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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 06:54:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
*I was never clear, do tieflings descend from devils, demons, or both?
I've always assumed both.
Any type of fiend. There are some 'loth blooded tieflings specifically noted as being such (Kylie the Tout for instance, was rumored to be the Marauder's grand-daughter). You could probably even find tieflings descended from fiends who don't possess the capacity to breed in the first place.
And I pronounce tiefling as TEE-fling. PS:Torment did the same, and there have been some pronunciation guides that likewise went that route.
And fwiw, any commentary I have on planar material refers to 1e/2e/3e rather than 4e. 4e changes so many basic things that it's effectively a different game with regards to planar matters and even the base identity of many creatures. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 07 Feb 2011 06:58:42 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 06:56:44
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Angels can be very interesting when potrayed as more hardlined divine servants rather than the guy on your shoulder telling you to do good. To paraphrase from Supernatural; "Angels are warriors of God. I'm a soldier. I pulled you out of the pit, and I can put you back in. You should show me some respect."
They don't have to be bad to be interesting. But "good" doesn't mean "nice". |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 07:02:45
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| I note that google searches find many more hits for tiefling than for aasimar. I also note that images of aasimar can be found in roughly equal numbers of male and female (and indeterminant) genders, while images of tieflings are overwhelmingly female. The aasimar often have to pose in group photos with other outsider freaks, while the tieflings almost always get closeup shots. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Feb 2011 07:07:37 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 07:02:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Angels can be very interesting when potrayed as more hardlined divine servants rather than the guy on your shoulder telling you to do good. To paraphrase from Supernatural; "Angels are warriors of God. I'm a soldier. I pulled you out of the pit, and I can put you back in. You should show me some respect."
They don't have to be bad to be interesting. But "good" doesn't mean "nice".
I want to see Constantine have wings. That's the kind of angel I want!
But you're right. Angels don't have to be evil to be interesting.  |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 07 Feb 2011 07:12:34 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 07:13:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Half-god ... the rules in (and out) of D&D seem very unclear about what that actually implies, a half-god might essentially amount to being a pure-god, an avatar of the parent god, a Hercules superhero, or simply a remarkable "human" hero/King/etc.
To me there seems to be a bit a blur between the weakest gods and the mightiest fiends/celestials in D&D, confusing the distinction between a half-god and a half-celestial even more. Some people can accept (or assume) more absolute definitions than I can, and of course, the relevant details have suffered several contradictory revisions over the years.
It changes by edition and even by the book and author within each edition of the game. I don't think 1e really addressed the topic, 2e had sources saying different things, 3e had sources saying different things, and 4e I believe has gods on top always versus archfiends (I don't know their reasoning).
For instance, 2e's Hellbound: The Blood War had details on why deities don't actively fight in the Blood War, but only act through proxies at most. At some point as they got too active, they all began to notice their divine essence literally fraying apart, and eventually one of them died as a result. Once they withdrew, it stopped. The cause isn't known, but planetary-scale genocide of their worshippers by the various fiends was one possibility. There was also one specific incident of the 'loths killing a god by snuffing out the faith of his worshippers and literally bleeding him dry. There are a few other instances such as Set and Prince Levistus of Hell getting into a tiff, and Levistus by force of will over the layer of Stygia causing an actual contraction of Set's deific domain.
Other sources say the exact opposite. But it's often a case of giving the archfiends homefield advantage. They're literally the stuff of Evil - living extensions of their own planes, and gods may be of evil alignment, but they lack that same primordial (not the 4e term) link to it and its representative plane. However outside of that native plane, a deity has the advantage pretty much everywhere else. Ultimately it's in the best interest of both to simply stay out of the others' way, because too much is at stake, and they often care about utterly different goals.
As for my opinion, when it comes to the 1e/2e/3e version of things within D&D, my contribution in the one instance it applies comes down to "gods will get their clocks cleaned if they take on an archfiend on its home plane." Pathfinder is a bit different, and Gods by and large are indeed top dog, but they aren't absolutely the same in nature as deities from the classical Planescape definition of such things. Plus Lamashtu and Asmodeus are both archfiends and deities at the same time - they're cool like that. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 07:18:29
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| Well, I'd imagine tiefling women are more inclined to wear revealing clothing than aasimar/deva women. Come to think of it, most 4e artwork I've seen of deva women has them dressing rather conservatively, even wearing viels/masks to cover their face(imagry I'm rather fond of). Tiefling women...less so. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 08:50:45
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I noticed the differences in clothing style as well. Aasimar are usually shown wearing solemn ceremonial priestly garments while tieflings are typically portrayed as sexed up gothmetal biker rebels. I agree the angelic veils are somewhat cool but I wonder why aasimar conceal their faces and features. Are they shy or afraid? Do they feel guilt or shame about their appearance? Do they encourage deception? Do they sunburn easily or suffer vanity? I would think they'd be inclined to revel in their beauty and share it with others, and that they'd prefer openness in all their dealings.
Odd that outsiders would adopt our (outdated) social mores about clothing and propriety, aasimar want to appear puritan while tieflings wanna party, and they evidently costume themselves the way we would to play these parts. Fiends are tough, adapted to suffer no harm from exposure to the harsh conditions on the lower planes, so they obviously don't need to protect themselves from the elements in places like Toril. But celestials have just as many resistances and immunities, so a similar argument doesn't justify why they're so heavily zipped up. If anything, tieflings should be more clothed simply because they tend to follow more hazardous vocations. I can understand tieflings not favouring concealing headwear, since they almost universally have a confrontational and defiant attitude. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 16:30:24
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| The reason might have been touched on in either the main article on them in Player's Handbook 2, or in the dragon artcile Ecology of the Deva. It's been some time since I've read either and, as mentioned, I don't have access right now. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 15:25:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Brynweir
I could be mistaken here, but can't a half-celestial be the child of a deity and a mortal and not just that of, say, an angel and a mortal? Half-celestial = the son of a god born of a mortal woman, no? Yeah, go ahead and yell at me.
By Realmslore, this is probably true.
The descendants of the God-Kings of Mulhorand are canonically aasimar and a son or daughter might well be half-celestial. Mulhorand is filled with individuals with some divine blood.
Anyone looking for noteworthy Aasimar in the Realms ought to start there. Unfortunately, I don't think that any were named. In my campaign, I have a lot of the higher-ups in the clergy of Horus-Re be aasimar and some are half-celestials with special abilities related to their god-ancestor. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 17:06:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I noticed the differences in clothing style as well. Aasimar are usually shown wearing solemn ceremonial priestly garments while tieflings are typically portrayed as sexed up gothmetal biker rebels. I agree the angelic veils are somewhat cool but I wonder why aasimar conceal their faces and features. Are they shy or afraid? Do they feel guilt or shame about their appearance? Do they encourage deception? Do they sunburn easily or suffer vanity? I would think they'd be inclined to revel in their beauty and share it with others, and that they'd prefer openness in all their dealings.
Odd that outsiders would adopt our (outdated) social mores about clothing and propriety, aasimar want to appear puritan while tieflings wanna party, and they evidently costume themselves the way we would to play these parts. Fiends are tough, adapted to suffer no harm from exposure to the harsh conditions on the lower planes, so they obviously don't need to protect themselves from the elements in places like Toril. But celestials have just as many resistances and immunities, so a similar argument doesn't justify why they're so heavily zipped up. If anything, tieflings should be more clothed simply because they tend to follow more hazardous vocations. I can understand tieflings not favouring concealing headwear, since they almost universally have a confrontational and defiant attitude.
Although... I could very easily see an Aasimar child of Sune, or Bast, or Llira, dressed very provocatively. Perhaps the reason we've mostly seen art for Aasimar that is reserved and puritanical is that many of them have been children of "duty" or "honor" celestials and they simply don't think of their beauty / sexiness as being important to whatever mission they're on.
I mean, if you're a child of Torm (or one of his celestials), you probably wouldn't want people to be staring at your chest or your butt while you're trying to organize and rally against a group of evildoers.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 12 Nov 2011 17:09:40 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 17:10:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Although... I could very easily see an Aasimar child of Sune, or Bast, or Llira, dressed very provocatively. Perhaps the reason we've mostly seen art for Aasimar that is reserved and puritanical is that many of them have been children of "duty" or "honor" celestials and they simply don't think of their beauty / sexiness as being important to whatever mission they're on.
One would expect, however, that dramatically fewer celestials devoted exclusively to duty and honour, without a sexy thought in their luminous bodies, manage to sire any children.
In order to beget, one must get it on, as they say.
So I'd expect most aasimar to be descended from celestials that find humans sexually attractive and are willing to act on that feeling. So deities of love, lust and fun (and their servitors) are much more likely to have aasimar descendants than those deities and servitors who never stop to smell the roses (or juicy mortals) while they carry out their honourable tasks. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Edited by - Icelander on 12 Nov 2011 17:12:32 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2011 : 17:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Although... I could very easily see an Aasimar child of Sune, or Bast, or Llira, dressed very provocatively. Perhaps the reason we've mostly seen art for Aasimar that is reserved and puritanical is that many of them have been children of "duty" or "honor" celestials and they simply don't think of their beauty / sexiness as being important to whatever mission they're on.
One would expect, however, that dramatically fewer celestials devoted exclusively to duty and honour, without a sexy thought in their luminous bodies, manage to sire any children.
Who said that the duty/honor-related Aasimar don't have any desire for sex?
My comment was more that: if you're an adventurer, and your business is adventuring to uphold virtues and such, you're not very likely to dress provocatively for business.
quote:
So I'd expect most aasimar to be descended from celestials that find humans sexually attractive and are willing to act on that feeling. So deities of love, lust and fun (and their servitors) are much more likely to have aasimar descendants than those deities and servitors who never stop to smell the roses (or juicy mortals) while they carry out their honourable tasks.
I'd actually expect fewer aasimar to be descended from good-oriented deities of lust/beauty. Statistically, beauty and sexiness are not exactly what you'd expect to find among dirty peasants. You're more likely to find beauty/sexiness among fellow celestials.
Furthermore, if and when a good celestial does mate with a mortal based on beauty/lustful characteristics, it's not necessarily the case that the aasimar offspring would adventure (where a duty/honor aasimar would be more likely to adventure).
Demons and evil celestials might mate with any old human, attractive or not, so long as they further their own agenda.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2011 : 00:40:32
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Intellectual concerns, manipulations, and procreation as a means to propagate ideologies or heirs and agendas or whatnot all being set aside for the moment ... an aasimar is still (at least) half human, and it seems to me that aasimar would therefore possess very much the same biological imperatives as humans, even if only in half measure.
Agreed, not all gods are stuffy morally upstanding puritans. They are pagan, they are powerful, they are the embodied abstractions of every passion and every extreme which falls within the capacity of humans - and non-humans - of the Realms. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Are there any noteworthy AASIMAR in the realms?
