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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 03:07:09
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So as I'm reading RLB's fantastic Brotherhood of the Griffon (just started book two) I can't help but draw comparisons between Medrash, Dragonborn Paladin of Torm and Dragonbait, Saurial Paladin of Justice (Tyr?) from the Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy.
These races are exceptionally similar. RLB also begins refering to the Dragonborn as "Saurian" as well in Whisper of Venom (Book II). In The Hero's Lorebook it talks of The Saurials coming from an unknown different world. Was the Lost Vale an early merger/gate to Abeir? How much if any influence did the game designers of 4th edition draw from this pre-existing lore...or is it just a coincidence. Are Saurials actually dragonborn or are they two entirely different beings?
Thoughts?
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 03:10:49
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It was always my understanding that Saurials were somehow descended from or related to dino's, Thunder Lizards, and not related to Dragons in any way.
In fact, there are a lot of reptilian-type humanoids running around the Realms that really don't differ from one another all that much. Dragonborn, I think, are the exception. What with their magical abilities, breath weapons and what have you. Although I really am not all that familiar with the latest Draconian incarnation. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 16 Mar 2011 03:16:22 |
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jornan
Learned Scribe
Canada
256 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 03:20:55
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| I too thought that Saurials were more Dino than Dragon, and come to think of it there were triceratops type Saurials in that series. I guess it just would have been too easy for the seeds of returned abeir being planted way back when....it almost made me feel better about the merging of the two worlds. I'm getting over it anyway. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36974 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 03:21:59
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quote:
Originally posted by jornan
So as I'm reading RLB's fantastic Brotherhood of the Griffon (just started book two) I can't help but draw comparisons between Medrash, Dragonborn Paladin of Torm and Dragonbait, Saurial Paladin of Justice (Tyr?) from the Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb's Finder's Stone Trilogy.
These races are exceptionally similar. RLB also begins refering to the Dragonborn as "Saurian" as well in Whisper of Venom (Book II). In The Hero's Lorebook it talks of The Saurials coming from an unknown different world. Was the Lost Vale an early merger/gate to Abeir? How much if any influence did the game designers of 4th edition draw from this pre-existing lore...or is it just a coincidence. Are Saurials actually dragonborn or are they two entirely different beings?
Thoughts?
I think if there was any connection between saurials and dragonborn, the designers would have played up that element.
Also, the saurials are basically humanoid dinosaurs... Not much like dragonborn. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 03:24:39
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Other scribes (Markus and Wooly, IIRC) have noted the similarities between Saurials and Dragonborn; I recall some non-canon suggestions for "merging" the two races to simplify lore.
Though all paladins are pretty much the same in outlook (to my eyes) regardless of their race. Humanoid reptiles are pretty much the same (to my eyes) as well ... I suppose in all fairness they might think all demihumans are just a bunch of monkeys; they might have difficulty differentiating humans without plainly obvious cues (size, skin and hair colour, etc), they might even have difficulty determining our genders. It might be as insulting to call a saurial a dragonborn as it would be to call a dwarf an elf. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 03:25:47
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The saurials were brought to Faerūn as slaves by the god Moander. And, as I recall, it was also said that they came from "another world in another Material Plane." Which, I suppose, means OUTSIDE of Realmspace, whereas Abeir exists within the same Material Plane as Toril.
For more information, I suggest thumbing through these sources:- Lords of the Lost Vale, and the Saurials web enchancement for Serpent Kingdoms.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 03:53:23
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| A world wherein Moander might still be a living god? |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 05:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
A world wherein Moander might still be a living god?
Faiths & Avatars tells us that Moander has been banished from the Realms on more than one occasion.
Perhaps the saurial homeworld was one of the locations for these multiple banishments? Since, I'm assuming it would've taken some time [likely, the majority of his exile on the world of the saurials] for the Rotting God to enslave them.
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Edited by - The Sage on 16 Mar 2011 05:09:01 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 05:29:50
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If so, Moander might have subsumed an existing saurial deity, rotting it from within much as he did with Tyche. I wonder if he would have a reptilian aspect in the saurial world? Then again, his appearance is not well described anyhow, it's only implied that he has something of a human-like form. Indeed, he may be an interloping deity (or some sort of divine contagion) from the saurial world or elsewhere, given that his origins are actually unknown.
I've read the Finder's Stone trilogy, Finder's Bane, Tymora's Luck, all the 2E and 3E lore (PHBR10 Complete Book of Humanoids, Faiths & Pantheons, Faiths & Avatars, and various monster entries), all the wiki pages, and this Wizards article (plus a few others, but the my old links are dead) ... little is said about the saurial homeworld or Moander beyond what's been said here; I don't know of any spelljamming or planar links either. (Have I missed any good sourcebooks?)
[Edit]
Saurials and dragonborn are distinct races, and have probably remained mutually isolated, but that doesn't exclude the possibility that they both originated from Abeir just as many different humanoids originated from Toril. They may even share common ancestors from the earliest ages, there might be a reptilian equivalent of the "missing link".
Lizardmen are quite similar to some saurial varieties, and it is often stated that they are devolved from a once-mighty civilization predating those of the elves. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Mar 2011 05:38:20 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 06:27:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
If so, Moander might have subsumed an existing saurial deity, rotting it from within much as he did with Tyche. I wonder if he would have a reptilian aspect in the saurial world?
It's entirely possible.
Of the pantheon from the saurial homeworld, we know that:-
quote:
... they worship other deities but have converted to the worship of equivalent deities in Faerūn.
Perhaps a saurial demigod of rot and corruption lost his/her position to the "interloper" Moander, when he was originally exiled to the saurial homeworld. Maybe the saurial god was in a weakened state, from lack of worship, and the Rotting God saw an opportunity to turn his exile into a potential for greater power. Thus, he slew the saurial corruption god, subsumed his power and portfolio, and slowly twisted the faith of the Lost Vale Tribe toward himself. This increase in his power, drawn from the worship of the Lost Vale saurials, may have then allowed him to plan for his return to the Realms.
In any event, this scenario would've made it easier for Moander to shift back to the Realms, and return from his banishment, with a tribe of loyal saurial servants.
quote:
Then again, his appearance is not well described anyhow, it's only implied that he has something of a human-like form. Indeed, he may be an interloping deity (or some sort of divine contagion) from the saurial world or elsewhere, given that his origins are actually unknown.
I've always entertained a partial theory that what would become Moander, was originally some divinely-bred god-killing rot/corruption that was initially crafted by militant interloper/alien deities -- in effort to target rivals of other faiths on various worlds, and then slowly rot their power and faith from the inside out. Once they were severely weakened, the interloper deities would send divine servants forth, forging a celestial beachhead on a target world, and slowly begin to lay the foundation for the rival god to take over.
Unfortunately, Ao caught wind of this when it was attempted in Realmspace, and the attack was halted. But not before the divine corruptive virus managed to gain a sliver of sentience from its initial target in the Realms pantheon. Thus halted, and forgotten, it became mired for a time in a kind of static viral state. The viral corruption then attempted to feed on itself, but the sliver of gained sentience immediately sparked to attention and fought back. What occurred next was a battle between a neglected virus and an infant spark of divine awareness. The result, Moander. Still inclined toward the corruption of deities, the gained sentience also motivated the Rotting God's interest in mortal faiths and the potential for his corruptive touch to spread beyond the sphere of the divine.
quote:
I've read the Finder's Stone trilogy, Finder's Bane, Tymora's Luck, all the 2E and 3E lore (PHBR10 Complete Book of Humanoids, Faiths & Pantheons, Faiths & Avatars, and various monster entries), all the wiki pages, and this Wizards article (plus a few others, but the my old links are dead) ... little is said about the saurial homeworld or Moander beyond what's been said here; I don't know of any spelljamming or planar links either. (Have I missed any good sourcebooks?)
Have you read the web enhancement for Serpent Kingdoms that I linked to earlier?
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Edited by - The Sage on 16 Mar 2011 06:31:59 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2011 : 18:01:34
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quote:
The Sage Have you read the web enhancement for Serpent Kingdoms that I linked to earlier?
Yes, along with Serpent Kingdoms itself. My mistake, sorry, I should've listed them above.
Our musings about Moander-the-divinely-sentient-contagion seem somewhat similar, though I'd only speculated on the possibility of him originating as something of a "natural" process - the idea of him being an engineered god-killing weapon is very interesting. It also comes with urgent questions: Who made the Darkbringer? Why? How many other Darkbringers are there, how many other pantheons have been infected or even completely destroyed? Is there any sort of permanent cure or defense?
My speculation was based on the hypothesis that the Darkbringer must be a sentient (and adaptable) pathogen powerful enough to affect deities (ie: it was somehow invested with divinity along the way). Perhaps a rotting remnant from a lost pantheon? Perhaps exiled from the Abyss? Perhaps an incomprehensible Cthulhu-inspired abomination which consumes deities much as illithids consume mortals? In any event, Moander may have once been a more benign god (perhaps a druid god representing plants and herbs, medicines, and healing or some such) wherever he originated, tormented into insane hateful malignance over a centuries-long rotting transformation. If left unchecked, would the disease/weapon have fully transformed Tyche into an über-Beshaba goddess of rotten luck? Moander's attempt to reunify Tyche (in Tymora's Luck) suggests (to me) that the "disease" is motivated to spread.
The Darkbringer might even be a more cosmic malign entity whose consciousness spans across every world his infestation touches, something akin to Zerg in StarCraft. Moander might be as much a puppet of this rotten overmind as are the lesser creatures who are infected by his corrupt seeds.
Shambling mounds may have once been a vibrant and healthy race (who probably worshipped a Darkbringer-infected power). The saurial races might have faced (indeed, may still face) a similar threat ... then again, they might have some immunity now that many of them are forsaking their old gods in favour of Faerūnian deities.
Poor little Finder is already rotting from within in my Realms; his divinity carries the spores of this sickness. Beshaba does as well, at a more developed stage, though the excising/quarantine of her power (from Tyche) has halted the spread ... for now. The Principle of Contagion: once together, always together. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 Mar 2011 22:10:49 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 10:43:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Our musings about Moander-the-divinely-sentient-contagion seem somewhat similar, though I'd only speculated on the possibility of him originating as something of a "natural" process - the idea of him being an engineered god-killing weapon is very interesting. It also comes with urgent questions: Who made the Darkbringer?
Anyone or anything, I suppose. Divine psionic residue with malevolent purpose left floating in the ether? The Primordials? Perhaps the divine spark of awareness was simply corrupted when it came in contact with the contagion, as I described in my conception?
Ideally, there may have been some psionic imprint of the creators responsible for the divine virus, left in the contagion. It could be, that Moander's form is an unconsciousness semi-reflection of his creators.
A way-far-out theory I've been contemplating for the past year suggests that the ancient Imaskari were actually responsible for the creation of the proto-divine virus that became Moander. But I'd have to dig my notes out to elaborate further on that.
quote:
Why?
Aside from the scenario I outlined above, you mean? Hmmm. I like the idea of a cabal of assassin-deities getting together and drafting contracts for "hits" on other deities that freelancing avatars, divine agents, or whatever might take up. Maybe the proto-Moander divine virus was simply another tool these assassin-deities sought to make use of.
Really, why do gods do whatever it is they do? For followers. For worship. For power. For the benefit or detriment of their supplicants or enemies? Their reasons are likely as varied as the portfolios they each command.
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How many other Darkbringers are there, how many other pantheons have been infected or even completely destroyed?
I speculated, once, that Moander might have had a hand in bringing down Aoskar, but that's a discussion for another time. [In other words, when I've found my notes for that as well.]
quote:
Is there any sort of permanent cure or defense?
Depends on the needs/directions of the campaign world, I suppose.
quote:
My speculation was based on the hypothesis that the Darkbringer must be a sentient (and adaptable) pathogen powerful enough to affect deities (ie: it was somehow invested with divinity along the way). Perhaps a rotting remnant from a lost pantheon? Perhaps exiled from the Abyss?
Oooh! Maybe an uncontrolled evolution of a Blood War "bio-weapon." A virus born of the ancient Baatorians, semi-perfected by the yugoloths, and then set upon the winds of the Blood War, where it was intended to strip worlds of divine power and prevent deities from taking sides and/or adding their strength to one side or the other, should the War spill into neighbouring Material Planes. [That would be a suitably Yugoloth-thing to do, since it would ultimately prolong the War itself.] Thus, it eventually found its way into Realmspace. [Okay, so that's a really "out-there" theory, but it's one I'd like to tinker with further].
quote:
Perhaps an incomprehensible Cthulhu-inspired abomination which consumes deities much as illithids consume mortals?
Hmmmm. Maybe 'twas a creation of Ilsensine, as a precursor method of extracting knowledge from divine beings? Only it went a step further, and began corrupting/rotting/sucking everything out of a target deity.
quote:
In any event, Moander may have once been a more benign god (perhaps a druid god representing plants and herbs, medicines, and healing or some such) wherever he originated, tormented into insane hateful malignance over a centuries-long rotting transformation. If left unchecked, would the disease/weapon have fully transformed Tyche into an über-Beshaba goddess of rotten luck? Moander's attempt to reunify Tyche (in Tymora's Luck) suggests (to me) that the "disease" is motivated to spread.
I like this conception.
quote:
The Darkbringer might even be a more cosmic malign entity whose consciousness spans across every world his infestation touches, something akin to Zerg in StarCraft. Moander might be as much a puppet of this rotten overmind as are the lesser creatures who are infected by his corrupt seeds.
Which begs the question... Is there a Realms equivalent of the Protoss, who would attempt to cleanse infected worlds/Material Planes of the Moander/Zerg corruption? Maybe this "hypothesised" race was responsible for the multiple banishments of Moander from Toril?
...
This entire discussion has really brought up a great many ideas that I'd like to cogitate further on. Expect more. Eventually. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 11:21:50
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I nominate those pesky elves to fill the "Protoss" Cosmic Darkbringer Exterminator role. They're conveniently located all over the bloody place and not above arrogantly meddling in the affairs of everybody elses' pantheons. The reclusive avariels and the mysterious star elves in particular seem like good candidates for continuing to carry out this ancient half-forgotten holy mission, though even the aquatics might serve an important role in detecting and halting the Darkbringer's rotting spread. Perhaps shambling mounds were once elves, so transfigured by malignant decay that they have fallen further away from salvation by the Seldarine than even the darkest drow?
Could the Darkbringer have been engineered by some incomprehensible agency in the Far Realms, escaped or ejected (perhaps even accidentally) upon the D&D cosmos? This idea seems a little unworkable but nicely Lovecraftian.
I like the idea of the Darkbringer being engineered in the Blood War (probably in the Abyss). It might even be a doomsday weapon that became uncontrolled once it achieved sentience then divinity. The fiends themselves may have largely forgotten the Darkbringer's origins. The idea of a contagious Darkbringer-rotten pit fiend is delightfully sadistic ... as would be forcing heroes to retrieve the means of curing/destroying it from somewhere in the deepest layers of the Infinite Abyss.
Dragons and draconic deities are also not above suspicion. They might even be divided, championing the fight both for and against the spreading contagion. A Moanderized dragon would be a nasty beast.
Banishing the Darkbringer is only marginally effective ... having achieved godhood, the Darkbringer can never be truly slain ... yet so long as it still lives, even weak and dormant, it continues to fester and spread like a cancer. It may well be that final extermination is virtually impossible; like Shar, the Darkbringer may have already left any number of infested worlds, races, and pantheons in its wake, rotted husks filled with heaving viscid unliving eternal filth and decay. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36974 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 14:38:37
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I like the idea of Moander having been engineered as a bio-weapon in the Blood War, but I also prefer the idea that it became uncontrolled. Maybe it was unleashed against one side, and as it was happily munching fiends, some deity decided to give it a hand and aim it at a demipower that said deity didn't like. The deity didn't expect Old Moe to succeed, just to weaken that opponent -- but Old Moe did indeed succeed, getting that first spark of divinity for itself.
And things went downhill from there, except for Old Moe. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 15:46:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe it was unleashed against one side, and as it was happily munching fiends, some deity decided to give it a hand ...
Hmmm. Talona, perhaps? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36974 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 16:10:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Maybe it was unleashed against one side, and as it was happily munching fiends, some deity decided to give it a hand ...
Hmmm. Talona, perhaps?
That works, but it could have been some deity that seriously predates her -- maybe even a since-fallen deity. It doesn't even have to be an evil deity, just one that had an enemy near where Old Moe was pulping and absorbing everything in his path. In fact, wouldn't it be a grand and dark irony if it was a good deity who did that particular aiming? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Mar 2011 16:12:52 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 16:15:44
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| Fascinating musings. Popular topic these days, it seems. I really like this idea that Moander was originally nothing more than a divine WMD, but somehow gained his own sentience. If Moander has been banished from the Realms on more than one occasion, it begs the question, is there something specific here that he is after and keeps coming back for? Or is it more likely that once having gained a foothold in any given Sphere he attempts to spread and consume all? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 19 Mar 2011 16:39:17 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2011 : 23:24:17
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| Even with access to divine intellect the Darkbringer still blindly follows some ancient instinct or programming, compelled to spread and consume like a rotting fire. Arguably "locked" within the limited viewpoint of serving its portfolio just like all the other gods. Perhaps it is constrained like all other deities; it cannot expand to another world until carried there and nurtured by the body and soul of a faithful mortal vessel. Alternately, there might already be countless Darkbringer seeds or spores drifting throughout the astral and phlogiston, dormant but ready to deliver their contagion to any world they touch ... the Darkbringer might conceivably take millennia or aeons to reach distant worlds. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2011 : 00:45:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
If Moander has been banished from the Realms on more than one occasion, it begs the question, is there something specific here that he is after and keeps coming back for? Or is it more likely that once having gained a foothold in any given Sphere he attempts to spread and consume all?
I've kind of approached this from a different way, by attempting to fathom "how/why" Moander's been continually banished in the past.
Consider what Ed has said previously in relation to Chauntea and the land. Essentially, we know that "Chauntea IS the land and all of its natural processes ..."
So, perhaps, maybe it is the land/Chauntea combination that almost routinely "attacks" and attempts to purge the land of the rotting touch of Moander -- with the intention of fully expelling the corruption. But some sliver of Moander's corruptive touch always remains... perhaps in the way of mortal servants infused with a portion of his rotting power. Or maybe it's simply the circumstance of rotted areas of vegetation that just never seem to properly heal, despite the best efforts of any druidic powers that are applied to them. So long as the corruption remains, Moander will always reclaim his power in the Realms, slowly growing with each and every step of corruptive influence.
Perhaps Moander wants to replace Chauntea as THE LAND. That may be why he keeps coming back. Imagine an entire world that has been corrupted from the inside out -- an entire Toril that has Moander's rot pulsing through the planet's "veins" and "arteries" -- natural process replaced by corruptive and unnatural processes. Each world-wound reveals a deeper sense of something rotten at the planet's core, as corruption spills, like water, from a fetid-swamp-like environment beneath. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2011 : 12:27:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Other scribes (Markus and Wooly, IIRC) have noted the similarities between Saurials and Dragonborn; I recall some non-canon suggestions for "merging" the two races to simplify lore.
Actually, I had two separate suggestions for the two very different races.
My first suggestion (way back when we only had those preview guides) was "why didn't they just use the Khaastas?" Not only do they look the same, it was fairly simple to connect all the lore together (INCLUDING the 3e Dragonborn lore, which is different then the 4e fluff). They were in Serpent Kingdoms, and in some earlier (2e?) supplement, have established FR lore and presence, and fit the bill they were looking for (without having to re-use the name of an existing creature!) It wasn't just re-inventing the wheel, it was like re-inventing the wheel after re-inventing the wheel AFTER re-inventing the wheel...
AND they added yet-another Serpent God in 4e. {heavy sigh}
My other suggestion was more along the lines of conjecture, regarduing the saurials, who are NOT completely from another world - only that one particular group were. There are native Saurials living in Malatra (The Living Jungle sub-setting), and they have always been there. My 'fix' for that was that the Saurials were part of the Sauroid Creator Race, which had several sub-groups, and only one of which was the Sarrukh. Pure conjecture, mind you (based on the fact that we seem to have two different canon groups of Saurials that happen to be physically identical).
My theory is that the Sarrukh had risen to dominance within the Sauroid society, and had subjugated their fellow Sauroids, except for at least one group that escaped into the east (which became the Malatran Saurials). When Ao did his thing and split the worlds asunder, it wasn't just to keep the gods apart, it was also to seperate many of the mortal races that had joined in the war and were at each other's throats. Hence, the saurials were all (accept for that one hidden group) swept up and placed on Abeir.
I like the idea of the Saurial homeworld being Abeir, because it gives us a nice retro-active connection, and it fits: in the novels, the brief glimpse we had of it was a world dominated by dragons... sounds a bit like Abeir, no?
Also, Elminster's magic didn't seem to be weakened by his sudden 'kidnapping' and being dumped there, which leads me to believe some part of the Weave must have extended to Abeir (which is a rather remote and tentative connection, since we don't know if the Weave extended to Abeir... even though the Spellplague had rather obvious effects on the place).
So, my ideas were to connect the new Dragonborn to the Khaastas, and connect the Saurials to the Sarrukh. In that way, we could also have gotten a new influx of Saurials in 4e as well.
Lore should always be additive in nature, NOT subtractive.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Mar 2011 12:35:33 |
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Bootravsky
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2012 : 20:52:22
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I just found this thread, and felt it might be worthwhile to throw out some of my own opinions on saurials.
My first thought was that Moander didn't bring the entirety of these people to Faerun, but instead only those he felt could only be corrupted in Faerun - his base of power. My vague recollection was that most of the corrupted saurials were good, they had just been mind-controlled by Moander. OR he was preparing for a massive forced exodus back to Faerun, since his control of the species was incomplete. I'm just operating under the assumption he was incapable of controlling them completely, since that creates some interesting tension for those attempting to liberate the saurials on their homeworld.
Following on that, if these aren't the entirety of the saurials, it allows for a substantial expansion of the race. Some new species off the top of my head:
Shieldback: Defenders of the community, adventuring shieldbacks tend to be the "tank" cleric build. Less intelligent ones are known as club heads. Anchylosaurus is the base dinosaur.
Daggerfoot: Likely to be rogues, assassins, or swash-buckling fighters, daggerfoot are one of the carnivorous species: as such, they are looked on with disdain and mistrust from the shieldback, hornhead, and bladebacks. Dinonychus or velociraptor (perhaps a smaller species).
Longtooth: Another carnivorous species, longtooth saurials appears to be natural fighters, but instead tend towards showy magician classes (evoker and such). While blessed with a mouth full of natural weaponry, and also tending towards large in size, they also have spindly arms that limits their effectiveness in melee combat. Tyrannosaurus build.
Sabermouth: Yet another carnivorous species, the sabermouuth are similar to the Longtooth, but are smaller in size and possess longer, more effective arms. They are almost always fighters, and tend to be impetuous fighters at that. Allosaurus build.
Bladehand: While possessed of several erect sharp claws on their hands, these gentle herbivorous saurials tend towards the "rank and file" commoner status. Similar to the horn head, they are likely to fill almost any rank in an adventuring company, though they are least likely to be rogues. Iguanadon build.
Longneck: Comprising a vast range of similarly large, long-necked, thick-bodied, small-headed saurials, the longnecks are almost always druids or priests of nature deities. Their size makes them almost completely inadequate as rogues, but they are occasionally effective fighters, due to their sheer bulk. In his cruelly ironic fashion, Moander's most faithful servants on the saurial homeworld were longnecks. Brachiosaurus, apatosaurus, diplodocus, etc.
there could also be room for some of these species to have aquatic subspecies (i.e. long-necks, dagger tooth, etc.)
Another thought: at one time, the saurials were predominant on Toril (or perhaps Abeir-Toril) but had died off in a massive event, perhaps to do with the rise or fall of the creator species. As most gods had not yet been created, their souls were claimed by Ubtao in the Forbidden Plateau along with the souls of the dinosaurs. While consumed with resisting a planar incursion by Eshowdow whilst maintaining vigil over Dendar the Night Serpent, Ubtao reincarnated a number of his saurial petitioners, allowing them to act as ambassadors to the gods of the Torilian pantheon, and thence allowing them to populate a new, alternate world with these faiths. The deities followed suit by acknowledging their debt towards Ubtao for staving off the night serpent. Unfortunately, Ubtao did not account for the dark deities following in the wake of the more virtuous (or neutral) fellows. Hence, the rise of Moander on the saurial "homeworld."
Finally, a random thought: I find the visual of hornheads adding to and twisting their horns and mantle as they gain power or stature, such that they go from appearing like triceratops to looking like styracosaurus. |
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Dragonborn/Saurials?
