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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
360 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 19:45:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Watching speculation, rumor and opinion get molded around the recollections of a handful of people to form some kind of one-sided WotC forum mythology makes for interesting reading.
It’s interesting to see the practical limits of how much any one person can truly know about what goes on in a large forum of anonymous users.
The most fascinating part has been watching Therise transform the “gang” (as Markus puts it) into something that existed even before it existed*.
While it’s true there was a lot of back and forth battles on the WotC novel forums, the idea that not even the tiniest bit of negativity could be written about Realms novels without some sort of harsh, coordinated user response is, with all respect due, not true.
I’m interested in seeing just how far this thing can go.
Reminds me of Robin Hood’s Merry Men or Doonesburry’s Red Rascal, where if something happened out of the ordinary the common person automatically attributes it to the bandits.
I don't think they were saying that every troll and flamer was part of a coordinated plot, just that there most definetly was at least one very outspoken clique that did indeed cause a lot of the flame wars. It's 5-6 years ago since I last took much interest in the Wizards forum but as I read Therise's post, I can very easily put names to the personalities she is describing. Is that myth making? Maybe. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 19:49:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Watching speculation, rumor and opinion get molded around the recollections of a handful of people to form some kind of one-sided WotC forum mythology makes for interesting reading.
It’s interesting to see the practical limits of how much any one person can truly know about what goes on in a large forum of anonymous users.
The most fascinating part has been watching Therise transform the “gang” (as Markus puts it) into something that existed even before it existed*.
I'm not transforming anything. Those users existed and were very active during the novel "discussions" as you well know.
The fact that you later worked to organize them during the release of 4E... that's also a fact and not any kind of "transformation" on my part.
quote:
While it’s true there was a lot of back and forth battles on the WotC novel forums, the idea that not even the tiniest bit of negativity could be written about Realms novels without some sort of harsh, coordinated user response is, with all respect due, not true.
Spin it however you like, we both know the truth.
quote:
I’m interested in seeing just how far this thing can go.
Of course you are.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 20:04:38
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
I don't think they were saying that every troll and flamer was part of a coordinated plot, just that there most definitely was at least one very outspoken clique that did indeed cause a lot of the flame wars. It's 5-6 years ago since I last took much interest in the Wizards forum but as I read Therise's post, I can very easily put names to the personalities she is describing. Is that myth making? Maybe.
Oh, I think it is.
The theory that flame wars contributed to a decision by WotC to shut down their novel forums is sound.
What I'm getting at is that the claim that one group, however loosely aligned, caused the flame wars for the sake of stamping out negativity is about as one sided and imaginary as it gets; right up there with the best story a six year old kid can come up with during playtime.
Like you, I recall a set of very opinionated people who operated on the WotC forums around the time the novels were closed. Many of them didn’t like (that’s a nice way of saying “hated”) what WotC was doing, and who voiced their thoughts on matters Realms-related without much care for who they were bashing.
If someone like that walked into these forums, you’d get more than just the moderators responding to them. If several someones did it, you’d get flame wars.
In my opinion both sides, however you define them, bare responsibility for what happened. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 08 Mar 2011 20:06:46 |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 20:10:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I'm not transforming anything. Those users existed and were very active during the novel "discussions" as you well know.
Did they exist in a "gang" to try and stamp out all negativity, Therise?
Or are you already trying to walk back that claim? I appreciate this may be your honest point of view, but that's all it is...
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
The fact that you later worked to organize them during the release of 4E... that's also a fact and not any kind of "transformation" on my part.
Was wondering when you'd try and make this about me. There's always got to be a BBEG, right?  In fact, the more we talk about me, the less you have to defend your earlier statements...  |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 08 Mar 2011 20:15:18 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 20:21:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I'm not transforming anything. Those users existed and were very active during the novel "discussions" as you well know.
Did they exist in a "gang" to try and stamp out all negativity, Therise?
Or are you already trying to walk back that claim? I appreciate this may be your honest point of view, but that's all it is...
And... this is how you work. I say something, you take it out of context, I clarify, and then you suggest that I'm backpedaling. You are who you are, though. Ain't nothing gonna change ya!
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
The fact that you later worked to organize them during the release of 4E... that's also a fact and not any kind of "transformation" on my part.
Was wondering when you'd try and make this about me. There's always got to be a BBEG, right? In fact, the more we talk about me, the less you have to defend your earlier statements...
Are you denying that you organized them? Are you denying your agenda to censor negative comments, or the effort to "encourage" Lord Karsus to step down?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
360 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 20:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
I don't think they were saying that every troll and flamer was part of a coordinated plot, just that there most definitely was at least one very outspoken clique that did indeed cause a lot of the flame wars. It's 5-6 years ago since I last took much interest in the Wizards forum but as I read Therise's post, I can very easily put names to the personalities she is describing. Is that myth making? Maybe.
Oh, I think it is.
The theory that flame wars contributed to a decision by WotC to shut down their novel forums is sound.
What I'm getting at is that the claim that one group, however loosely aligned, caused the flame wars for the sake of stamping out negativity is about as one sided and imaginary as it gets; right up there with the best story a six year old kid can come up with during playtime.
Like you, I recall a set of very opinionated people who operated on the WotC forums around the time the novels were closed. Many of them didn’t like (that’s a nice way of saying “hated”) what WotC was doing, and who voiced their thoughts on matters Realms-related without much care for who they were bashing.
If someone like that walked into these forums, you’d get more than just the moderators responding to them. If several someones did it, you’d get flame wars.
In my opinion both sides, however you define them, bare responsibility for what happened.
I agree. Both positive and negative camps had their quota of trolls and "Bernard of Clairvauxs" who would attack anyone for daring to not share their opinion. Most posters ended up caught in the middle. But to say there wasn't a concerted effort by certain people to oust some of the "moderates" would I disagree with entirely. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 20:39:30
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
Most posters ended up caught in the middle.
This to me is what’s most regrettable about that time.
quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
But to say there wasn't a concerted effort by certain people to oust some of the "moderates" would I disagree with entirely.
I suppose we'd have to agree to disagree here.
I have to admit my forum history knowledge isn't nearly as all encompassing as I'd like it to be (though for some unfortunate reason my desire to rehash forum drama never seems to go away).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 20:50:51
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Let us please not have any more drama than we've already got. The current drama levels are more than high enough.
Not directing this at any one person, just trying to make sure things don't get problematic.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 20:53:52
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| [edit: just saw Wooly's warning. Apologies Wooly; post deleted.] |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 08 Mar 2011 21:47:56 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 21:19:02
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I SERIOUSLY hope I'm not getting lumped-into this.
I didn't become a regular at the WotC forums (I lurked for several years) until AFTER novel-discussions were no longer allowed. From the moment I first started posting I was told "do not discuss novels".
ERGO, I had absolutely nothing to do with that part of the drama. The only time I remember novel-discussions being allowed was toward the end, which I already mentioned, but by that time it had become too late.
At first we were only allowed to discuss the lore contained within them, and then slowly, we were allowed to offer opinions, so long as they weren't personal attacks, and had some intelligent reasoning behind them (you couldn't just say "That novel sucked!" - you had to list specific aspects you had issues with, and what those issues were). At that point, I really thought things were getting better.
And THAT occurred post-4e release, AFTER all the backlash about the new setting and rules, and by that time tempers were so high it was hard to stay within the boundaries set without a thread devolving into another 'edition war'.
I don't have anything against someone who says "I LOVE 4e" (be it FR or rules), unless they are purposely posting to "rub our noses in it" (and there were a couple like that). People who always had it in for FR, and were glad the setting got nuked. Those types were far and few between - most of the drama revolved around people who had always enjoyed FR, from the beginning, which makes it all the sadder.
What I do have issues with is someone who tells me I should just take whatever scraps are offered, PAY FOR IT (weather I think it is quality or not), and just shut my trap and deal with it. I cannot let a company know the I am unhappy with the direction they are going in? How do we get them to change their course? The 'vote with your wallets' method simply wasn't working fast enough (although I have a strong feeling it is finally starting to kick-in).
I do not begrudge anyone for enjoying the new material, so why do I have to take flack for saying I don't enjoy it? THAT is precisely what was going on the last couple of years over at the WotC boards.
I tried going back a couple of months ago, when I started the Nentir/FR conversion map. It came up on one of their threads that such a thing would be 'very hard to do', because of all of FR's previous lore. I argued that it wasn't hard at all, if you imagine that Nentir Vale was a locale on Abeir that got transposed with a place in the Realms.
You know I got attacked for that? On the WotC forums, DEFENDING 4e core material being placed in the Forgotten Realms.
Nothing has changed - I couldn't believe the attitudes. The setting-divisiveness is still there, with people taking sides, which is just bizarre, since the core-setting is supposedly a 'non-setting'. There I was, using the catch-all 4e explanation for stuff, and getting attitude for it.
I don't need that. 
When you can't go on a GAME forum and discuss how to improve your GAME, there is a HUGE problem. The feelings of entitlement haven't gone-away, they've just shifted around. There comes a point, I think, when a forum is 'too far gone', and it can't be saved. Let us hope that never happens here.
{Raises a mug to Ed Greenwood, and says a prayer for Gary} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 22:20:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I do not begrudge anyone for enjoying the new material, so why do I have to take flack for saying I don't enjoy it? THAT is precisely what was going on the last couple of years over at the WotC boards.
Hrm…I don’t remember that being a regular theme of anyone who was supportive of 4E or at least willing to give 4E a chance.
I do know that some of us were really tired of certain regulars repeatedly suggesting that it’d be great for the setting if certain WotC designers lost their jobs*.
We were also tired of regulars spamming some version of “the 4E Realms sucks” in every single thread, then watching as the forum regulars (including the forum lead) fought aggressively to support “the right” of those users to post unconstructive, unhelpful, off-topic and otherwise useless comments (read: spam).
Speaking of Forum Leads, I recall Lord Karsus stating unequivocally that Volo’s Guide to Cormyr would be incompatible with the 4E Realms.
Really, the pendulum of anti-4E Realms commentary swung from evil, to patently annoying, to bizarre.
But if you said something as simple as, “I don’t like the 4E Realms” in a thread where like/dislike was the actual topic, were you sure to be viciously attacked in public for it? No, I have to disagree with Markus, you weren't sure to be attacked.
Can’t speak for PMs, of course.
Watching this thread develop has been disheartening. I’m sure several of my fellow scribes are speaking from their hearts, but when I think about what went on in the forums during the 3E to 4E transition vs. some of the comments I’ve seen in this scroll about that time period, I can’t help but view those comments as revisionist history.
*There may be 8 billion some-odd people in the world, each a unique little snowflake with their own precious opinions, but saying something evil about living, breathing human beings on a public forum is wrong. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 08 Mar 2011 22:32:17 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 22:36:24
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Just figured out that all scroll/threads that are of this topic end the same way. Sealed, closed, and alot of old wounds opened up.
I could care less about the anti-4e camp or the pro 3e camp.
I am PRO FORGOTTEN REALMS!
I have no more to add to this scroll. It's turned into two scribes with axes to grind from 3 years ago playing revisionist history. WE WERE ALL AT FAULT!
Have fun arguing in circles some things never change... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 22:37:31
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I suppose, in retrospect, there was on particualr designer I had it out for, but only because he stated "blame me for everything".
Which I did.
The 'Rich Baker must be Stopped' stuff was just funny as hell (I believe even Rich had a good laugh over that), and the 'Cordelhu' stuff was bad, but also light-hearted (for the most part).
But I plead 'guilty' in the case of one other, but only because...
Nevermind - DELETED.
Peace Misc - you and I rarely see eye-to-eye, but having re-read the Warlock Knights thread yesterday, I'm willing to just call a ceasefire. That was some good, old-school DM-brainstorming right there, and it was a lot of fun. I miss that about the WotC forums.
Neither one of us would be here right now if we didn't feel so passionately about the Realms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 22:49:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Peace Misc - you and I rarely see eye-to-eye, but having re-read the Warlock Knights thread yesterday, I'm willing to just call a ceasefire. That was some good, old-school DM-brainstorming right there, and it was a lot of fun. I miss that about the WotC forums.
Peace.
You're right about the Warlock Knights scroll: it represented what the FR Community on the WotC forums were capable of when we put our heads together and cooperated.*
I wish I'd taken the initiative to create more activities like that to bring us all together.
But instead I chose to fight and that...well, you've already accurately described what the WotC forums are like now.
Want to work on something small scale and 4E Realms related? Maybe do a crossover here and at WotC? Just a thought, if you're interested...
*I'm proud of the fact that some of our work made it into official Realmslore too, even if one forum member (:cough:Therise:cough) was adamantly against its inclusion.  |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 08 Mar 2011 22:50:58 |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
360 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 23:01:46
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Yep good lets not recriminate but turn this thread positive.
What happened to the efforts to restart the Compendium? I just about finished my submission when it all went quiet again. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 23:02:29
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| At this point, we should perhaps move on from the topic of the WotC forums... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 23:24:23
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I've just popped in to get my messages and seen this thread.
I think one of my points has well and truly been made!
Wooly, Sage, Please close this thread.
I would have just slipped of quietly if I had known my thread would have caused a Wotc drama.
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I'm Back! |
Edited by - Delzounblood on 08 Mar 2011 23:24:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2011 : 23:28:33
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But I also think we have made some progress spiritually.
Sometimes these these need to be gotten off our chests.
And Hi Delzoun - glad you are still checking messages, even if you don't want to participate. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 00:14:44
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What is this crap!? Hugging and getting along?! LONG LIVE WHITE DWARF!
oh...wrong topic >_>
;) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 00:26:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
It is of course idiotic to log in to say this but...
I am leaving purely for Candlekeep and posters reasons. Indirectly the 4ed. plays a role.Its either leaving or starting to delete my own posts in anger as I don't have the temper for this any more.
No personal reasons or real life reasons at all and not leaving the Realms either.
Bye! I'll miss your contributions. Come back when you wanna.
You too, Delzoumblood. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 00:57:34
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quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
Yep good lets not recriminate but turn this thread positive.
What happened to the efforts to restart the Compendium? I just about finished my submission when it all went quiet again.
Unfortunately, 'tis still stuck in limbo. I'm not sure how the project Matt James was championing, is proceeding. But our own attempts to re-launch the Candlekeep Compendium here, remain locked until progress on the Fan Site policy becomes apparent. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 09 Mar 2011 00:58:16 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 02:32:42
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Does anybody else have a warm fuzzy feeling?
Awwww, how sweet. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2011 : 03:26:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Delzounblood
I've just popped in to get my messages and seen this thread.
I think one of my points has well and truly been made!
Wooly, Sage, Please close this thread.
I would have just slipped of quietly if I had known my thread would have caused a Wotc drama.
Done. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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So many gone ..........Delz leaves
Topic Locked
