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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 15:07:43
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Hi everybody,
just wondering if the 5th lvl fabricate spell ( 3,5e) couldbe used also to generate iron / steel ingots from iron ore.
respectively then also for all other types of metal.
IMHO, it should work, but keen on your opinions.
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 17:24:10
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| As the dwarf that always use the DMīs hat, I will say yes to that question. It will give the spellcaster another card to play, and will mantain the sense of wonder alive. And, more important, probably it will generate more fun in the game table. :D |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 17:25:23
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Iron ore is not the same material as iron.
Tough luck. |
z455t |
Edited by - Kno on 01 Mar 2011 17:26:03 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 19:18:36
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"You convert material of one sort into a product that is of the same material"
"The quality of items made by this spell is commensurate with the quality of material used as the basis for the new fabrication."
"You must make an appropriate Craft check to fabricate articles requiring a high degree of craftsmanship. "
So I would rule you could make an iron ore sword if there is skill in weapon making. A sword made from iron ore however would not be a sword made of iron or the more durable steel.
A iron ore sword would likely shattered if striking metal armor. Against leather or less the iron ore sword might last a few months up to maybe a year.
Iron ore has impurities in it that makes it weaker then refined metal.
Fabricate does not refine or change the source material.
If you want to fabricate a steel sword you would need to start with something already made of steel. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 20:58:35
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Iron ore.
I agree, the fabricate spell could turn a lump of iron ore into a sword made of iron ore, not iron nor steel. It would be an awful weapon, fairly brittle, not even as sharp as flint or obsidian.
But if the point of the question is to ask whether fabricate could be used to refine metals (and other materials) then the answer is no. It cannot transmute the substance, only change it's form. It can form the ore into ingots, but they'd have the same metal (and non-metal) yields as does the unshaped raw ore.
I'd personally allow a player to research a refining spell for this purpose, though. Keeping in mind that a pack of dwarves is always going to cost less than an assembly line made of wizards. Such a spell might require an immense (metal melting) heat source or air/fire/earth elementals to function. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 Mar 2011 21:02:19 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 21:35:18
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Hey, if idea is speeder extraction of ore this might be an idea to be considered.
Stone to flesh.
Trust be it is far easier to cut flesh then stone. I seem to recall at least one spell version covered a 10 foot cube.
Transport flesh to refinery, it might be lighter then ore though I do not recall any rule that changed weight.
Then cast on the flesh either dispell or flesh to stone.
The mine would likely need shoring to move in deeper, however all mines need shoring to some if not great extent. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 21:43:35
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Stone to flesh + gelatinous cube (or rot grubs) + big magnet = low cost iron production.
I wonder if hungry rust monsters on a (leather) leash can be used effectively to survey for metal deposits. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 21:49:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hey, if idea is speeder extraction of ore this might be an idea to be considered.
Stone to flesh.
Trust be it is far easier to cut flesh then stone. I seem to recall at least one spell version covered a 10 foot cube.
Transport flesh to refinery, it might be lighter then ore though I do not recall any rule that changed weight.
Then cast on the flesh either dispell or flesh to stone.
The mine would likely need shoring to move in deeper, however all mines need shoring to some if not great extent.
Ok, now Iīm fearing Kentinal. 
Someone need to lock that necromancerīs room. Even great readers are being tempted.  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 21:57:04
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arik, good point here.
did not see from this point. so, it wouldbe usable to reduce the excavated rock to the pure iron ore ( iron ingots as example ) which then couldbe much easier transported to a refining site.
if this wouldbe the case, then maybe once or twice a week a mage could use fabricate on the excavated rock and then move the iron ongots to the smelter....
or am i missing something here again? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 22:17:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Ok, now Iīm fearing Kentinal.
Those that know Kentinal fear him, he was to die something like ten years ago (in planned play). Not only did he survive the assassination attempt, he grew in power to being a major force in the pocket sphere he lives in.
There are reasons to fear the DarK Over Lord of the IWT. *G* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2011 : 22:23:58
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Your approach would work, JK.
It would probably be better to give some big semidumb peasant 2d4+1 silvers to break the pile down into buckets and wagon them off to the refining site for you. Let him know you'll tip him a gold piece if he finishes before sundown, let him involve all the friends he likes. Save your spell slot for something useful, read a book, take a nap. Buy your peasant some lunch, ignore him until the job is done, and him an extra gold on the side so you can always count on him being available when another pile of ore accumulates. Don't like spending a few gold each day? Just use your spell slot to cast something else for money.
The smelter is basically just a furnace, which likely burns coke (basically charcoal, smokeless coal) and has a bellows or engine constantly forcing a lot of air (oxygen) into the flames to stoke the heat up. The best steel (in our pre-Bessemer industrial age) required massive foundry stacks which could burn the hottest flames to melt the metal (which then flowed out a pipe into pig-iron molds). Smaller smelters, even just a kiln the size of a large BBQ, might not melt the metal but can melt most of the stone (which is then skimmed or poured off the top), resulting in less pure (say around 98%) iron content but allowing the bulk of the slag to be discarded before transporting the metal to the foundry for further refining.
Basically - why waste magic when mundane methods are already very effective? Use the magic only when mundane methods don't work or aren't available; for example, refining pure adamantium or meteorite might be done better by magic since the quantities might be very small (and valuable) yet require almost unattainably hot temperatures (ie: exotic fuels) to melt and refine in a furnace. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
658 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 09:37:08
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| The level of the Fabricate spell is so high that I would allow even from raw materials, in condition that the arcanist knows the basics of the nonmagical process. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2011 : 22:37:53
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i am very much to go for the iron ore fabricates iron ingots, and from stell you can then make anything else.
fabricate can break the game anyway with ease, no reason to improve this.
thanks everyone for sharing opinions / information. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 12:41:59
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| Well it will take some time to get the ingots and use the spell anyways. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 16:34:01
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You may just want to create a lower-level Smelt spell (something derived from Dwarvish Runes, perhaps?)
Smelting, which is what you are trying to do, is a completely different process then fabricating - you are extracting, NOT creating.
I believe there is a Stone to Mud spell somewhere that would work as well (and be 'less icky' then Kentinel's approach). You would have a fantasy version of strip-mining.
Then once all the iron-ore is separated from the stone, Fabricate can be used to turn it all into ingots. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Mar 2011 03:15:29 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 18:43:36
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| A splendid idea Markus. And a simpler solution as well. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2011 : 22:42:52
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| Another thing to keep in mind is the 2nd level dwarven priest spell Forge Fire in Dragon 129. It lights a fire that gets hotter as you go up in level, which at 7th level is hot enough to forge and smelt iron, using only a couple of twigs for fuel. Of course, it is a 1st edition spell, but does provide some food for thought. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 09:16:08
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@markustay, indeed a very interesting approach, with stone to mud.
u cast stone to mud, wash the mud away and as you say have a strip-mining process.
on the other side, you could also work as in a placer mine - saying you cast the spell, and then open a gate, connected to a nearby stream that washes the mud away - or IS this strip-mining??
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2011 : 20:19:02
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| Jakuta Well in general any surface mining tends to be considered strip mining. That is striping off the surface or washing away the surface both would be open air mining that takes away the surface in order to collect the ore, gen or whatever is being mined for. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2011 : 11:51:17
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| Kentinal, thankx for this, I know the mining principles, it is just sometimes my lack of understanding for the english language..... |
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fabricate and mining
