical and not authentic (while being interesting, portrayed in detail etc.), but still attract a huge crowd of fans from a certain demographic group (and citing a few examples from outside that group won't convince me: there are always counter-examples). |
Edited by - Thieran on 12 Apr 2011 23:17:21 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2011 : 21:42:27
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| I think Thieran's post implies an interesting question: If a character entertains readers yet lacks "authenticity," is there anything wrong with that? My answer is a qualified no, partly because the determination of authenticity is at least partly subjective. To some degree, each of us has a different understanding of human nature. |
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Thieran
Learned Scribe
Germany
293 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2011 : 23:18:31
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| That sounds reasonable! |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 23:53:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by Thieran
I am not sure where I stand regarding this, but well known and loved is not necessarily the same as authentic, is it?
Not always but in Ed's case I think that with the sheer amount of popular female characters he has written about I'm sure that had they been badly portrayed/written, they would have died a swift death. Instead they have endured and blossomed into some of the most detailed and interesting people in the Realms.
I disagree. Ed is an incredible setting designer and adventure writer. The NPCs he creates are generally extremely memorable.
Combined with his charisma, longevity in the business, and appearences at cons and the popularity of his female characters, despite the novels, makes a great deal of sense. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker
74 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2011 : 01:28:38
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Readers' opinions are just that: opinions. They differ widely.
For instance, GMWestermeyer, two of our senior editors (both female, and one a former strident '60s feminist) believe Ed Greenwood writes very believable female characters, and points writers and junior editors towards his work to provide examples.
I agree with both of them fully: that Ed writes strong females, and weak females, and females in between. Not to mention males ditto, and both genders of various races.
"Authenticity," when we're talking fantasy settings where magic works and fantastic beasts thrive, that none of us can really experience except through our imaginations (plus books or games or movies), still comes down to how convinced or entertained an individual consumer is. Witness the differing reactions (from enthralled to appalled) the Jackson LOTR trilogy evoked, depending on the audience member (they got this tiny detail wrong! vs. guy in the next seat has never read the books, and so hasn't the foggiest about any details)
One of our male v-ps was astonished at the editors' stance on Greenwwod female characters, thinking they'd hate them (all the flirting, prostitutes, lechery of male characters, et al). They set him straight: Ed respects all his characters, and portrays them all believably, and so the stories work.
Shandril is young, naive, and stubborn. Strong in the end, but not strong at the outset. Brave, yes, but foolish and often despairing.
Storm Silverhand is very different.
Both human women. Both characters in the Realms, where Ed is THE expert. You're free to argue specifics of how you like or dislike them, but you'll have a very hard time convincing me they're not "right" for or in the Realms, because the Realms is Ed's world, and what he says goes. Later TSR and WotC designers can insist otherwise, but they only get to play in the Realms because of that original Realms agreement, and it carves in stone Ed's primary claim as the creator and definer of the Realms. Moreover, I think some of Ed's female characters outside the Realms (like the dark elf female protagonist in the Nilfheim duology) are better portrayed than his Realms characters.
So it really comes down to your or my personal like or dislike of the characters as they're portrayed.
I like Ed's women. Most of them, I'd like to get to know and like a lot more. 
You may consider them "a glaring weakness." I disagree flatly.
And being as I'm brilliant and infallible, I've just GOT to be right, yes?  |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 01:39:35
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quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey
You may consider them "a glaring weakness." I disagree flatly.
And being as I'm brilliant and infallible, I've just GOT to be right, yes?
I'm not sure who you are but I'm guessing you work for WotC.
Obviously, lots of folks like Ed's books.
I hate saying bad things about Ed's writing. I've seldom met a nicer person and he is a brilliant setting designer. And I even included him in my top 20 most important fantasy writers list in my KODT column (for inventing the Forgotten Realms). Nor does it surprise me that "a former strident '60s feminist" likes his female characters.
But he writes them poorly, he just does. When he is describing a character, sketching an NPCs with thier backgrounds, ect he does wonderfully. But once he has to start describing actions,. thoughts, dynamic activity they fall apart. the Knights of Myth Drannor books are a good example, the NPC sketches mad me long for a novel about those characters for decades but theexecution left me going "What happened to Jhessail? Why would Islif do that?
Though, to be fair, the males aren't much better, and the Knights seem to be 'on screen' less than 50% of the time in the books named after them.
Anyway, just my opinion. If Ed hears of it, hopefully it will be helpful in his next novel. Or not. I'm not infallible. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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A Publishing Lackey
Seeker
74 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2011 : 04:14:48
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Nope.
I do not now, and have never, worked for either TSR or WotC.
I work for a major New York publishing house (and the female editors I've mentioned work there, too). No, I'm not going to identify it, or myself, because just as WotC seems to be taking forever to decide on a fan-site policy, my employer is taking even longer to decide on a "do our employees have any right at all to do anything online without our prior approval?" policy. Let's just say the building I work in houses far more lawyers than editorial workers of any capacity.
I agree with you about the Knights novels, but I see it as the wordcount for those books making it impossible for Ed to tell any sort of coherent tale at all, given what had been made canon about the characters plus the style of narrative his editors obviously wanted him to follow, for those books. So Ed decided on a start point (the formation of the Swords who became the Knights) and an end point (the adventuring band heading for Shadowdale) and tried to tell some sort of entertaining and coherent story linking the two.
He succeeded at the entertainment, and failed in the coherence, but did manage to do fairly well at what was obviously his secondary assignment: sketch in something of the childhood of Alusair and the court intrigue of the time, to show us more of Azoun (who'd just been killed off, and a lot of Realms fans loudly wanted to see more of, at the time) and of Vangerdahast.
Your crit is valid, but not along gender lines. ALL of the Knights (except possibly Florin, and probably him, too) got slighted in that trilogy.
And as for "screen time," that's a very valid point (in that the packaging of the books leads a reader to expect one thing, and they get a lot of another, instead) but it's a consistent characteristic (flaw? or feature? take your pick) of Ed's writing. Look how few of the pages in the Elminster books, after ELMINSTER IN HELL, actually have Elminster onstage. Ed loves to hang "a big slice of the Realms" (consisting of lots of secondary characters, with subplots to match) on his protagonist characters, and have the action swirl around them rather than being driven by them.
Such writing might drive a reader who prefers the Conan-centric straightahead linear adventure (or a publisher's marketing flack!) NUTS, but it's different than the usual served up in this genre, and I find that a fun, refreshing difference. Even the thirtieth time around, in very recognizable Ed-style. Which I suspect is part of what makes him so popular (surveys done by several publishers over the years have revealed it works outside the Realms, and with readers who've never encountered Ed before).
And as for your opinion being helpful to inform Ed's next novel: quite possibly, because Ed does pay attention to all crit, in a good way. Just remember that "next" for Ed is three or four Ed-novels down the road for you and me.
I spoke to Ed at a recent convention (Ad Astra, in Toronto), and he was then at work on the third Elminster book of his current six-book contract. The next one we'll see in print will be the second one, BURY ELMINSTER DEEP, which comes out in hardcover this August, and was finished some time ago (from Ed's POV). Then I believe he has a new Tor novel or two, that are very different from heroic fantasy, ere he tackles the fourth Elminster book.
Heh. Anyone who thinks Ed writes weak females might want to read his "Daggers In Her Garters" in the Jen Brozek-edited Dark Quest anthology BEAUTY HAS HER WAY. I believe, from comments made on a panel, that Ed has another strong female protagonist in his story in the forthcoming Robin Laws-edited Stone Skin Press (a new imprint from the UK gaming publisher Pelgrane) anthology THE NEW HERO (I think that's the current title for the project; it's changed at least once).
Now you or I or the next reader might not LIKE the way Ed portrays this female character or that one, or even all his females - - but we should all be very cautious about equating our dislikes and preferences with absolute judgments about "weak" or "strong" (or good/bad/whatever). I know it's a widespread habit on the internet, but it raises the old New York publishing joke: "This is utter c**p!"/"Yes. but it's utter c**p the boss likes!"/"Oh, well, then, it's brilliant c**p! we're lucky we snapped it up first!"/"Who are you to deem it c**p, anyway? Who made YOU God?"/"You did, when you went on break. I'm God until your break is up, three minutes from now. Then you can be God again."/"Good, because I can hardly wait to reject THAT c**p!"
A lame sequence, yes, but it has gained traction by repetition, applied to EVERYTHING from Danielle Steel to Stephen King to the current presidential memoirs to Tom Clancy to Oprah's latest pick. As a sardonic "you say tomAYto, I say toMAHto" comment on how tastes differ (which is one of the reasons there are so many surprise bestsellers, and crashing duds, in publishing, as publishers' predictions go wrong, time and again).
The wry thing here, GMWestermeyer, is that if I had to judge Ed only on his published Realms fiction, I'd largely (not wholly) have to agree with you. However, I've worked with Ed and read "unedited Ed." And just as Erik Mona raved about "unedited Ed," so do I. The man is a MUCH better writer when he's not trying to squeeze himself into the WotC mold. After all, he's a multiple Nebula nominee for his short fiction, and got a Datlow/Windling "Best of" Honorable Mention for one of the zombie stories he wrote for one of the "All Flesh" Lowder-edited anthologies. More than that, he's ghosted some bestsellers for much bigger names writing in other genres, that were VERY well received.
I think part of the problem is the work for hire prose-butchery that sometimes afflicts his turnovers after they leave his hands, and more of the problem is that he sometimes has nigh-impossible deadlines (three weeks to write this novel, a month to write that one). I can't even TYPE fast enough to meet some of the deadlines Ed tries to hit. Now, the uncharitable may snidely suggest he take on less work, but I suspect that they like to eat as much as he does, and that if given the chance to write a big Realms novel or sit back and let someone ELSE write it, with their characters, they'd rush in there and have a go rather than sitting on the sidelines. Yes?
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2011 : 00:40:16
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| A general point on this subject: detangling inborn from learned/cultural elements of non-physical sexual dimorphism is really hard -- a perennially popular way for people to make fools of themselves with generalizations about what men or women are like. |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2011 : 05:09:46
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I think if a writer has talent, then he/ she is perfectly capable of writing a good main character of the opposite sex. Some of my favorite male characters are written by women. Some of my favorite female characters are written by men. What I think it comes down to, and what people refer to as authentic, is knowing the characters well enough to write them without really thinking. You simply know what he/ she would do or say.
I know writers (some of whom are my friends) who never have to say which character is speaking or whatnot because the characters are so clear and so well-defined that you already know. To me, it doesn't matter who wrote it, so long as it is well written. |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness.
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 23:09:50
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quote:
Originally posted by A Publishing Lackey
And as for your opinion being helpful to inform Ed's next novel: quite possibly, because Ed does pay attention to all crit, in a good way. Just remember that "next" for Ed is three or four Ed-novels down the road for you and me.
I'm not hopeful. Ed & I had a discussion via email about his penchant for stripping his female PCs of clothes back when the Shadows of the Avatar trilogy came out. I don't think I made much of an impression on him. But he always remained polite and supportive. That's why I've read so many of his novels, even though I only enjoyed the first third of the original print of Spellfire. The only other author I've stuck with like that is Gary Gygax.
Ed is much better at short stories, I agree.
We had the writer/editro debate elsewhere, I can only judge a writer by what is published and a writer has to accept that if thier name is on the cover that is what they will get judged by. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 04:24:30
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| This is an interesting discussion. I'd like to think that as a writer myself, I could do equally well with either gender. Granted, being female, I probably have the easier time of it than if I were a man trying to write from a woman's perspective. (Sorry, guys, but Wooly was right, us ladies ARE enigmas- and we like to KEEP it that way, lol!) Would LotR have been different if Frodo had been a woman? Perhaps. When I write a character, unless he/she is a romantic interest of another character, I generally don't think much of gender at all- he or she is simply a character, and whether male or female is probably not an issue of major importance to the story. Some characters MUST be a certain gender to work properly, others- not so much. Bond would be pretty different if written as a woman, but I doubt that Elminster would be much different as a woman. (and he WAS one, at least for a short time!) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 05:05:24
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I admit, I'm not particularly good at writing female characters. But I'm learning...from friends and some research. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Gender of the writer and main character
