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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 01:30:20
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1E had Potion Miscibility rules. 2E had simpler Potion Compatibility rules. 3E and later did not.
Basically - drinking two magical potions (or drinking a potion while another is still in effect) forces the DM to cackle with glee as he "secretly" rolls d100 and consults a nasty little table. Many of the possible results are detrimental, some mixtures become lethal poisons or explosions. Most results involve one or both potions operating with only partial effect. A few results are beneficial. Of particular interest, a roll of 00 (100) produces this:quote:
1E DMG
DISCOVERY! The admixture of the two potions has caused a special formula which will cause one of the two potions only to function, but its effects will be permanent upon the imbiber. (Note that some harmful side effects could well result from this. . . )
2E DMG
Discovery. The mixing of the potions creates a special effect only one of the potions will function, but its effects upon the imbiber are permanent. (Note that some harmful side effects could well result from this, at the DM's discretion.)
3.5E optional rules - Wizards archive
Discovery. The mixing of the potions creates a special effect one of the potions chosen at random fails to work, but the other has its effects made permanent on the drinker. If mixed externally, then the permanent effect is not discovered until the mix is consumed. The potion's effect becomes a spell-like ability that is always on for the drinker.
(For those among us, like myself, who are somewhat unfamiliar with non-metric/SI measures: 1 fluid ounce = roughly 30mL.)
The Wizards article is the best of the three versions (it could even be imported into 4E). Countless fan-created versions also exist. The results are completely unpredictable (unless one has multiple potions made from exactly the same formula), but they're caused by alchemy, not wild magic.
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[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Mar 2011 01:30:45
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 01:34:44
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| I seem to recall that one of the editions offered 150 percent effect, however that might be from the table you refer to? |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 01:37:41
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I posted this because I recently rolled a DISCOVERY.
One of my players drank potions of invulnerability and ogre strength. I force myself to accept random rolls (it adds interest to the game) ... and permanent invulnerability (that is, immune to normal/nonmagical weapons and 2-point AC bonus) is quite über, at least in my game.
So I'll accept it but focus on the fine details in the 1E/2E rules. Does anyone have any ideas for "harmful side effects" which would be appropriate and balancing? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 01:39:19
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| Kentinal Yes, higher rolls indicate better results on these tables, and the better results increase the potency of one or both potions. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 01:49:24
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Invulnerability was the lesser of two evils, given the choices?
I think the strength would have been easier for most adversaries to overcome (how many orcs and other monster-types have magical weapons?)
Anyhow, easy - he's heavy. As in, REAL HEAVY (his mass has increased dramatically)
Can't sit in chairs, when he is 'upstairs' in a wooden structure, the floors creak ominously. Can't swim - sinks like a stone. A horse won't carry him. Etc, etc, etc.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 01:53:30
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Harmful effects:
To balance is always hard.
In part it depends on class.
I could see strength or dexterity reduction to offset the bonuses, however it should not be point for point.
There could be requirement to have to eat twice as much as normal or suffer effects of lack of food.
Tell us class and better ideas should be forthcoming. *S* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 02:09:57
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Invulnerability was the randomly determined result. I'm disciplined about sticking with random results (unless they destroy the entire party/story/game for no good reason); my thinking is that I simply won't roll dice when certain outcomes are predestined or necessary. I fully expect the PC (a dwarven skald) to use and abuse his newfound invulnerability at every opportunity.
I'm already musing over the notion of eventually making him an involuntary participant in somebody's unethical magical research.
But what I'm really seeking are some "harmful side effects" which seem logical and interesting yet don't nerf the invulnerability. It's only fair since over the years this same table has caused numerous minor poisonings, two lethal ones, and even a rather inconvenient explosion.
I don't know of any spell which duplicates this invulnerability exactly, though many 3rd-5th level spells have similar effects (and don't list any incidental side effects). Here's a similar question: does the stoneskin spell cause the recipient's skin to harden, increase in density, or take on the appearance and texture of stone? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 02:33:25
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Arik You might want to look at artifact for possible penalties. I do not know of any chart that offers the "harmful effects" these always appear to be left to the DM.
You want balance, but had a few deaths maybe the penalty should not be that high compared to the the bonus. I still would consider something like having to eat more at minimum, if you strike at Dex or Ste, heck for that matter any stat reduced can tend to balance a found power.
I certainly can see the potion draining a stat, if not more then one. Maybe Con gets drained a point because of the magic coursing though the body bringing the change is much like being raised from the dead (only that no system shock roll required).
There are many ways to look for adverse effects, your goal is to make it more understandable, if I read you correctly. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 02:35:03
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He has bad joints, like steriod users.
Penalty on his dex due to arthritis and joint pain
and some such. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 03:07:01
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As mentioned above, the PC is a dwarven skald. What this means is that he's hard to kill and also nearly immune to a small variety of spells.
I'm a bit averse to penalizing attribute scores. Normal use of the potion does not inflict those penalties. Nor do protective spells and scrolls which have similar effects. Other potions with permanent effects (potion of longevity, elixir of youth, great elixir) do not impose penalties. I've seen numerous modules wherein potion effects can become permanent (Ruins of Greyhawk has several such things), without inflicting any adverse effects.
I do like the idea of the PC permanently radiating strong abjuration magic, that's good.
Since this is effectively a potion permanently coursing through the PC's veins, it would be unwise for him to ever again drink another potion of any kind (ie: roll on mixing table each time). Not only the usual risks, but also a fair chance that the invulnerability - as one of the two potions - could be lost or reduced in effect. (Then again, there's always a 1% chance of another DISCOVERY, lol.)
The 2-point AC bonus suggests that the imbiber's flesh becomes a bit hard and dense, comparable to leather armour (AC 8). I think this would reduce the PC's tactile sensitivity; ie, he may be much less sensitive to touch, pressure, heat/cold, or minor injuries. The sorts of penalties that wouldn't be seen during use of the potion (in combat), but would instead become evident (and perhaps even worse) over time.
I'll take a look at the various artifact rules. Thanx for your advice, guys.  |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 04:03:31
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The comic book Rising Stars had a character who was invulnerable... His particular invulnerability was essentially a force field that extended no further than his skin.
Despite his invulnerability, he wasn't particularly strong or fast or anything.
And because of the invulnerability, he couldn't feel anything -- literally nothing, because nothing could actually touch his skin. Denied physical sensations, he overloaded on one of the remaining senses: taste. He wanted to be a cop, but couldn't pass the physical because of his weight. And so he became a rent-a-cop, until someone killed him -- by suffocating him with a plastic bag.
Hopefully that will give you some thoughts towards dealing with permanent invulnerability.  |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 05:07:45
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| I'm thinking the character will, over time, increase in mass and density. He might look like a typical dwarf yet weigh ~50% heavier (lol, which will eventually put him over 500lbs when counting armour/weapons/etc). For the record, he already refuses to ride horses and (surprisingly) cannot swim. He may be immune to common weapons and spells, but he can easily drown. Alas, dispel magic is one of the spells to which he is nearly impervious. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 05:13:55
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| A dwarven "unbreakable." |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 05:32:12
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My players and I have long noticed that over the passing years a sort of "pseudonatural selection" kills off all the weak PCs; harsh conditions force the surviving species to adapt. Perhaps this invulnerable magic-resistant dwarf is simply the next link in the PC evolutionary chain ...
Quite remarkable for a level 6 character, eh? My newest cruel thought: I shall attempt to equip him with a cursed item of berserking. I'll let the players figure out (and demonstrate) his vulnerabilities for me. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 06:08:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'm thinking the character will, over time, increase in mass and density. He might look like a typical dwarf yet weigh ~50% heavier (lol, which will eventually put him over 500lbs when counting armour/weapons/etc). For the record, he already refuses to ride horses and (surprisingly) cannot swim. He may be immune to common weapons and spells, but he can easily drown. Alas, dispel magic is one of the spells to which he is nearly impervious.
Drowning, gases, poison, starvation/dehydration, extremes of temperature (being invulerable won't do much for you if you're encased in ice!)... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 06:29:28
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I wouldn't penalize for future potions though...the change in him shouldn't rely on a potion still being in his system...it should be permanent.
As for how to deal with it: Shandril had a unique gift that many wanted! Your dwarf, being invulnerable will eventually get a reputation...one he may NOT want to have.
Essentially, many wizards might be interested in his body for use as a host after using Magic Jar (or some other evil).
If you ever get tired of it...and the enemy of the party does too...they might invest in a magical item that will negate his invulnerability forever...sort of a Disjunction effect aimed at the dwarf.
If he was a turd before that happens...unfortunately for him he still has the reputation of being invulnerable...so folks might want to to still capture him!
Directly how it works in him could be that he must continue to fuel his invulnerability by consuming some of the materials that were part of the potion! Eating rocks, or gems, could be a neat adverse reaction. I mean, Vampires consume blood... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 06:42:37
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quote:
Drowning, gases, poison, starvation/dehydration, extremes of temperature (being invulerable won't do much for you if you're encased in ice!)...
2E character Eusdrian (mountain) dwarf, 19 Con, 68hp (at level 6), AC -4 (dwarven plate, shield +1, boots of striding and springing, invulnerability), hand axe of quickness, ring of vampiric regeneration, dwarven resistances, skald spell immunities, and now immune to nonmagical attacks. Damned hard to kill. Typically teleported into the midst of enemy formations by one of the party mages. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 06:50:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Drowning, gases, poison, starvation/dehydration, extremes of temperature (being invulerable won't do much for you if you're encased in ice!)...
2E character Eusdrian (mountain) dwarf, 19 Con, 68hp (at level 6), AC -4 (dwarven plate, shield +1, boots of striding and springing, invulnerability), hand axe of quickness, ring of vampiric regeneration, dwarven resistances, skald spell immunities, and now immune to nonmagical attacks. Damned hard to kill. Typically teleported into the midst of enemy formations by one of the party mages.
Promptly have the enemy overwhelm him, tie him up, and carry him off.  He doesn't have to be subdued to be "subdued" and tied up.
First time the party complains...just look at them and say "Really? REALLY?! You can teleport him into the middle of the enemy...and how often have you tried this?" |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 07:52:59
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| And to think the only reason the player "chose" a dwarf was because that's what reincarnation produced. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 11:47:30
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| I look at it like the critical hits table. A fun optional rule that bogs down the game when used but can result in excessively favorable or unfavorable results which CAN increase the fun factor of the game, depeding on the group. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 12:22:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Drowning, gases, poison, starvation/dehydration, extremes of temperature (being invulerable won't do much for you if you're encased in ice!)...
2E character Eusdrian (mountain) dwarf, 19 Con, 68hp (at level 6), AC -4 (dwarven plate, shield +1, boots of striding and springing, invulnerability), hand axe of quickness, ring of vampiric regeneration, dwarven resistances, skald spell immunities, and now immune to nonmagical attacks. Damned hard to kill. Typically teleported into the midst of enemy formations by one of the party mages.
How does any of this make him immune to the stuff I posted? I'm assuming that's why it's all been lined thru... |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 18:14:56
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In practical terms it means he has excellent saves and checks against damage caused by these sorts of things. Dwarven endurance and vampiric regeneration mean that his pool of hit points can stretch out long enough to make starvation/dehydration/etc less threatening; yes these things could eventually kill him, but it would take so long that his allies would always have enough time to assist.
Besides, slow starvation is not a pretty end and it's hardly fit for any sort of hero. What kind of sadistic bastard DM would allow a TPK through hunger? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 18:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Besides, slow starvation is not a pretty end and it's hardly fit for any sort of hero. What kind of sadistic bastard DM would allow a TPK through hunger?
Depends. If the Players are stupid enough to get themselves caved in a well or something or some other situation where there is no food, then it becomes fitting . |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 19:01:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
In practical terms it means he has excellent saves and checks against damage caused by these sorts of things. Dwarven endurance and vampiric regeneration mean that his pool of hit points can stretch out long enough to make starvation/dehydration/etc less threatening; yes these things could eventually kill him, but it would take so long that his allies would always have enough time to assist.
Besides, slow starvation is not a pretty end and it's hardly fit for any sort of hero. What kind of sadistic bastard DM would allow a TPK through hunger?
Excellent saves are not immunity.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 19:08:53
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| Incidentally, ye olde dwarven skald eventually lost his invulnerability ... I simply ruled that "permanent" was (in this case) really only 2d6 months, the PC had a lot of fun with it, and the game moved on ... we all agreed that it was just powerful for mid-level campaigning so it was removed before causing any "permanent" damage. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 19:29:05
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| LOL |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 20:44:57
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| -You know, I've never even thought of mixing potions before. Next time I play in a game, I might try it. I'm not too big of a fan of the game, so I don't particularly run the character near and dear to my heart, and the DM is one of those "absolutely everything by the books" type of guys, so if the opportunity arises, it'll be interesting to see where things go. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2012 : 22:07:59
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| About 50% of the time you basically "waste" or fizzle one or both potions. About half the remainder function well, the other half tend to be poisonous or explosive or corrosive things you'd wish you never drank. Only the percentile extremes generate these really noteworthy results - "discovery" on one extreme, "explosion" which probably kills imbiber and everyone nearby on the other extreme. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 00:06:14
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Great find Ayrik. I'm surprised I haven't done something like this in my Realms game(s) already.
Have you ever experimented with potions going haywire or providing unexpected boosts when a character already has active spells on their person? Something like spells and potions of the same school of magic where the one with the higher duration is lessened and the one with the lesser duration is increased (in terms of effect)...that sort of thing? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 15:01:21
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My players used to attempt to experiment quite avidly with such stuff, back in the early days.
But after years and years of being poisoned, sickened, cursed, poisoned again, polymorphed, exploded, and suffering a variety of truly grotesque alchemical fates better left undescribed ... their enthusiasm for the chance of a obtaining a DISCOVERY! has dwindled rather sharply. Imagine drinking two "inert" or beneficial magical liquids, then learning that they combine into battery acid or scorpion venom (or living scorpions!) or a lump of troll flesh or liquid pyrotechnics.
Potion miscibility at my table is now generally considered a Dumb Idea to which one resorts only in moments of true desperation (which actually makes it a Really Dumb Idea). The Potion Miscibility Table is one of those things my players half-pretend doesn't exist and prefer to not draw attention towards (unless being spiteful towards each other), it is basically viewed as just another weapon in the DM's arsenal of antagonism.
[Edit: corrected mistypo] |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 24 May 2012 21:58:10 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2012 : 18:15:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Imagine drinking two "insert" or beneficial magical liquids, then learning that they combine into battery acid or scorpion venom (or living scorpions!) or a lump of troll flesh or liquid pyrotechnics.
That's pretty awesome.
Do you remember by any chance which combination of potions led to the troll flesh?
Seems like a great adventure of hook, one of the "why are nobles suddenly being torn in half from the inside by trolls?" variety. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Mixing potions
