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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 14:28:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Alright then. RAS will repeatedly say the situation is hopeless based on numbers alone, that eventually they'll be overwhelmed, but we're never given any real indication this'll be the case, what with how effortlessly the heroes will swat aside the mass of whatever given enemy is throwing themselves on their swords to the point where it's less like reading a battle and more like reading about puppies running into a woodchipper. RAS loves his heroes to the detriment of his villains, both big and small. He is getting slightly better at this; the pit fiend in Gaunt was surprisingly threatening. Wasn't given much in the way of character, but certainly more menacing than Errtu.
Not to jack my own thread, but that Pit Fit seemed more like some kind of arch devil. Bruenor was boosted to the max and IMO should have made short work of any standard Pit Fiend... |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 14:49:10
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| It is possible that particular one was a duke. We're given hardly any information on him. Still, I'm rather bais on the manner, and certainly not towards the dwarf. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 15:12:11
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Alright then. RAS will repeatedly say the situation is hopeless based on numbers alone, that eventually they'll be overwhelmed, but we're never given any real indication this'll be the case, what with how effortlessly the heroes will swat aside the mass of whatever given enemy is throwing themselves on their swords to the point where it's less like reading a battle and more like reading about puppies running into a woodchipper. RAS loves his heroes to the detriment of his villains, both big and small. He is getting slightly better at this; the pit fiend in Gaunt was surprisingly threatening. Wasn't given much in the way of character, but certainly more menacing than Errtu.
Not to jack my own thread, but that Pit Fit seemed more like some kind of arch devil. Bruenor was boosted to the max and IMO should have made short work of any standard Pit Fiend...
Uh, that particular pit fiend was called one of Asmodeus' personal servants. Whom are all nearing archdevil power anyways.
And yes, he was called a duke of the nine hells in the book. Exceptionally powerful creatures that could take multiple Errtu's by themselves. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 19:32:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Alright then. RAS will repeatedly say the situation is hopeless based on numbers alone, that eventually they'll be overwhelmed, but we're never given any real indication this'll be the case, what with how effortlessly the heroes will swat aside the mass of whatever given enemy is throwing themselves on their swords to the point where it's less like reading a battle and more like reading about puppies running into a woodchipper. RAS loves his heroes to the detriment of his villains, both big and small. He is getting slightly better at this; the pit fiend in Gaunt was surprisingly threatening. Wasn't given much in the way of character, but certainly more menacing than Errtu.
Not to jack my own thread, but that Pit Fit seemed more like some kind of arch devil. Bruenor was boosted to the max and IMO should have made short work of any standard Pit Fiend...
Uh, that particular pit fiend was called one of Asmodeus' personal servants. Whom are all nearing archdevil power anyways.
And yes, he was called a duke of the nine hells in the book. Exceptionally powerful creatures that could take multiple Errtu's by themselves.
Well, going back to mechanics...which many FR authors try to loosely apply to their writing if I remember correctly...
A Type VI had 8+8 HD in 1e...and a Pit Fiend 13 HD. Even so, the likes of the Lords who ruled entire layers of Hell might only have 133 or so HP...so I don't see them swatting aside "many Ertuus" as only a Duke.
That stands for later editions as well...which to me has always been a weakness of game mechanics rules. Even Asmodeus, as written in any rules I've seen, wouldn't be able to stand against all the other Lords combined (which apparently he has done)...so rules break down at some point and break the suspension of disbelief...
Novels on the other hand don't have to truly go by rules, so I guess we are stuck in a sort of limbo regarding being Gamers and being Novel Lovers of the Forgotten Realms. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 19:51:50
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| The Manual of the Planes (in a piece I outright ignore) states that while no individual Lord of the Nine poses a threat to Asmodeus(except possibly Mephistopheles due to an divine superweapon he's rumored to have gotten hold of), if all eight of them ganged up on him, he'd be in trouble. It's one of the reasons he constantly plays them against each other. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
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http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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AleksanderTheGreat
Seeker
90 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 23:09:49
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| Note that archdevils and demon lords stated in handbooks aren't the REAL fiends. They're just aspects. The real Asmodeus is horridly powerful and his real body is the size of his layer (if not bigger). |
Fighting for order! - Join me in the battle! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 23:33:59
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Killing any outsider (and deities are just uber-powerful outsiders) 'for good', is nigh-on impossible.
No matter what you do, their 'essence' reforms eventually and they can come back.
This is why so many Archmages choose to imprison powerful entities, rather then banish them. Its a bit risky, but at least you can keep track of them.
You Banish them, and they show up a century later to wreak vengeance on your grandkids.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 03:52:24
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quote:
Originally posted by AleksanderTheGreat
Note that archdevils and demon lords stated in handbooks aren't the REAL fiends. They're just aspects. The real Asmodeus is horridly powerful and his real body is the size of his layer (if not bigger).
Such a definition doesn't really apply...that is only the ruling of certain versions of Dungeons and Dragons and isn't the "truth" in all other versions.
For example, my favored game, Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, has Asmodeus as a fella with a -7 Armor Class and 199 Hit Points; and that is WHO HE IS...and not some mega-primal force in the Multi-Verse. In fact, the "rule of the day" was that Asmodeus wasn't even the original leader of the Devils; but instead "Asmodeus is the current overlord of the Dukes of Hell" as described in the Manual of the Planes.
While to be considered a "Lesser God" in his home plane, Asmodeus also commanded the loyalty of Geryon and Tiamat! However, he did not rule all the Nine Hells at all...even the First Layer of Avernus where Set sits and the combined might of the Devils can't drive him away.
As for Ertuu in the Abyss, if he was a lord of a layer (or even part) the same book says he would be equal to a Lesser God in his own domain.
Different rule system than many are used to though. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 09:05:22
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| By the current rule set Errtu wouldn't have any influence over the matter of the region of the layer he commanded except through physical labor, and maybe not even then as the Abyss is notorious for rearranging itself. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 14:01:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Debatable but I'll give it to you that Yeenoghu isn't far above him in intellect. Considerably above him in power, though.
Most demon lords tend to be fairly intelligent; perhaps not as brilliant as their archdevil counterparts, but the only one that I know of that relies solely on brute force is Kostchtchie, who's only a puppet for a more cunning and devious force.
Depends on what edition of the game you are playing. In 1e Yeenoghu is a punk...just saying. 
As a matter of fact, looking at his stats and those of a Type VI, I'd even wager that Ertuu, having an artifact like the Crystal Shard might give Ertuu the advantage!
What most people don't realize when they are reading novels...especially early Novels like the Crystal Shard...that the game being used then had VASTLY different mechanics and statistics.
Ertuu in 1e would have only had 72 HP maximum! I mean, that isn't a mind-blowing amount of physical durability.
That's because in 1e, Nothing was really fleshed out yet. It was a simplified version of the game. It was improved upon. The authors are required to use the current versions and rules in their shared world fiction. So other than the first few books, 1e is utterly irrelevant.
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 14:11:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Alright then. RAS will repeatedly say the situation is hopeless based on numbers alone, that eventually they'll be overwhelmed, but we're never given any real indication this'll be the case, what with how effortlessly the heroes will swat aside the mass of whatever given enemy is throwing themselves on their swords to the point where it's less like reading a battle and more like reading about puppies running into a woodchipper. RAS loves his heroes to the detriment of his villains, both big and small. He is getting slightly better at this; the pit fiend in Gaunt was surprisingly threatening. Wasn't given much in the way of character, but certainly more menacing than Errtu.
Not to jack my own thread, but that Pit Fit seemed more like some kind of arch devil. Bruenor was boosted to the max and IMO should have made short work of any standard Pit Fiend...
Uh, that particular pit fiend was called one of Asmodeus' personal servants. Whom are all nearing archdevil power anyways.
And yes, he was called a duke of the nine hells in the book. Exceptionally powerful creatures that could take multiple Errtu's by themselves.
Well, going back to mechanics...which many FR authors try to loosely apply to their writing if I remember correctly...
A Type VI had 8+8 HD in 1e...and a Pit Fiend 13 HD. Even so, the likes of the Lords who ruled entire layers of Hell might only have 133 or so HP...so I don't see them swatting aside "many Ertuus" as only a Duke.
That stands for later editions as well...which to me has always been a weakness of game mechanics rules. Even Asmodeus, as written in any rules I've seen, wouldn't be able to stand against all the other Lords combined (which apparently he has done)...so rules break down at some point and break the suspension of disbelief...
Novels on the other hand don't have to truly go by rules, so I guess we are stuck in a sort of limbo regarding being Gamers and being Novel Lovers of the Forgotten Realms.
Asmodeus's always played the other devils against each other, as another mentioned, yet always had a supreme amount of power in the hells. He can change the physical forms of other Devils(Including Archdevils) by merely willing it. Being lawful evil, he only does so when they really go out of line.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 19:33:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Debatable but I'll give it to you that Yeenoghu isn't far above him in intellect. Considerably above him in power, though.
Most demon lords tend to be fairly intelligent; perhaps not as brilliant as their archdevil counterparts, but the only one that I know of that relies solely on brute force is Kostchtchie, who's only a puppet for a more cunning and devious force.
Depends on what edition of the game you are playing. In 1e Yeenoghu is a punk...just saying.
As a matter of fact, looking at his stats and those of a Type VI, I'd even wager that Ertuu, having an artifact like the Crystal Shard might give Ertuu the advantage!
What most people don't realize when they are reading novels...especially early Novels like the Crystal Shard...that the game being used then had VASTLY different mechanics and statistics.
Ertuu in 1e would have only had 72 HP maximum! I mean, that isn't a mind-blowing amount of physical durability.
That's because in 1e, Nothing was really fleshed out yet. It was a simplified version of the game. It was improved upon. The authors are required to use the current versions and rules in their shared world fiction. So other than the first few books, 1e is utterly irrelevant.
 "utterly irrelevant" isn't something that sticks mate...not at all. You can't deem "irrelevant" the very game that was being played for 12 years before the next edition was created. Nearly all early Realms novels were written under its aegis, as well as Dragonlance Novels and etc.
I actually count that as an insult, as I've explained that 1e is MY Realms basis, and so you don't get to discount my views simply because you don't agree with them...period.
My argument has even GREATER impact on the current argument; because Ertuu was originally written under the rules I personally favor. It explains the ease in which he was defeated by a "mere" Frostbrand sword, it explains why he didn't have a great deal of magical power (as some now wonder why he didn't use then) because he simply didn't have such powers and physical prowess.
So don't try to stand on a high rock and talk down to me; I don't take it well when what I'm saying is said to be "irrelevant".
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 28 Mar 2011 19:50:44 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 19:45:23
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| Ok, so there's mechanical justification for Errtu being an underwhelming, unthreatening, ineffective villain. That doesn't change the fact that he was an underwhelming, unthreatening, ineffective villain. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 19:52:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Ok, so there's mechanical justification for Errtu being an underwhelming, unthreatening, ineffective villain. That doesn't change the fact that he was an underwhelming, unthreatening, ineffective villain.
I agree. I don't think they should have used a powerful demon without him being a true threat. I never even agreed that Drizzt should have been able to summon such a fiend! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 23:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Debatable but I'll give it to you that Yeenoghu isn't far above him in intellect. Considerably above him in power, though.
Most demon lords tend to be fairly intelligent; perhaps not as brilliant as their archdevil counterparts, but the only one that I know of that relies solely on brute force is Kostchtchie, who's only a puppet for a more cunning and devious force.
Depends on what edition of the game you are playing. In 1e Yeenoghu is a punk...just saying.
As a matter of fact, looking at his stats and those of a Type VI, I'd even wager that Ertuu, having an artifact like the Crystal Shard might give Ertuu the advantage!
What most people don't realize when they are reading novels...especially early Novels like the Crystal Shard...that the game being used then had VASTLY different mechanics and statistics.
Ertuu in 1e would have only had 72 HP maximum! I mean, that isn't a mind-blowing amount of physical durability.
That's because in 1e, Nothing was really fleshed out yet. It was a simplified version of the game. It was improved upon. The authors are required to use the current versions and rules in their shared world fiction. So other than the first few books, 1e is utterly irrelevant.
"utterly irrelevant" isn't something that sticks mate...not at all. You can't deem "irrelevant" the very game that was being played for 12 years before the next edition was created. Nearly all early Realms novels were written under its aegis, as well as Dragonlance Novels and etc.
I actually count that as an insult, as I've explained that 1e is MY Realms basis, and so you don't get to discount my views simply because you don't agree with them...period.
My argument has even GREATER impact on the current argument; because Ertuu was originally written under the rules I personally favor. It explains the ease in which he was defeated by a "mere" Frostbrand sword, it explains why he didn't have a great deal of magical power (as some now wonder why he didn't use then) because he simply didn't have such powers and physical prowess.
So don't try to stand on a high rock and talk down to me; I don't take it well when what I'm saying is said to be "irrelevant".
Calm down.
Was not meant to be an insult. Look at it in context. The conversation was regarding the Duke of the 9 Hells and that he seemed much more threatening than Errtu. That was written under 4e viewpoint. Under today's rules and viewpoints, a Duke of the nine hells would utterly mop the floor with multiple Errtu's.
Authors are required due to the shared world nature of the realm they are writing in to follow certain things to a degree, including the updated rules.
Bringing 1e Rules into the conversation regarding how much more threatening a Duke of the nine hells is than Errtu was in a 4e book to me, makes no sense. See what I am getting at? |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 23:45:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Ok, so there's mechanical justification for Errtu being an underwhelming, unthreatening, ineffective villain. That doesn't change the fact that he was an underwhelming, unthreatening, ineffective villain.
I agree. I don't think they should have used a powerful demon without him being a true threat. I never even agreed that Drizzt should have been able to summon such a fiend!
He was not really able to summon him. He made a makeshift circle due to his rudimentary training at the academy and knew Errtu's true name due to his time with his people.
Errtu in the book noted how utterly weak the call was, and how he could have ignored it completely even with the use of his real name(Something that would allow real mages to strengthen their binding), but he went anyways just due to the fact that someone knew his true name and that bothered him.
Had Errtu been in the abyss at the time, it is doubtful a below rank dabbler in the art like Drizzt would have had sufficient knowledge or power to open a gate. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2011 : 23:49:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I wouldn't place the likes of Yeenoghu far above him in cunning or intelligence.
Many Demon Lords are only lords because of physical power...Devils tend to have more brains by my way of seeing things.
This is certainly correct. Devils are inherently stronger and smarter.
Otherwise, the blood war would have been over long ago. The Demons had an unlimited supply of beasts to send into the bloodwar, while the devils were very limited as they do not have an unending supply, yet the devils managed to stalemate them for millions of years.
Of course, that is all over now that Asmodeus used his personal power to move the entire Abyss below the elemental chaos, ending the blood war forever |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 00:06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Calm down.
Was not meant to be an insult. Look at it in context. The conversation was regarding the Duke of the 9 Hells and that he seemed much more threatening than Errtu. That was written under 4e viewpoint. Under today's rules and viewpoints, a Duke of the nine hells would utterly mop the floor with multiple Errtu's.
Authors are required due to the shared world nature of the realm they are writing in to follow certain things to a degree, including the updated rules.
Bringing 1e Rules into the conversation regarding how much more threatening a Duke of the nine hells is than Errtu was in a 4e book to me, makes no sense. See what I am getting at?
No. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 00:08:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I wouldn't place the likes of Yeenoghu far above him in cunning or intelligence.
Many Demon Lords are only lords because of physical power...Devils tend to have more brains by my way of seeing things.
This is certainly correct. Devils are inherently stronger and smarter.
Otherwise, the blood war would have been over long ago. The Demons had an unlimited supply of beasts to send into the bloodwar, while the devils were very limited as they do not have an unending supply, yet the devils managed to stalemate them for millions of years.
Of course, that is all over now that Asmodeus used his personal power to move the entire Abyss below the elemental chaos, ending the blood war forever
Which to me is rubbish. The Forgotten Realms I enjoy doesn't even know anything about a "Blood War" and in fact there was no such thing until later.
I guess I'm just old and out of fashion in my views of what the Forgotten Realms is about. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 00:11:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Calm down.
Was not meant to be an insult. Look at it in context. The conversation was regarding the Duke of the 9 Hells and that he seemed much more threatening than Errtu. That was written under 4e viewpoint. Under today's rules and viewpoints, a Duke of the nine hells would utterly mop the floor with multiple Errtu's.
Authors are required due to the shared world nature of the realm they are writing in to follow certain things to a degree, including the updated rules.
Bringing 1e Rules into the conversation regarding how much more threatening a Duke of the nine hells is than Errtu was in a 4e book to me, makes no sense. See what I am getting at?
No.
The current books we are talking about(Comparing Errtu to a duke of the 9 hells), and the current status or Errtu are 4e. Therefore, 1e does not apply. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 00:14:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I wouldn't place the likes of Yeenoghu far above him in cunning or intelligence.
Many Demon Lords are only lords because of physical power...Devils tend to have more brains by my way of seeing things.
This is certainly correct. Devils are inherently stronger and smarter.
Otherwise, the blood war would have been over long ago. The Demons had an unlimited supply of beasts to send into the bloodwar, while the devils were very limited as they do not have an unending supply, yet the devils managed to stalemate them for millions of years.
Of course, that is all over now that Asmodeus used his personal power to move the entire Abyss below the elemental chaos, ending the blood war forever
Which to me is rubbish. The Forgotten Realms I enjoy doesn't even know anything about a "Blood War" and in fact there was no such thing until later.
I guess I'm just old and out of fashion in my views of what the Forgotten Realms is about.
Then why get involved in talks about things from novels and characters going on in the current edition rules?
The blood war was around at least in early 2nd edition, and I think I remember it being around in 1st as well. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 01:09:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
The blood war was around at least in early 2nd edition, and I think I remember it being around in 1st as well.
And there are instances in the PLANESCAPE material which reference elements of the Blood War impacting upon the Realms also. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 03:28:19
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| I'd like to mention that Errtu has not been in any of the 4th era books, so a comparison cannot be made regarding his appearances, which were both in 1ts and 2nd era books. His stats in later editions would certainly make him much more of a threat now- should he actually appear again. He might almost be a match for that pit fiend in Gauntlegrym, but we can't know unless he makes an appearance in the current time-line! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 04:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Calm down.
Was not meant to be an insult. Look at it in context. The conversation was regarding the Duke of the 9 Hells and that he seemed much more threatening than Errtu. That was written under 4e viewpoint. Under today's rules and viewpoints, a Duke of the nine hells would utterly mop the floor with multiple Errtu's.
Authors are required due to the shared world nature of the realm they are writing in to follow certain things to a degree, including the updated rules.
Bringing 1e Rules into the conversation regarding how much more threatening a Duke of the nine hells is than Errtu was in a 4e book to me, makes no sense. See what I am getting at?
No.
The current books we are talking about(Comparing Errtu to a duke of the 9 hells), and the current status or Errtu are 4e. Therefore, 1e does not apply.
What 4e material has Ertuu been in? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 04:04:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Then why get involved in talks about things from novels and characters going on in the current edition rules?
The blood war was around at least in early 2nd edition, and I think I remember it being around in 1st as well.
Ahhh...so I should just shut my mouth and not talk simply because of what edition of the game I prefer?
Please refer me to the 1e source that speaks on the Bloodwar... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 29 Mar 2011 04:05:04 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 05:02:02
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I'm pretty sure the Blood War was a 2E innovation, and primarily constrained to the planescape material, though yes some BW adventure would sometimes spill over onto the Realms or other worlds. I can't recall any specific instances of real devil-vs-demon conflict driving a plot or army anywhere through 1E, though I suppose it might have been invented (if not named) in any one of the magazine articles. Mordenkainen's Codex (which first introduces the Blood War to 2E) might be a hint that Oerth has been somehow touched by this conflict, although the passages seem to indicate Mordenkainen's stunned surprise and morose horror when learning of the Blood War's existence and nature.
Uh, I thought it was already agreed that (the evolution of) game editions and rules were not particularly relevant in the novels; Ertuu is a fictional character from a fictional tale. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 05:50:00
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My point simply being that the rules, while not seriously relevant, must only be considered in the context of how particular monsters were viewed by writers when the various editions of the game were "in play" so to speak.
Novels being novels, the rules really have no bearing on them...just looking at Drizzt as a prime example!
I guess I don't like being told my frame of reference is "irrelevant" or that I should "calm down" as if I'm some petulant child to be chided by someone thinking their own view is superior to my own and I can be easily dismissed in that manner... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 06:02:50
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Well, there's an alternative for those who cannot defer to Ertuu's multi-edition madness in the novels ... simply make RAS sit down and rewrite his (growing pile of) novels every time a new D&D comes out. It's good to have a little handwavium in your diet. Of course this practice would cost money, delay novel (re)releases, and eventually drive some authors to suicide, but hey, such is the price of art, no?
An even worse alternative would be to cull and recall novels once their content is obsoleted. Rarity and value (to collectors) would increase, but overall this practice bears the noxious odour of censorship and diminishes access to Realmslore for everybody. The Realms are always changing; some people are content to watch the current season, but many fans prefer to have access to the entire collection. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Mar 2011 06:09:46 |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2011 : 06:20:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'd like to mention that Errtu has not been in any of the 4th era books, so a comparison cannot be made regarding his appearances, which were both in 1ts and 2nd era books. His stats in later editions would certainly make him much more of a threat now- should he actually appear again. He might almost be a match for that pit fiend in Gauntlegrym, but we can't know unless he makes an appearance in the current time-line!
Nope. But the current question is regarding his 100 year banishment and status in the current year and falls under 4e.
The person in question was asking why the Devil From Gauntlgrym seemed so much more threatening than Errtu(Also 4e) and simply because this high ranking duke devil ranked far above a non-affiliated Balor from the abyss. |
Edited by - Firestorm on 29 Mar 2011 06:31:08 |
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Ertuu's Status
