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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 22:47:56
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Hi...
Ingame im starting s semester as a teacher at Lady Alustriels acadamy in silverymoon, teaching mage battle tactisks. Sort of like Defence against the dark arts...
Im trying to write down some of the spells and tactics one would need or should use in a faght against a superior foe... Here im talking about mage vs. mage...
If any of you have a great tactic or have used spells a surtain way to win a fight... or done something which was not just buffing up and blasting I would very much like to hear them!
Thanks
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 22:56:22
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Against a superior foe. Run or hope you make your saves and he fails all of his.
In some ways it depends on magic level difference (how much student has compared to foe). Going invisible can work to get off a surprise attack. However it really depends on the battle, tactics for one will not work or at least work as well against a different foe. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 23:05:01
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| Aye...what level are your students? We need a starting point, general tactics don't work in a magic system where level determines what spells you are allowed to use. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 23:07:25
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| Well they are level 11 when they start the class... And they are supposed to end as a lvl 21! So its bacisly tactics that involve all these level! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 23:09:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well they are level 11 when they start the class... And they are supposed to end as a lvl 21! So its bacisly tactics that involve all these level!
If they are level 11...I don't see them running into many wizards above their level; though I'm sure it is possible in the Realms; BUT...
"Graduating" at level 21 eh?
I honestly have no idea how to help you here...none. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 23:15:30
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What im looking for is ways to use spells... Perhaps like landing a wall of stone on your enemy or something like that... dont think about the level. Just altenative ways of using spells... Or doing something unexpected in the heat of battle!
Thats basicly what im looking for... I know its dificult, that also im part why I asked here, because I, having trouble myself! |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 23:34:58
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Patronus!
*ducks*
*coughs*
I good tactic against a superior mage, eh...
Against a grounded one (in this order): Grease - Burning Sphere - Blindness - Scorching Ray(s).
An aerial one: Blindness OR Glitterdust - Scorching Ray(s)
Always a good tactic is trying to screw their mental stats, opposing mages would lose their most potent tactics: Spectral Hand - Touch of Idiocy - Feeblemind
These (exept for the last spell) are a few lower level tactics I think a starting duelling mage would try to master.
In higher level spell battles I always found See Invisibility to be a must have buff in spell battles I fought online with NWN. Getting dispelled meant trying to get up a see invisibility as soon as possible, because if you don't have a target you are basicly lost and are to be pounded by a Bigby's Hand - quickened Ice Storm - empowered Ice Storm - empowered Chain Lightning combo. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 01:37:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
What im looking for is ways to use spells... Perhaps like landing a wall of stone on your enemy or something like that... dont think about the level. Just altenative ways of using spells... Or doing something unexpected in the heat of battle!
Thats basicly what im looking for... I know its dificult, that also im part why I asked here, because I, having trouble myself!
So name off some spells, and then we can come up with alternate uses for them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 03:17:25
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| Indeed, tell us what spell list you using. Which edition, which options. There can be ways to be inventive with magic, however need to know what magic is possible. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 05:31:04
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Many "magic duel" rules variants and systems exist, just as many rules systems exist for sword and jousting duels. The first I know of (outside of Dungeon & Dragon magazines) would be in the 2E Player's Option: Spells & Magic.
Agreed, much depends greatly on the (perceived) capabilities of the opponent. It also depends on how prepared ye are for the duel: is it some in-yer-face mage or is there time to prepare and layer on the buffs? Are there rules of engagement which prohibit the use of some magics? Is the object of the duel to be the last mage standing, to crater the opponent, draw first blood, or to prevail with a masterful demonstration of spellcraft superiority?
So, you wanna win a magical duel, eh? Welcome to Ayrik's Academy o' Ungloriously Vicious Cheap Bastard Wizards! (100gp admission fee, please)
(Limited edition "Ayrik Underhand" Wizard NPC with Drill-Sergeant PrC available for only 500gp while supplies last!)
Just off the top of my head: (bit lengthy, sorry)
My strategy of choice is to start with some kind of conjuring or illusion or whatever; any magic which brings forth reinforcements/firepower which I can immediately instruct to close in and physically attack my opponent. If there's time to prepare beforehand then I'll make some extra minions (ye can never have too many disposable minions) and magically buff them up as a group with spells like enlarge, invisibility, haste, stoneskin, etc. Some undead (or somebody wearing a darkmantle or lich aura) can be damned useful. Even a decent illusory golem or beholder can force a mage into a frantic defensive posture and waste some of his spells. Once my opponent is busily defending himself I'll often blast off a dispel magic or two to batter magical defenses and (at least temporarily) neutralize spells, potions, and magical items. A mage with no magic is a victim.
Spells such as globe of invulnerability, anti-magic shell, and Serten's spell immunity can also be quite effective, but ye'll never win a fight by putting all yer best efforts into defense. Use 'em if ye have time to prepare, otherwise focus yer spellcasting on affecting the target. Be aggressive, keep striking fast and furious, even if only to inflict scratch damage ... because yer opponent cannot effectively cast spells when harried, barraged, and disadvantaged. Let yer opponent be the one who's reacting. Ye can even use cheap dirty tricks like darkness and fog cloud (or cloudkill, which looks the same as fog cloud) if ye know it effects ye both but ye have some advantage (like infravision, sustained breath, or wrestling skills) which yer opponent doesn't. A mage who can't see is a victim.
Shatter is useful against opponents who depend on potions and glass/crystal trinkets. Annoys elves when their pretty figurines and glassteel swords break apart, too.
The lowly shield spell is oft overlooked; it completely absorbs magic missile attacks of all types.
The equally lowly armor spell is also neglected; think of it as a temporary weightless set of scale mail or Bracers of Defense AC6 which has more hitpoints than ye do.
Heat metal is a great way to take care of problematic metal weapons and armour.
Silence is not as crippling as ye'd think if yer opponent is smart enough to have at least a few useful spells which can be cast without any sound. It can also be largely negated by a vocalize spell or various skills and feats. Silence also inhibits ye from using sonic-based spells, it's really not very useful unless ye need to move and kill with stealth or ye're dueling a noisy bard or a mage who's heavily dependant on spoken command words. Save it for hunting trips.
Web is not very useful against mages ... if ye're gonna immobilize them ye must ensure they are almost completely paralyzed, otherwise they'll still be casting spells at ye. (A mage who can't move is a victim.) Conversely, free action ain't so useful for a mage who's just gonna be spellcasting, even when he's underwater.
(Beltyn's) burning blood can do a fair amount of damage while neutralizing regeneration. Various other magics exist which obstruct healing and regeneration, but they generally aren't valuable against low-hitpoint mages; ye'd be better off using a spell which can end the fight more quickly.
Spectral touch and (Alcimer's) flying fist allow touch based spells to be cast at range, and can tip the balance greatly when combined with spells such as vampiric touch, doubly so when combined with ironguard (allowing ye to bypass metal defenses). This assumes ye don't suck at landing blows in combat. Though there are spells which can grant bonuses to strike targets.
If yer opponent is physically inferior (and/or magically superior) then cast a couple of melee-spells (strength, fist of stone, shocking grasp, haste, stoneskin, Tenser's transformation, etc) and enthusiastically rush forward, give him a Glasgow kiss, go for the throat, kick him in the ankles, knee him in the Grumbars, go for the takedown. As above, this works very well with vampiric touch and ironguard. A mage who can't stand is a victim.
I've also used a nifty spell I picked up in Mulhorand, Sphinx's strangulation, to win a few duels. Suffocation, constriction magics, poison gas, and cloudkill work just as well. A mage who can't breath is a victim.
Power words are quite effective. Symbols can be set upon shields or sewn into the back of a robe. I'm particularly fond of insanity, pain, stun, and (the slightly unusual) forget spell effects. A mage who can't think is a victim.
One can cast item upon a large freshly stoked roaring campfire to later hurl at an opponent. Especially useful if ye (or yer unseen servant) first hurl yer oil-filled (and firetrapped) lanterns and flasks as well. Bring yer shire marshmellows ... a burning mage is a victim.
Illusions and enchantments are ultimately only as effective as the DM allows, but they can be utterly devastating in the hands of a creative mage when they're not nerfed. Even a minor cosmetic spell like sense shifting can keep your opponent uncertain (and worried) about which spells you use; invisibility, blur, and similar stuff can give ye a melee edge (though usually only a one-shot and not worth the casting once the duel has begun). Mirror image is an excellent spell, but it's wasted against a mage capable of blasting out area-effect damage.
Spells which allow saves to completely negate are often undependable in such conflicts, look ye to yer own saving throws to see why ... yet blasting out raw damage dice is a bit amateur (and zorches the loot) and can be easily countered by a skilled opponent. The various curse and malison spells can help impair opponent spell resistance. Ideally, every spell ye cast should disallow any sort of save or at least inflict a little harm even when fully resisted. Avoid using spells which are easily countered by other spells. Don't focus exclusively on a single form of energy/attack (fire, water, wind, sonic, etc) unless ye have such special mastery of the form that ye cannot possibly be opposed.
My favourite spell of all time might be (Melf's) minute meteors, it can deliver a little damage each round (while still allowing spellcasting and other actions) and inflict spectacular amounts of damage when cast repeatedly. Another favourite is Chromatic Orb, which can be surprisingly dangerous at higher levels. Maze has some merit as well. I've had tremendous success casting chain lightning into water, I like carnage and overkill.
Don't try to beat a specialist at his own game, not unless ye can play the same game better. Don't fall into the "chessmaster" trap of attempting to play with yer opponent and perfectly counter each of his spells with precision, ye gain little from countering his spell with one of slightly lower level: just blast him into dust as quickly as ye can and collect your trophy. Remember that many of the greatest duels between mighty archmages were decided with a haymaker or a revolver. There is no substitute for success, victory is never unelegant.
Always keep fighters at a safe distance (levitate yerself out of range and create an illusory rust monster if ye must). Detect invisibility will let ye spot any backstabbing thieves or pesky elves who try to skulk about unseen. Don't waste yer time trying to put elves to sleep, just cast protection from normal missiles. It also doesn't hurt to eat lotsa spicy garlic to help keep those elves (and vampires) far away.
Being able to also draw from divine magics can increase yer effectiveness dramatically; priest spells can provide unbeatable defense against fire, cold, lightning, and similar stuff, and all those little bonuses gained from minor bless and prayer spells can really make a difference. I think of clerics as force multipliers.
Don't depend on magics which turn or reflect spells unless ye're intimately familiar with their quirks.
Concentrate attacks on yer opponent's familiar. Blast the wee beastie into ashes without mercy or hesitation, no matter how disgustingly cute it may appear. If yer opponent is foolish enough (or can be forced through gust of wind or telekinesis) to break physical contact with his familiar then they are both vulnerable. If ye have a familiar yerself, then keep the beastie invisible and buff it up with armor, stoneskin, etc; keep it near at all times, even if ye need to use reduce or an armoured harness to do so. Stick a magical ring or collar on it if ye can. It's tempting to give it offensive buffs, but very dangerous; at least vampiric touch will help keep it healed, remember that most animal familiars suck even more than wizards in combat.
While on the topic of concentrated attacks: let yer minions play at silly wolfpack and harassing skirmish tactics while ye methodically eliminate threats one target at a time, concentrating the full intensity of yer firepower on each until it falls down and stops moving. Ye can gain an element of surprise by launching fireballs and other area-effect stuff before all yer minions have fallen. A surprised mage is a victim.
If the duel is not prearranged ye can also gain surprise by starting some disarming chit-chat. In many encounters, "wanna see a magic trick?" is a surefire way to get the first spell off without interruption.
The battlefield itself is always important in any conflict. Terrain, weather, and conditions can dictate yer magic to a great degree and should never be dismissed; though mages are capable of dramatically changing these things, so they're of lesser consequence in a magic duel than in a duel between fighters or armies. Ye'd not be casting call lightning on a calm sunny day, unless ye'd like to first spend some time casting weather control magics. Hallucinatory terrain can be quite powerful, whether cast during or before the duel. A confused mage is a victim.
There are innumerable other spells which serve well in combat, though I've tried to only mention those which are most common and well understood. Ye'll note that these examples tend to be lower (and some middle) level magics, things can get downright ugly when the higher level stuff and creative use of magic items are brought into play.
Ye may notice that I prefer to play mages rather aggressively. Mages are blasters, they have greater range and firepower than any other class ... but it's foolish to pretend they can stand toe-to-toe with any other class, so don't let it happen. Mages are also the most versatile class (at least beyond the low levels, once they've mastered a useful variety of spells), so make use of their advantages to put opponents at a disadvantage. Because their combat abilities are so pathetic they can benefit the most from weapons and spells which give them little combat bonuses; a mage with a +2 staff can (slowly) pummel another mage down with implacable success. I also prefer to not engage in formal duels ... there is the time, the place, and the method of battle, and if ye can control all three elements without allowing yer opponent any concessions then victory is almost assured. Always have an escape route. Always maintain (Rary's) mnemonic enhancer, contigency, persistent, permanent, and (Elminster's) evasion magics if ye know these spells. Items such as a ring of wizardry tend to have more value to adventuring mages than dueling ones since the battle is usually quickly decided, unless of course ye be like me and choose to battle multiple mages at once. Low level mages might make good use of acids, flaming oil, sneezing or itching powders, flash or stink bombs, green slime, rot grubs, and other scummy cheap tricks (or illusions of the same) which impair spellcasting and can be hurled at another mage. Some mages are fond of grease and snowball spells, though I'd prefer to win the duel quickly instead of inflicting slapstick (unless of course an objective is to humiliate the opponent). |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Mar 2011 14:37:55 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 16:28:37
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We play 3.x edition... In fearûn. And basicly all spells are inclueded in the teachings.
Also information about undead and ways o hit highly buffed wizards are welcome.
To overcome El's Effulgent Epuration, spellturning, blink and so on... basicly its an education af a elite group if wizards called Aurora Knights, and they are in training to become guardians of Mystra/the Weave and they are going to be part of a couter messure against, amung others, They, the Zhentarim and the likes... so I need info about how to battle the foes from those factions!
Oh yeah and thx for the great post Arik! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 17:00:53
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Ye'll be using this training to threaten Thay and the Zhentarim, ye say? Smells like profit to me, I'll just open up some academies there as well. Hmmm, I could offer expensive courses on teleport skirmishing, blink formations, and dimensional assaults ...
I do have a question. Why would Mystra/the Weave need to be militantly guarded from evil magic using nations? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 28 Mar 2011 17:05:17 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 20:12:18
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Well... she needs help since she has fallen silent after a sertain spell have been cast in they... A weave sphere, that actualy draws so much power from the weave that it destroys it... so something realy bad is going on and the zulkirs are messing things up... soo a council have dicided that a new form of elite unit needed training
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 20:46:33
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| <cough> Chosen <cough> |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 23:13:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well... she needs help since she has fallen silent after a sertain spell have been cast in they... A weave sphere, that actualy draws so much power from the weave that it destroys it... so something realy bad is going on and the zulkirs are messing things up... soo a council have dicided that a new form of elite unit needed training
So how is anyone learning to cast spells, when the Weave isn't there?
And why did Mystra allow the destruction of the Weave? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 01:12:52
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| I'll second Wooly's above query. I need to know more about how Mystra allowed this disastrous effect to befall the Weave. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Mar 2011 01:13:27 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 04:33:30
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quote:
Nicolai Withander
Well... she needs help since she has fallen silent after a sertain spell have been cast in they... A weave sphere, that actualy draws so much power from the weave that it destroys it... so something realy bad is going on and the zulkirs are messing things up... soo a council have dicided that a new form of elite unit needed training
Oooooh, I like it!
To me "a council" means "a private agenda" or "a snakepit". Councils *always* have enemies, as often as not within their own ranks. Machiavellian religious or political manipulation behind the scenes, sometimes a "cold war" power struggle full of spies and lies, daggers and blackmail and treachery. So somebody powerful has sanctioned the creation of an (expensive!) elite special ops unit trained in assassination and guerilla warmagic after deployment on foreign soil (no explicit RL parallels intended). The Mystra angle is just necessary to gain support of key individuals or lobby groups or even the bleating public masses, plus it makes great plausible deniability. Wait 'til yer players figure out their organization works fer somebody with "questionable" moral principles. Mwoohahahaa!
This information will be worth quite a bit to the Zhents. Er, I mean, to their historians and scholars, of course. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Mar 2011 05:48:13 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 09:49:52
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Ha ha...
Its just because that the spell they cast, even though they have been warned, creates holes in the weave. So it has been decided to stop them. I didn't want to go into this since i knew how much trouble I'd have explaining all this, but that’s at least how things are going on in our campaign.
And we don’t quite know for sure what or where is going on with Mystra. We fear however that she is weakened or bound by something, and that is why she does not stop a potentially spellplagueing spell.
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 29 Mar 2011 09:52:36 |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 04:40:34
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well, my ECL 21 mage character is Valthier Edonil'Barra, a Chaotic Neutral male Albino Dark Elf Vampire Sorcerer 3/Cleric 3/Mythic Theurge 10/Barbarian 1 of Kiaransalee withe the Darkness and Retribution Domains.
he fought an ECL 21 Lawful Evil Half-Fiend Dark Elf Warlock 17. I used the following tactics:
1.) Transform into Beast Form (Vampiric Alternate Form, Dire Wolf. in the game I played him he could stand on hind legs and use Claw natural weapons. also had a special set of Wire Claws, which were Gloves that could extend flexible wires out of either knuckles or fingertips out to 15 feet, and harden into blades at will. they dealt 1d4 slashing damage, and were enchanted to +5 enhancement).
2.) I had the Wild Spell feat, so I could cast Tenser's Transformation. I did. =w=
3.) I activated my Rage, and just went all out.
by halfway through round 4 my opponent was overkilled. I had calculated ahead of time that my Caster Level was not high enough to overcome his SR effectively (my CL for Sorcerer and Cleric Spells are both 13) and that my SR was not high enough to stop many of a pure-caster's Spells/Spell-Like Abilities (my SR is only 18, and he had like Spell Power bonuses, and the whole line of Spell Penetration feats...).
obviously, this isn't realy a "Mage-Dual", and if it DOES count, it's teh cheapest BS move ever. XD but that's why Valthier rocks ass all night long.
so, I also suggest Necromancy Spells (such as Ray of Enfeeblement, or Enervation), as well as anything that requirs Fortitude saves (such as Symbol of Death, Rainbow Pattern, Prismatic Spells of any kind), and of course Otiluke's Resiliant Sphere and the Bigby's line of Spells.
avoid the ever so tempting Phantasmal Killer, or other Willpower-Save Spells; Mages tend to have high base Willpower. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2011 : 05:03:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
We play 3.x edition... In fearûn. And basicly all spells are inclueded in the teachings.
Also information about undead and ways o hit highly buffed wizards are welcome.
To overcome El's Effulgent Epuration, spellturning, blink and so on... basicly its an education af a elite group if wizards called Aurora Knights, and they are in training to become guardians of Mystra/the Weave and they are going to be part of a couter messure against, amung others, They, the Zhentarim and the likes... so I need info about how to battle the foes from those factions!
Oh yeah and thx for the great post Arik!
dude, my specialties. =w=
as I play a Vampire mage myself, I have a few suggestions. pack a Holy Symbol around, at all times. even if yo uare not a Divine Caster, those buggers can keep a Vampire at bay.
also, keep Holy Water on you whenever you can. also, have Create Water available for casting. that way, you can get it blessed somehow. it's also just an extremely useful utility spell. you have no idea how often I hve used Create Water, and for how many purposes.
Animate Rope can come in way handy, and don't underestimate it's usefulness as an enstranglement. keep that opponent distracted, and grapple. against a regular living mage, you'd be good with a Bull's Strength and a Cat's Grace to grapple with, but most undead you want to keep at a distance. they tend to have up-close attacks (touches and natural attacks) which they can easily use while grappling to give them an edge.
buffed mages are very effective. I suggest debuff spells, such as Dispel Magic, Greater Dispel Magic, and Antimagic Field. also, Bestow Curse and other such spells.
anything that keeps a mage in one place is also an effective way of defeating them. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Mage duel Tactics
