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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Oct 2004 : 07:59:28
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| Well, I can tell you, I was likely the least nervous person turning in his or her work for public disection. That was because, regardless of what happened in the class, I knew that I had a base of support here, at Candlekeep -- and your collected opinion means more to me than any grade from this class. Even if many of you who have read the D&D version won't be reading this piece any time in the forseeable future. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2004 : 08:04:10
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Perhaps I should follow your example then, and try posting those small parts in forums that deal with the themes from my story. At least then, I could as you say, develop a base of support.
I definitely cannot post them here though, as it has very little to do with the Realms... 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2004 : 08:07:57
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Simple solution, then. Start a temporary Yahoo! Group, post it there, and we can comment.
In fact, I might do that for the people I wanted to send this item to, except of course it wouldn't have an ounce of public access. Invite only, members-only archieve, etc. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2004 : 08:11:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Simple solution, then. Start a temporary Yahoo! Group, post it there, and we can comment.
In fact, I might do that for the people I wanted to send this item to, except of course it wouldn't have an ounce of public access. Invite only, members-only archieve, etc.
A superb idea  .
Now, all I need is a name for the story... 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2004 : 09:53:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
There were two who made similar mistakes. The first said it was taking place in Europe. Of course, she also wears a pendant with the Wiccan symbol for evil magic (upside-down star-in-a-circle), so I don't consider her too bright. (The symbol was supposed to be right-side-up, but she'd disconnected the chain from the loop to turn it all the way around, so it was deliberate.)
Oh, that kind of person...   
Forget what I said... and find another workshop!!!  |
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macabail
Acolyte
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2004 : 16:27:49
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Bookwyrm & Sage
If either of you want, I work as an editor for various D&D companies, as a volunteer, but if you'd like I'll take a pass over your works. I can't guarantee that it would be fast, since the next month is somewhat busy for me, but I can definitely do it by the new years.
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Macabail the Phoenix |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2004 : 05:44:33
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quote:
Originally posted by macabail
Bookwyrm & Sage
If either of you want, I work as an editor for various D&D companies, as a volunteer, but if you'd like I'll take a pass over your works. I can't guarantee that it would be fast, since the next month is somewhat busy for me, but I can definitely do it by the new years.
I'm not sure about the Bookwyrm, but I'll definitely put you on my "to-consider" list once my work is fully completed to my satisfaction. I appreciate your offer...  It would certainly be an interesting step in the process, that is for sure.
Thanks again .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2004 : 06:41:53
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quote:
Originally posted by macabail
Bookwyrm & Sage
If either of you want, I work as an editor for various D&D companies, as a volunteer, but if you'd like I'll take a pass over your works. I can't guarantee that it would be fast, since the next month is somewhat busy for me, but I can definitely do it by the new years.
Thanks for the offer, but not only do I not have anything ready, I also can't do D&D work. Or d20. Not with Jack, anyway; if I get some other ideas and start writing on them, I'll let you know. Again, thanks. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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macabail
Acolyte
Canada
15 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2004 : 16:21:09
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Bookwyrm,
I was only refering to my D&D stuff as a means of explaining that I did have editing experience, not because I was implying that you would, or should involved D&D in your work.
Cheers, |
Macabail the Phoenix |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2004 : 16:36:05
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quote:
Originally posted by macabail
Bookwyrm,
I was only refering to my D&D stuff as a means of explaining that I did have editing experience, not because I was implying that you would, or should involved D&D in your work.
Cheers,
Fortunately I took that into consideration when replying earlier. For you see, my work has little relation to established D&D concepts.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2004 : 18:54:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by macabail
Bookwyrm,
I was only refering to my D&D stuff as a means of explaining that I did have editing experience, not because I was implying that you would, or should involved D&D in your work.
Cheers,
Fortunately I took that into consideration when replying earlier. For you see, my work has little relation to established D&D concepts.
First, are you Bookwyrm? I ask because this appears plausible in light of you replying to a post macabail wrote specifically to Bookwyrm.
And second... I am tempted to think that your answer implies that his editing work with D&D does not make him qualified to help you with non-D&D themes? I certainly hope I am wrong, for I have seen some of his work, and know him to be not only a great storymaker and game designer, but a very avid reader, well-versed in many genre (not only Science-Fiction and Fantasy literature) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2004 : 03:50:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by macabail
Bookwyrm,
I was only refering to my D&D stuff as a means of explaining that I did have editing experience, not because I was implying that you would, or should involved D&D in your work.
Cheers,
Fortunately I took that into consideration when replying earlier. For you see, my work has little relation to established D&D concepts.
First, are you Bookwyrm? I ask because this appears plausible in light of you replying to a post macabail wrote specifically to Bookwyrm.
No, I do not have that honour .
quote:
And second... I am tempted to think that your answer implies that his editing work with D&D does not make him qualified to help you with non-D&D themes? I certainly hope I am wrong, for I have seen some of his work, and know him to be not only a great storymaker and game designer, but a very avid reader, well-versed in many genre (not only Science-Fiction and Fantasy literature)
I'm sure that it is, and if you recall from my earlier statement, macabail has been placed on my "to-consider" list. I'll take all of his abilities into consideration once my story is completed. Then, when the time comes to submit the work for editing, I will decide upon three people who I feel are capable... and judging from your post, macabail more than qualifies.
It's just been my experience that sometimes, some editors can be a little quirky (no offense intended macabail, or to any editor who reads this ) when it comes to editing pieces of work that deal with themes they have very little knowledge about, at least more so than an editor whose usually reponsible for a particular genre or work that deals exclusively with the themes portrayed in the story.
- Factual Sage
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2004 : 04:00:30
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| . . . as I've noticed as well. Of course, I've already ranted on that subject, so I shouldn't need to go into it right now. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2004 : 05:42:32
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It’s Wednesday night, folks (well, it used to be), and time for my rant about the *#&$% professor I have for Creative Writing.
PDK, I’ve decided you’re completely right. She’s never read a fantasy novel.
If you haven’t guessed by now, I got the professor’s copy of my short story back tonight.
Grade: B-
For those of you not familiar with American grading systems, this is 7 on a scale of 0-12. Or, to be more true to how the system really works (anything below a C- isn’t a passing grade), it’s 4 out of 9. On her numerical grade, it’s 10 out of 20.
Shall I move from the numbers? Well, she said Jack is an uninteresting character. That, more than anything she’s written in the margins, has made me . . . rather pissed off.
If people are interested, I’ll tell you some of the stuff she said about it. Of course, some of it would have to wait. Some of this stuff in the margins looks like Linear B: possible to translate, but you need to really work at it. 
In the meantime, I’ll try to get around to creating a Yahoo! Group for a selected number of those who want to read the story.
Please don’t be offended if you are not on this future list. Unlike the story here, this is a section of a story I hope to publish (so long as this professor isn’t my editor!  ), so it will only go to people I know and trust. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2004 : 05:52:31
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She probably only likes to read smutty romances   |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2004 : 05:54:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Shall I move from the numbers? Well, she said Jack is an uninteresting character. That, more than anything she’s written in the margins, has made me . . . rather pissed off.
If people are interested, I’ll tell you some of the stuff she said about it. Of course, some of it would have to wait. Some of this stuff in the margins looks like Linear B: possible to translate, but you need to really work at it.
I'm interested; characterization is always fun to discuss. Did she elaborate on why she thinks Jack an uninteresting character? |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2004 : 06:47:20
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From what I can understand of what's written in the margins (anyone have thirty ranks of Decipher Script I can borrow?) she says he has no depth. She also says the duel wasn't a challenge for him. It's actually pretty important that it not be a challenge.
Now, I freely admit that I probably erred a bit in giving the full Jack -- he's made for a novel, not a short story, and people used to soap opera characters probably find him too mysterious. However, a lot of clues are there, if one just uses God-given brain cells. She kept going on and on about show-not-tell, which is something that I've known for years. Because of that, I scaled back even farther on giving the reader "extra" information than I did for the D&D story. (That is, plot information; there's actually more about Jack here than is given in a lot of the D&D version, and put together much better.)
What I'm irritated about is how she apparently didn't stop to think about what I mean. She even circled the term "fighting stance" and added a question mark -- who the *$# doesn't know what a fighting stance is? (Note: I'd like to use stronger language than "*$#" but this is a family forum . . . .) This after picking apart every assigned reading to get little scraps of what each writer means -- most of which is just conjecture. But she doesn't bother reading our stories more than once, and I'm not sure she spends much time even on the one reading.
I called my father to vent after I left the class. He couldn't believe it -- he'd liked it, and he can't stand fantasy normally. (He hasn't even read The Hobbit, much less The Lord of the Rings.) He actually got upset about it, which is surprising -- he's hardly an emotional person. (I once got him a poster of a bald eagle, with the caption "I AM smiling." It was the first time I'd ever seen him laugh out loud.) He said "I can't write fiction, but I hold four degrees, and I have some idea of what's good." In fact, I'd used him just for that, since I wanted a non-writer, non-fantasy-reader's opinion on the story before handing it in. My father is good on technique, even if he can't be entertaining to save anyone's life.
When someone says that a character you've been working on for over a year is "not engaging," "not interesting," "lacks depth," you have a tendancy to want to give up. I'm just glad I have all of you to fall back on. Otherwise, I'd probably be giving up entirely. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2004 : 12:32:28
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quote:
She also says the duel wasn't a challenge for him. It's actually pretty important that it not be a challenge.
Many people don't like reading about perfect characters who can do anything and win any fight. Sort of eliminates the whole idea of conflict and drama, and hey, she didn't get to read the whole thing, after all. If she can't see the parts where the character displays that he's human and he's got flaws, can you blame her for drawing conclusions?
quote:
Now, I freely admit that I probably erred a bit in giving the full Jack -- he's made for a novel, not a short story, and people used to soap opera characters probably find him too mysterious. However, a lot of clues are there, if one just uses God-given brain cells.
I'm sorry, but isn't that a little condescending? The fantasy genre is by no means "high literature." And while you may think that your character is distinguished from the common "soap opera" variety, you can't expect everyone to have seen all your writing notes and to see the character exactly the way you do. Not to mention that their difference of opinion doesn't mean they lack, or don't use, brain cells.
There's no good in wailing "But they don't understaaaaand my artistic genius!", you know.
quote:
She even circled the term "fighting stance" and added a question mark -- who the *$# doesn't know what a fighting stance is? (Note: I'd like to use stronger language than "*$#" but this is a family forum . . . .)
I only have the vaguest idea of what a fighting stance is, actually, not to mention that it differs from fighting style to fighting style.
quote:
When someone says that a character you've been working on for over a year is "not engaging," "not interesting," "lacks depth," you have a tendancy to want to give up. I'm just glad I have all of you to fall back on. Otherwise, I'd probably be giving up entirely.
I'm sure you're made of stronger stuff than that, but uh, isn't there a remote possibility that the professor may have had a point, and that she's an intelligent, well-read individual rather than a soap opera-loving plebe who can never comprehend the depth of your literary skills? |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2004 : 20:17:34
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Oh, she's well-read. Very well-read. But she has a huge bias that she claimed wasn't there. Based on what I've heard, asking other students, she only graded people well who had "quirky" or "artsy" stories. (One student had a story about life in a college dorm. She labled it "unrealistic." She apparently couldn't believe that people would bet on the outcome of a video game, which is, to our minds, a clue to how little she's thinking about this and/or how little she knows.)
She judges each story not on its own merit, but on her preconceptions of it. From what I can read of her Linear B writing, she didn't even pay attention to what I was writing. Most obviously, she wrote in her review that the planet Jack was on was called Jeldan. There is only one place in the story where that name appears, and it's the name of the city he's in.
If you don't know what a fighting stance is, then you haven't been paying attention to anything that has one. Have you seen boxing matches? Wrestling? Karate/te kwan do/judo/etc.? Obviously you've never seen fencing.
As for being made of stronger stuff, well, that's your opinion. I'm glad you think I'm that strong, especially considering how little you like me (or at the very least don't rave about me -- that's good, it means you'll never be a yesman, which keeps writers like me humble). In truth, I'm just another geeky, antisocial, skinny white guy with glasses, and if I didn't have an audience to back me up, I'd be going with the opinion of the supposed expert. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Wood Elf Ranger
Senior Scribe
USA
627 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 02:48:34
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How can someone not know what a fighting stance is? I mean, come on! Your getting ready to fight! You don't need to know the specifics of exactly what it looks like to see it with your imagination in your mind while your reading it. If you describe it out exactly what it looks like that would be tedious and not fun to read anyway.
Personally, this is just my point of view, but I think she just breezed through your paper and everyone elses and gave comments/grades based on how she perceives you in class. You know what I mean? A lot of teachers do this. |
~Lee N.
"Breaktime yes?!.. Yes?.. Maybe?.. Noo, baaack to work.." -Grovel the Goblin from NWN: HotU |
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Lysander
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 03:35:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wood Elf Ranger
Personally, this is just my point of view, but I think she just breezed through your paper and everyone elses and gave comments/grades based on how she perceives you in class. You know what I mean? A lot of teachers do this.
I agree. I don't know your professor, Bookwyrm, but I do remember the ones I had for Freshman English (those were the days ) and for the Writing Requirement class. Most especially, in Freshman English, the grad students, er, professors, teaching us had some quite definite preconceptions regarding interpretations (Specifically poetic interpretations, but this is not the place to go into how Frost's "Mending Walls" and the 1990s Mid-East developments go together) and when you step outside those preset boundaries, all sorts of vagarities ensue. That's not saying the grader is any less intellegent, and all (constructive) criticism should be welcomed. Whether or not you felt the criticsm was well-founded or not, you looked at them, and at your work, and then decided if something needed changing. The point is you double-checked something you might not otherwise have. |
Lysander
Defender of the Second Edition
Moderator, Project Gemengan, Worlds of D&D |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 04:30:18
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Well, it's only natural that you're defensive -- especially if this is the first time such comments have been made about your character. Since I don't know your professor, it might well be that what you're saying is honest-to-goodness truth. But while the "They don't understand me! They don't know anything!" attitude is tempting to take when faced with criticism, I hold the opinion that some gems can be found even in the harshest or seemingly ignorant comments. Step back and take a deep breath. There may be a valid point or two there that you haven’t considered before. Possibly the professor wasn't thorough; possibly it's because the story didn't grab her attention, and so she wanted to get it over with in one go -- it's a job, after all, not something she does for pleasure. (What, do you expect editors to read a manuscript in its entirety if the first few paragraphs don't grab their attention?)
I also find it more prudent to draw feedback from complete strangers rather than family members or RL friends. For obvious reasons. (Lack of interest, an inherent obligation to be nice -- I don't take my mom's "Your writing's wonderful!" very seriously. Regardless of how many degrees she holds.)
quote:
As for being made of stronger stuff, well, that's your opinion. I'm glad you think I'm that strong, especially considering how little you like me (or at the very least don't rave about me -- that's good, it means you'll never be a yesman, which keeps writers like me humble).
I don't dislike you as a person, no, especially considering that I don't know you very well. I'm just commenting on your, well, comments. Plus, I'm not easy to please, and incredibly hard to impress. I think the only thing I've raved about lately is a fanfic, and then only because I think it’s light-years superior to some of the professionally published stuff out there.
quote:
In truth, I'm just another geeky, antisocial, skinny white guy with glasses, and if I didn't have an audience to back me up, I'd be going with the opinion of the supposed expert.
Well, while a popular opinion may not always be the right one, it's good to keep in mind that a single person's opinion is just that -- a single person's. If many people start making the same comments, though, it might just be that, you know, they've got a point. And, also, I have a small audience. They give me fairly detailed, positive feedback on a regular basis. Doesn't mean I'll suddenly tell my beta-reader (read: editor, of sorts) to frag off, because "Look, there are five/six/eight people aligned against you, and they think my writing's perfectly fine, so your nitpicking has to be wrong, wrong, wrong! You're just biased and mean and inattentive! Shut up, shut up, shut up!" |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 05:14:10
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So everyone who complains about something is childish, then? According to you, I'm a mental five year old who's whining about someone not liking my literary equivilant of a crayon drawing.
I always grade myself low so that I won't, at the least, be disapointed. I was expecting a B+ at the least. I fulfilled every point she wanted in the story. With what I'm going through for this class, I expect her to read every paper carefully. She did not. And so I'm unreasoning in disliking this verdict?
Let me point out the fatal flaw in your analogy. You trust your beta reader. I do not trust, much less like, this professor. As such, I take the opinions of those that I do trust and like over hers. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 05:34:39
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quote:
So everyone who complains about something is childish, then?
No, but how one complains may make him/her seem childish. As I said, I don't know your professor or how your creative writing course works, but I'm also only seeing one side of the story. You've painted your professor as a shallow and careless cow. As well, you seem to hold the opinion that anyone who doesn't see things the way you do is either ignorant or inattentive (such as your response to my comment about my having only the vaguest idea of what a fighting stance is).
So...
'Course, I haven't seen this short story in question, either.
quote:
Let me point out the fatal flaw in your analogy. You trust your beta reader. I do not trust, much less like, this professor. As such, I take the opinions of those that I do trust and like over hers.
Granted, I have a certain advantage -- my beta is doing what he does because he likes my writing, as opposed to the task being a paid job. (Love your beta, cherish your beta.) If you don't trust her opinion, though, then why would it have made you "want to give up"? Besides, I want to ask -- has anyone here, aside from me, made a single negative comment about your fanfic (as it is posted in this thread, I mean)? Any comment that isn't a shining praise? And when I don't rave all over your work, it equates to "how little" I like you? |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 05:42:50
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Okay, now who's jumping to conclusions?
You never said anything negative about this story. I'd remember, because was waiting for it. I was really quite surprised when you didn't say anything, so I figured you simply hadn't taken the time to read it all the way through. (You did say you hadn't studied it for errors, and I know there are some. This story wasn't made for a grade, so I've been lazy while writing it.)
No, what I was referring to was the vague dislike I've sensed from you when we speak on other topics, like back when you were going on about how Ed Greenwood can't write. About the only thing we agreed on for a very long time was the fact that Tolkein needed a touch of consistancy in dialogue styles (though you might have had other complaints about the books). |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2004 : 09:39:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
You never said anything negative about this story. I'd remember, because was waiting for it. I was really quite surprised when you didn't say anything, so I figured you simply hadn't taken the time to read it all the way through. (You did say you hadn't studied it for errors, and I know there are some. This story wasn't made for a grade, so I've been lazy while writing it.)
Actually--
Never mind.
quote:
No, what I was referring to was the vague dislike I've sensed from you when we speak on other topics, like back when you were going on about how Ed Greenwood can't write. About the only thing we agreed on for a very long time was the fact that Tolkein needed a touch of consistancy in dialogue styles (though you might have had other complaints about the books).
Ha. I still hold the same view about EG, actually, but if you did sense any dislike from me, then I apologize, because that was hardly my intention. Oh, well, this by itself isn't an issue for me, anyway. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Jack Archer of Earth
