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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:01:47
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Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 02 Apr 2011 00:00:14
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:12:18
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I love unbalanced encounters. PC's are usually smart (not always)
enough to realize that they either need to run, try and
negotiate, find tools or tricks to defeat the encounter before them.
Occasionally, I use unbalanced encounters to kill higher-level
NPC to show them how dangerous the forces against them are.
But sometimes I have noticed that the PC's mathmatical CR doesn't
match the in play CR. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:28:56
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| I've done the "300 Spartans" thing, facing my handful of PCs against massed hordes (thousands) of low-level garbage opponents. Once underground (PCs invaded large orc settlement), several times in a military/seige setting (vs zombies/skellies, gnolls, the usual stuff). Such continuous battles usually take several sessions to play out, hours and hours of nonstop hack-n-slash, blasting, and frantic healing. One PC brags about having drained 97 charges from his wand during a single combat. |
[/Ayrik] |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:31:05
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Yes, constantly. I love 'Darwinian' gaming and most of my players have done too. Having players blunder into situations where they're outclassed and have to use their wits or roleplay rather than mechanics to get out of the mess they're in adds whole other dimensions to most games.
As long as you find the right balance between "outclassed" and "instant-TPK", I'd recommend it. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 00:49:28
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| Well, I prefer to avoid TPK, however clearly have indicated to the PCs the apparent dangers, some parties retreat to get aid, some attack then retreat injured sometimes losing a party member or two, and of course the never retreat party that results in TPK or divine intervention. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 06:23:40
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This is something I often emphasise in my games. I like the characters having that sense that they are in a real living, breathing world with real repurcussions. The characters are indeed heroes (or at least aspiring) but that they are still only small cogs in a very rich tapestry.
The realms are dangerous. Wandering the dangerous areas of the world may expose them to threats far beyond them....tangling with powerful organisations will bring real reprisals. The respect the characters have for the setting grows very quickly when they know that the world is an independant entity and is not constantly 'scaled' to their level wherever they go.
One of our most retold encounters at the table is when the party of four 5th level characters were making their way cross-country to investigate some abandoned mines in the nearby mountains when they encountered 4 lumbering hill giants!
Ordianarily they would have tried to hide but in this case they had a Wagon in tow(one the hill giants had taken an eye). So ensued on of the most nail-biting, tactical and daring encounters of their careers. They won out in the end....making the hill giants realises their food was not worth the cost(thinking twice about attacking future travellers) and the players they had a newfound respect for the dreaded 'encounter table' and the wilds of the North.
Realsiing that the world is already full of dangerous creatures/organisations/NPC's/dungeons and only by their own skill, luck and intelligence have they survived to become the 'movers and shakers' they aspired for. This sense of a rich, independant world created that 'points of light' feel much more readily than any changes 4ed made I find. Needless to say these characters are now very active with cultivating new 'talented adventurers' who they know are pivotal in risking their lives to stave of the many known(and unknown) dangers of the world. |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
Edited by - Eli the Tanner on 12 Feb 2011 06:26:07 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 06:40:32
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| Heh, I've done this on occasion- just to scare the bejeezus out of my players when they start to get cocky. I have an uber-colossal red great wyrm named Helstron who likes to roam around my campaign world, and I've had two groups of players who encountered him. One was in disguise as a wizard in command of an army that was on the march to invade a nearby kingdom, and another was in lair, which they did not know whose lair it was. The first group nearly wet their pants when he transformed into his true shape in the middle of the battle and squashed half their allied force!!! Needless to say, they ran. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 18:54:36
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I think if players choose to rush into a dangerous situation then they deserve what they get... unless of course the DM changes things midway through and screws them....
I also like to see what the players come up with in those situations and reward creativity. Sometimes it makes for a lot more fun than what was planned. |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 03:26:29
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I have - unfortunately - had way too many groups decide anything I setup must be 'do-able', and wound up with TPK's.
As agent Kay said in MIB: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."
In my experience, if you tell PCs there is a bunch of Orcs over the next hill, they will rush to attack it, regardless. 
To be fair, the majority of my groups have been young people (kids) I am teaching the game to. Perhaps if I had a more mature group I'd consider it again. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2011 : 17:51:53
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heh, the better question to ask me is do you ever purposely balance your encounters
i never use CR
this is faerun, where do you guys (PCs) wanna go explore?
you four 6th level guys pick Daurglothoth's lair? ... well lets roll up four new guys
the same guys pick a small goblin raiding party ... well if you are dissatisfied with the two-round battle and the 14cp try a lil more
it's ALL about risk and reward ratios, and travelling around in a "REAL" world
balancing is so metagaming to me, it's up to the PCs to FIND their correct risk-reward adventures in a world already there for them
the only "balancing" i MAY do is fudging some die rolls if the PCs deserve it by their precautions and strategies
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Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 03:06:27
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| I kinda fall between Coach and Alystra as I'm not keen on balancing but not keen on TPK either. That said I'll let a TPK happen if its down to pure stupidity rather than bad luck. For instance I had a party running around the sewers under Riatavin, they'd been warned about noxious and flammable gasses sometimes found down there (repeatedly) and while they were on their toes about the risk of suffocation, the flammable bit got forgotten. I've always loved the fact that what finally killed that party was a Dethek sign added to the room description specifically so the low light vision dwarf could read it and warn them, only for another character to try to light a torch and read it.... The sign said; "No Naked Flames." |
Edited by - BlackAce on 14 Feb 2011 03:07:56 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2011 : 03:44:09
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I'm with Coach on this one.
Granted, I plant rumors and ideas for the party...but it is entirely up to them where they go...and whether they die.
If they choose to try and take out the Temple in the Sky, well, I let them try (the party that tried actually won out...by the skin of their teeth). If instead they decide to go slaughter a family of kobolds that has been bothering a small village...well, that is what it is all about too. Once the party becomes noted, some things SHOULD be easy for them.
In all, the world is premade in front of my players (for the most part) and I allow them to go where they may...and only guide them ever so rarely with ideas and hints.
The same party that took out the Temple in the Sky also assaulted Glister where I had a Hero-God (they thought he was a true Demi-God) holed up as the "capital" of his empire. They got wiped out to a man, but they did finish the guy off.
All up to the players... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 02:13:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Basically, have you ever ignored the concept of a “balanced encounter” in favor of letting PCs know something is close by that could slay them outright, then sit back and let the party decide what to do?
This is something I like to do. Just curious if you've gone there yourselves and how it went...was it a failure, great success or did things turn out completely different then what you figured? 
I do this regularly, you have to make the pcs affraid to go places and make them play smart. Also, it is okay with the pcs loose some times, helps keep the characters egoes in check. I think there are a lot of ways a party can loose and not end up in TPK, which is a bad thing. I've done a video about this exact thing on youtube. |
Check out my reviews on youtube of Forgotten Realms and other rpg products. http://www.youtube.com/user/woodwwad?feature=mhum |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2011 : 19:12:14
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I don't delibratly try and put my PC's into encounters that are over their heads, but they often wander into them during the game. One of the things I do when preparing form a campaign is to set up some geographic areas that are much more dangerous than others.
For example, in a Daggerdale campaign I ran many years ago, the main roads were patroled by Zhent soldiers and as a result were very safe (average CR was 2). On the other hand, the Dagger Hills were very dangerous (average CR was 8). The players were given a packet of "What you Know" material that indicated through legend or rumor just how dangerous various areas were. And yet, about three weeks into the game, the PC's decided to take a "short-cut" to Shadowdale through the Dagger Hills.
The result was nearly a TPK. Five PC's unconcious and stable. The other two didn't have more than 6 HP's between them. Fortunatly, they fed most of the riding horses to the ogres and worgs and escaped in the wagon. That tought them a very valuable lesson - read the material I provde for them at the start of the game. |
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Xevo
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 01:56:29
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| When planning for fights or impossible odds...I never consider the level or power of the PCs. This helps to save time, but it is also a nod to the sheer ingenuity of my group. And I almost always set up situations where even I don't know how the PCs will survive or get out. On the same vein I never have just one "main villain." Too often the PCs will prove too resourceful and kill him/her/it long before expected. Without truly knowing the villain, I ensure that my PCs don't either. |
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.
-Terry Pratchett |
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Xevo
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 01:58:05
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| To be fair, such a set up has only ever killed the party once (and they deserved it...trust me). |
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it.
-Terry Pratchett |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2011 : 13:01:31
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Hmmm....have them meet Inferno, a Colossal Red Dragon, in the Star Mounts  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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