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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 20:53:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I apologize in advance for being such a downer, and it was really not my intention to turn this into a rape thread, but I think these are important issues that one should think about. 
What I'm saying is not that rape is inherently a sexist act (I hold that rape is not an act of sex but rather of domination/violence, which happens to have a sexual component), but rather that the commonality of sexual violence against women is a product of sexism. Sexism influences how people (generally speaking, men) see other people (generally speaking, women): they see them as inferior, and thus it is *far* easier for them to justify the most heinous of acts used against them.
Both medical and crimial studies bear this out in research.
quote:
In this way, sexist men rape women because they see them as less than themselves and feel the imperative to crush out their feeble independence, whether this is a decision made out of real hatred, a calculating act of domination (as in the evilbastard example), or just frustration (i.e. at women who refuse their advances). Systematic rape of female prisoners and political/ethnic enemies is a vicious means of oppression against women, chosen specifically because they are women.
Also, awfully, rape is so amazingly common in the RW, that we are inclined to think that every male villain is inherently a rapist, and rape becomes an indicator of an evil nature, rather than an act as awful as it is. I also believe that an inherently sexist culture enables men to more easily justify rape, rather than see it for the full consequences it entails.
Quite so, and this is why it is important to differentiate between the RW and the Realms.
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In a world where men see themselves as superior to women, the independence of a woman becomes an affront to their very character, and they are much more inclined to use dehumanizing methods against a lesser creature than they themselves, up to and including rape.
I believe that, following this logic, as a more gender-equal society, the Realms sees far less sexual violence than the RW. I know I generally avoid it in my writing, partly because it's just inappropriate, but mostly because it just holds very little purpose. I can think of much more creative tortures for the villain to utilize.
And honestly, in a world with magic, there are probably far more heinous ways that one might objectify another.
quote:
Originally posted by Laerrigan
Or are you simply saying it's equally likely or unlikely for either female or male prisoners, in FR? As in, Evilbastard is just as likely to seek biological (in addition to psychological) satisfaction in either? Such turns of perspective/expectation---and how they influence and are influenced by society---intrigue me.
I think that if a villain in a gender-equal society uses rape as his means of domination, then yes, he would be as likely to seek efficacy and biological/psychological satisfaction in doing it to prisoners of both sexes. As I said above, rape is not an act of sex but rather of violence and domination--whether Evilbastard is attracted to his victims or takes any sexual pleasure in the act is hugely secondary, and I believe in a non-sexist society like the Realms, it would be far from his mind.
Cheers
[/quote]
I think it's important to separate attraction into its own category. There is a need to determine the reason for the attraction - it could be domination, it could be retribution, it could be spite. This has nothing to do with sexism but rather motive, and probably a factor of environment, too. I maintain that crime, as a whole, is motivated by different factors in a world with magic as it allows some people to very easily take things from others. Powerful wizards and priests can call down fire from above on a spurned lover with just as much satisfaction (or perhaps more) than sexual dominance. This is why I find it prudent to check ourselves on how we project our own reality into our view on what happens in the Realms. If I were a maniacally drunk-with-power powerful wizard, and very evil, and an advance I made was refused, I could use magic to force someone to love me (Charm) or I could use something like "Hold Person" to keep them paralyzed while I inflicted terrors upon ones that said individual loved...just look at what Fzoul did in Crucible to Malik and Ruha. Sexual dominance never entered the scene, and it never seemed necessary. What is noteworthy is that Malik expressed his (Troy's verson of) Arabian culture and women hiding behind veils in Calimshan.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 00:09:08
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Allystra, did you know that in Celtic society/culture, men and wimen had completely equal status. Women even fought alongside men !
But what if the Drow male didn'twant toconvert to anevil deity? He wants to be a cleri c of Eilistraee, but sees that as impossible. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 00:18:20
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
…But what if the Drow male didn't want to convert to an evil deity? He wants to be a cleric of Eilistraee, but sees that as impossible.
Then he'd be self-limiting himself. It's very clear that a male drow can worship or convert to Eilistraee. If he chooses not to accept her, that's his decision. It's not as if the gods are unknown to the mortals of the Realms, especially the major powers of the Pantheon.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 00:35:19
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| I still don't see the changedance as necessary. I'm wanting to make a homosexual male drow cleric of Eilistraee who is a refugee of of Menzoberranzan. His older sister killed his lovwper and he'd been beaten mercilessly by females, so he's sort of grown a fear of them, though one time he met a priestess of Eilistraee and wanted to become a cleric of her. I don't know if the priestess should discourage him from it because there are things only a female may participate in, or ifshe should welcomehim and escapeout of Menzo. The female dominance would frighten him a good bitthough. I really want tostick to Realms lore (but, IDK if it s TRUE lore but, I don't have Dark Elves like Lisa Smedman described the Ssri'Tel'Quessir) |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 00:37:33
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| Oh, and the male Faerie thais like a Nymph is called a Gancanagh. They are extremely beautiful and are addictive to mortals. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 01:38:37
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Allystra, did you know that in Celtic society/culture, men and wimen had completely equal status. Women even fought alongside men !
Erm, I don't know what you've been reading, but women were not "completely equal" in status. Nor is it even true that men were considered equal with each other.
Women in old Celtic society basically had two choices: get married and start to birthing babies, or join the druids. Now, as a druid, she would be equal with other druids (although there was a hierarchy there, with status toward Elders). But she still would be a woman under the laws of the time, and not have equal status in society to men.
She had two choices for marriage: elope, or have her kin (usually her father or eldest male relative) agree to various payments like a dowry when she lost her virginity in marriage. Supposing she wanted a divorce because her husband was cheating on her, she'd have to have it proven that he did so three times. And her husband might only be fined.
There were laws for how many times a Celtic woman could be beaten, and for what (giving something away without permission was one). =WHACK!=
Common Celtic women could not inherit land, although they could own certain other possessions.
Things were better for those of noble birth, of course. But not much. Laws differed depending on the region, also.
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But what if the Drow male didn'twant toconvert to anevil deity? He wants to be a cleri c of Eilistraee, but sees that as impossible.
Why impossible? Just because of the changedance issue?
For that matter, is it necessary that he is a priest? He could also be a regular lay worshipper.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 30 Mar 2011 01:39:54 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 01:52:56
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Um, I don't know what YOU'VE been reading. I read and learned about the Celts from every official source and they all agree that they were equal. Do I need to bring up the warrior Queen Boudica? The Greeks even noted that they had the same rights as men.
He doesn't want to be a regular worshiper, he wants to feel a deep connection to a deity. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 01:53:53
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| *Every official source I could get my hands on |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 01:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEyY6LEUWUw&feature=artistob&playnext=1&list=TLJK3qU5Pp3Yg
So long as Christopher Walken lives, dance will be at the very least, an equally masculine pursuit.
So totally true! Walken is the MAN!
Here are some other examples of manly dance goodness:
Evolution of Dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMH0bHeiRNg
One in a Million
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tpl9LtkRRw
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 02:14:32
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Um, I don't know what YOU'VE been reading. I read and learned about the Celts from every official source and they all agree that they were equal. Do I need to bring up the warrior Queen Boudica? The Greeks even noted that they had the same rights as men.
Well, if you're relying on Tacitus or other Roman/Greek sources, you should know that those texts are somewhat limited. Tacitus is about as accurate for the Celts as he was for the Germanics, which is pretty limited. Boudicca, as with many noblewomen of the Celts, is not the norm for their society by any means.
quote:
He doesn't want to be a regular worshiper, he wants to feel a deep connection to a deity.
What time period? Something pre-1385, I'm guessing?
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
Edited by - Eltheron on 30 Mar 2011 02:24:59 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 02:27:37
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Boudica was quite normal. Chauvinism didn'texist in every culture of the wrld. And no, he wasn't the inly source. Many other peoes noted women being free in Celtic society as well. Nativd Americans are another great example.
Yes, it's set in 3.5 Realms.p |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36784 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 02:32:16
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| Alright, do we really need to argue about what may or may not have been the societal norms a thousand years ago in the real world? This is not the forum for those discussions. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 02:35:16
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quote:
Originally posted by tradwitch1313
Boudica was quite normal. Chauvinism didn'texist in every culture of the wrld. And no, he wasn't the inly source. Many other peoes noted women being free in Celtic society as well. Nativd Americans are another great example.
Yes, it's set in 3.5 Realms.p
Your source says Native American women were "equal" also? Okay, I'm out.
Best of luck on your character.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 02:48:28
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| Wooly, I'm going to go with you into taking back this scroll to topic before I explode from other peoples ignorance. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 03:11:06
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| There's no need for commentary like that either, trad. Each and every scribe is entitled to their own personal beliefs. It is not for either you or anyone to say who is ignorant and who isn't. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 30 Mar 2011 03:12:00 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 03:20:57
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As a matter of fact, TW, I did indeed know that- one of my first studies of ancient Celtic culture was from the Gaelic Wars scribed by Caesar (as he was busy marching through their lands and claiming everything in sight). That said, I'm not entirely sure what that has to do with sexist cultures in the Realms, beyond an example of a RW non-sexist culture to compare to.
I'll go one better on Azuth and say that he'd be limiting himself by his own perception of the faith, and that the priestess would indeed welcome him with open arms into the faith, though she'd probably inform him of the restrictions as well, in order for that male to be fully aware of what he'd be getting into. It's not really any different than say, Catholic restrictions of only male clergy and prohibitions against priests being married. (as an example, and nothing more- this is the best analog I can think of.) That said, however, she does not actually prohibit male priests, or discourage them, but there are some things they would not understand about the faith due to gender issues. This is not to say that they can't still be full and active members of the faith. In fact, I see no reason why a male could not, they can still join in most of the songs, dances, rituals, and hunts, so what is the problem if they are barred from a very few "private" rites because they don't have the right parts? Would the female priests of Vaerhaun complain about being unable to join certain male-only ceremonies of that faith? Probably not, unless they simply feel they are being kept out of certain "secrets" of the faith for purposes of dominance. And as we've seen, although Eilistraee's faith is female-oriented, that is not the case. She does not espouse dominance of one gender over the other, nor does she turn away followers based on gender or race. (There was at least one halfling priestess in the LP books!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 04:31:06
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| Erik & Azuth---very insightful stuff. Certainly relevant to the OP topic of sexism in the Realms, but I'll go post at the blog if I end up wanting to delve any more into that particular aspect, as requested (I certainly want to read there, in any case, now). |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 04:36:05
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First, I'd like to comment that this thread was begun on a question about the Realms, not specifically about Eilistraee. Second, I think it's important to note that Ed has placed many powerful women in his books, so I think it's fair to say that women in the Realms are not considered weak or inferior. Alea Da Hast and Amedahast are great examples, as are Fifaeril and Alusiar, not to mention the Seven Sisters. Conversely, Ed shows that some women take time to grow into their roles, one great example is Tanalsta, another is Elmara/Elminster.
In the Pantheon, Ed has created a very balanced set of deities, and while I'm not going to do the math, I'm pretty sure that the greater powers are close to a 50/50 distribution of how the powers express themselves with respect to gender. Since the gods are really genderless, I'm just transposing Ed's choice of pronouns for the powers to do my math and base the rest on Ed's various comments posted here.
With all that being said, males have never suffered for lack of power in Ed's Realms, either. The Knights of Myth Drannor are a great example (although somewhat balanced in gender), Vangerdahast, Elminster, Azoun IV and really most of the Obarskyr line, Iliphar, the list is really lengthy.
In total, I think it's a fair statement that in the Realms, on Toril, in Faerûn, as a whole, and with no more conditional clauses, that men and women are equal. Can you write a character who doesn't fit the norm? Of course, because a norm isn't a mandate or a law. As a DM, you can allow any character to worship any deity regardless of "race" or alignment. If you're a player in someone else's game, then it's up to the DM of that game to approve your character. The scribes of Candlekeep cannot "approve" or "veto" anyone's choice of character unless one is playing in another's games.
TW, I'm not entirely certain what you're seeking. You posted a valid question, and I believe we've really tried to answer it. Even one of the Realms authors waded into a topic, which isn't incredibly common. I try very hard not to make someone feel like I'm attacking him or her personally, but you're proposing a specific scenario in which you want to play a character in a game and asking us to mold the Realms to fit that decision. When we call upon example after example stating that you can indeed play that character, you're challenging us on a point with which you take notice with respect to a ritual. Again, unless you're playing the character in one of our games, our opinion really doesn't matter. And if you want to know whether a character could be played in Ed's Realms, you'd need to post that question to Ed specifically. I personally see nothing wrong with the character you're proposing, and unless your gaming group is incredibly prudish or focused on sexual things, I guess I can't see why they'd care, either.
As a dungeon master, I am everything that the player characters are not, so I do ask them to create a background story for their characters with at least minimal depth such as region/city of origin, age, and whether or not the character has any living or dead relatives. I make them choose a patron deity (or actively choose not to select one) because in the Realms, if you don't pick a deity, you're rotting in Kelemvor's Wall. Beyond that, it's up to the character to play out his or her creation, and I know that at least where my players are concerned, they want to know how well a priest or priestess is at healing during combat and how well he or she can call upon divine powers. If your player's past is a part of how you play your character, then others in your group will understand that and react according to how they choose to play their characters. That is the entire purpose of D&D, and why Ed Greenwood created the Forgotten Realms.
In summary, I do not agree that there is sexism in the Realms as a whole. I do not believe that sufficient evidence has been presented that there is, and based upon my readings of the responses, I believe that a poll of people would say "no" to the question of sexism (as a whole) as well. Are there places you can find sexism? Absolutely. If there are other points you wish to address that I've overlooked, I'm happy to discuss them. But I agree with Wooly and the Sage: this is not the place for personal attacks, and it really has nothing to do with real life. My apologies to everyone for possibly ranting, but we've moved beyond debating a point in the Realms—which is something I enjoy—to an attack on some very intelligent people over history that none of us were alive to physically, personally observe and live. My reading of history aligns with Alystra and Eltheron's, but this isn't a forum in which I'm going to debate that.
I now return to encouraging mage craft for students of either gender. The Church of Azuth is an equal-opportunity faith of worship.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
Edited by - Azuth on 30 Mar 2011 04:39:51 |
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Laerrigan
Learned Scribe
USA
195 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 05:03:59
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Thank you, Azuth---you may yet win someone away from Oghma. The things you just expressed have been niggling at me in following this scroll lately, but I wouldn't have been able to organize and deliver them nearly as well. I keep stomping down on my inner LN elfy-cop and thinking "Shut up, none of my business, I'll only go overboard..."  I wouldn't call your post a rant at all, just a clear statement and explanation maintaining personal respect/decency.
For the most part, this has been quite an interesting scroll to follow thus far. I do hope it doesn't degenerate too much any time soon and end up as yet another one locked. |
"Your 'reality,' sir, is lies and balderdash, and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever." (Baron Munchausen)
"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was not made for this world." (C.S. Lewis, "Surprised by Joy") |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 06:28:06
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| *secretly pick-pockets Sage's scroll keys....* Nope, nothing un-Realmsian going on here, folks..... Me, I'm not sexist at all, I think every woman should have a pool-boy to serve her pina-coladas, cover her in oil, and fan her while she reads FR books in Rio.... LOL!!!! Just kidding. That's just my own personal "fantasy" setting. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Lily M Green
Learned Scribe
Australia
115 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 08:17:16
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I'd like to add something here, and in doing so I have no desire to devalue the eloquent contributions already made by my fellow scribes, whose knowledge of the Realms is far greater than mine, and I hope it's not seen as such...
Each of you will have a different tale to tell about how you came to The Realms but for many, myself included, that (proper) introduction will have come by way of a CRPG. Some will never have gome any further than that, but others, like me, will have enjoyed the setting and wanted to know more about the world they've enjoyed adventuring in, but the one abiding sentiment I have taken away from that first introduction is pretty much the first thing you come across when you create your very first PC...
PARAPHRASED:
quote:
Males in The Realms can excel in any area they choose be it wizardary, thievery or the arts of war.
Females in The Realms are every inch the equal of their male counterparts and can excel in any profession they choose.
My reason for highlighting this? I believe it very succinctly sums up the general ethos of the world we've chosen to explore and it's only RW preconceptions that stop it from being whatever you want it to be.
I hope that makes sense?
*Scarpers* |
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy, and taste good with ketchup.
A Dark Alliance - Beyond Baldur's Gate |
Edited by - Lily M Green on 30 Mar 2011 08:45:19 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 10:49:58
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| I have that every human culture in the Realms is sexist in their own way, seems natural and more interesting. Traditional D&D take is not believable. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 11:40:24
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True enough. Can't have chivalry or amazons in a world with global full gender equality ... plus I can't quite imagine the young men from a boring seaside village being especially fearful of longboats full of viking women intent on rape and pillage. Many of our assigned/traditional gender roles are arbitrary, even in fantasy settings, but taking them all away actually diminishes the possibilities.
A good question is what sort of sexism is seen by other major races. Elves are apparently completely indifferent towards gender, as are dwarves (even though they're more inclined to expound upon the most remarkable qualities possessed by their other gender). One hardly ever hears about orc, goblin, or monstrous women (outside of female-dominated creature types like banshees and medusae), but I'd think many of them would treat their females as base chattel. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 16:10:02
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@Quale and @Arik: I suppose it depends what we mean when we say "sexist." What do YOU guys mean?
I think you can have varied gender roles and suitable tension between men and women without one gender thinking the other is fundamentally inferior to the other. The blunt sexism inherent in Lolth-domninated drow culture (as well as the drow subcultures that react against it, particularly Vhaeraun-dominated subculture) strikes me as something of an aberration in an otherwise relatively gender-balanced culture.
Note that I didn't say FR is completely gender equal. That seems unlikely, simply because human (or demi/non-human) nature is driven by impulses that don't take high-level ethical reasoning into account. What I *am* claiming is that FR culture tends to be *more* sexually equal than the RW (which is really our best source of comparison), which I think equates to considerably less sexism than our deeply sexist RW culture.
FR is also considerably less inequal/sexist than many other fantasy settings, particularly George Martin's Westeros setting, for instance. The only setting I'm thinking of at the moment that seems *more* sex-balanced/sex-positive is Terre d'Ange from Jacqueline Carey's books, and that's only one nation amongst a much more sexist world. (That series is also distinctly about sex, sexual politics, and sex-positive vs. sex-negative.)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7981 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 16:51:26
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I suspect what I mean by "sexist" is largely similar to your definition, ESdB. A perception or assumption of inequality, of preference and exclusion based only upon gender. A little sexism is required for entertaining fantasy: although our (idealized) modern cosmopolitan society serves well as a baseline we simply need to allow (some) sexism to exist in FR if we want our amazons and chivalry to have any special value.
I agree, some amount of sexism is programmed into our biology; in short, it's "natural" instinctive behaviour and must actually be deliberately un-learned (by each member of society) before it will disappear. The only way to absolutely remove all possible stigma of sexism from D&D would be to completely remove all reference to gender ... to make everybody and everything become completely gender neutral/undisclosed without any exception.
lmao, I love most of GRRMartin's stuff (invented Githyanki after all), though I'm inclined to think that he (along with Heinlein, and dare I say, Great Greenwood) exhibits a heavy dose of "dirty old man" in his later writings whenever given a chance. (FWIW, I totally plan to be a dirty old man myself. Maybe even a creepy one if I feel like it. I figure I'll have earned the right if I manage to survive that long.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Mar 2011 17:02:44 |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 18:09:10
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I have to disagree with you slightly, Arik. I think you can have Amazons and chivalry without sexism. There's no reason that a bunch of women can't decide to go form a woman-dominated society. These women would form their own society that is sexist, but that doesn't make the Realms a sexist place. And I've never understood why chivalry requires sexism. A man could lay his coat across mud for a woman to be nice, not because he thinks she is superior or inferior. I open doors for both men and women as a courtesy, and I don't believe it's an act of chivalry.
We need to discern the difference between sexism and sexual dimorphism. Even though males are inherently bigger and stronger than females, that does not necessarily lead to sexism.
On the flip side, I have said (and agree) that there are some areas in the Realms where sexism is present; Calimshan is the first place that comes to mind. You can have your Amazon warriors without the need for chivalry, I believe. Sexism as necessary to advance a story, but not traditional throughout the Realms.
That's my take, for what it's worth.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I suspect what I mean by "sexist" is largely similar to your definition, ESdB. A perception or assumption of inequality, of preference and exclusion based only upon gender. A little sexism is required for entertaining fantasy: although our (idealized) modern cosmopolitan society serves well as a baseline we simply need to allow (some) sexism to exist in FR if we want our amazons and chivalry to have any special value.
I agree, some amount of sexism is programmed into our biology; in short, it's "natural" instinctive behaviour and must actually be deliberately un-learned (by each member of society) before it will disappear. The only way to absolutely remove all possible stigma of sexism from D&D would be to completely remove all reference to gender ... to make everybody and everything become completely gender neutral/undisclosed without any exception.
lmao, I love most of GRRMartin's stuff (invented Githyanki after all), though I'm inclined to think that he (along with Heinlein, and dare I say, Great Greenwood) exhibits a heavy dose of "dirty old man" in his later writings whenever given a chance. (FWIW, I totally plan to be a dirty old man myself. Maybe even a creepy one if I feel like it. I figure I'll have earned the right if I manage to survive that long.)
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2011 : 22:17:52
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| I'm not only trying to mold a character's story, but to get answers as well. Sometimes my topics mght be a larger scheme. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2011 : 04:47:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think you can have varied gender roles and suitable tension between men and women without one gender thinking the other is fundamentally inferior to the other.
(I'm not replying to anybody specifically in the following post. I just noticed the quoted comment, and thought I'd give my perspective regarding the variance of gender roles.)
There are naturally going to be certain gender roles for which men are more suited, just like there are roles to which women are more suited. Pretty much any society should eventually develop this sort of divide. That isn't necessarily sexism in any form, though. It's simply a gender role developed through biology.
http://www.topendsports.com/testing/forces-army.htm
http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/recruitmentCentre/supportAndDownloads/FAQs/WomenInDefence/#Domenandwomenhavetodothesamefitnesstests
http://www.la.ngb.army.mil/415th1/oldsite415/apft.htm
(I've used military sources largely because they came to mind first.)
The top link lists several physical fitness requirements for military service in various countries. Note the difference between male and female - it isn't necessarily large (some don't have it at all), but it is there. The bottom two links merely supplement the first, noting that there are different physical fitness requirements between genders (and age). I can corroborate it as well from my own experiences in sporting events, particularly those with a heightened focus on strenuous physical activity.
Anyway, men do tend to be built bigger and stronger on average (I think the quoted difference can reach as high as 40-50% depending on what source you're using). Exceptions exist on both sides of the divide, of course. However, this doesn't make men equal to women, it doesn't make women equal to men, it doesn't make women superior to men, and it doesn't make men superior to women. It just means that men are, on average, biologically more suited to some tasks, while women are biologically more suited to other tasks. In other words, it makes them different.
So to draw it back to the quoted post, there will naturally be differing gender roles between men and women, and the biology of the difference usually extends itself into society as a civilisation progresses. The implication of one side being inferior as a result of these differing roles, however, is generally a social or cultural invention, just like equality between the sexes is. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2011 : 00:32:52
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Well said, Eldacar.
It's debatable how much biological divide exists between male and female humans (let alone males and females of any other race) in the Realms specifically, or fantasy in general. I think each world is entitled to be different from our own world, but it takes away from the verisimilitude of a work if the genders are equally capable biologically with all different tasks.
What do you guys think?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Sexism in the Realms?
