| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 18:55:51
|
Is Thar a region in both FR and Greyhawk?
I was flipping though Dungeon #20, which includes "Ship of Night" that I want to run, but I happened across Pride of the Sky.
I was looking at it and thinking to myself - oh, it could easily be a Halruuan Airship or even a Spelljammer. Mind you I haven't gotten very far into it.
It mentions that takes place in the "Broken Lands," but that "Orcs of Thar" would be a great resource to go along with the adventure.
I'm guessing there's a Thar in Greyhawk, and that's what these orcs are from.
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 20:17:44
|
GAZ10 was written specifically for 1E D&D (not AD&D) and set in the Known World, Mystara.
However, it does provide notes for conversion into 1E AD&D. Conversion to 2E and beyond is up to you. 
Note that 1E orcs are Lawful Evil, not Chaotic Evil. Worse yet, 1E D&D (not AD&D) has only Lawful-Neutral-Chaotic alignments. Very relevant distinctions in this material.quote:
Gazatteer nations can now be set up in other game worlds, such as those described in the FORGOTTEN REALMS™ Campaign Set, or the WORLD OF GREYHAWK® Fantasy Game Setting ... Considering the similarity between the Broken Lands and the region of Thar described in the FORGOTTEN REALMS™ set, you could either replace Thar with the Broken Lands or assume there is a magical portal linking the two places ... The gate can just as well lead to the WORLD OF GREYHAWK® Goblins of the Pomarj, or to Iuz.
It's not all that great, though it does offer a little convenience and has a lot of interesting ideas about orcs and other goblinoids. I basically ignored the maps and imported the better GAZ10 material into my Thar in the Realms, no need to use portals and other arbitrary complications. Broken Lands, Tortured Lands, whatever — there's already lots of empty space above the Moonsea and orcs get killed either way. As an early D&D (not AD&D) product it insultingly assumes the DM can hardly tie his own shoes. Presentation style is similar to The North or Arcane Ages material. Artwork is about what you'd expect from TSR's Golden Age of Panic. It's really quite thin once all the padding of (obsolete) charts and tables is excised. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 03 Feb 2011 21:29:05 |
 |
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 22:57:50
|
Well, I like Orcs of Thar...but remember that "Thar" is a King of sorts in that supplement.
Also, I've used it in the Forgotten Realms to outline the Underdark a bit under Thar itself. It takes only a few slight changes and it would fit nicely into Thar...but strictly in an Underdark sort of way.
My current game, that I'm running with my children, using the Ruins of Adventure module, will be using the Orcs of Thar supplement as well! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 00:34:39
|
Hey, I like GAZ10 too. I'm just observing that it might not be as "valuable" as people expect.
I'm quite hesitant about installing a permanent portal to Mystara or Greyhawk or wherever. There's just no need. And too much risk of some random Cold Lands lich, witch, tyrant, or necromancer seizing it for nasty purposes.
Mind ye, any of those magical pools scattered throughout the area would serve admirably as a portal to other-Thar. The famous pool of radiance is briefly described in FRC1 as "a portal to one of the darker planes (which one is currently unknown)" which is somehow linked to Tyranthraxus in a manner similar to a lich's phylactery. The lands of Thar (on both sides of the portal) could have taken their name from a legendary orc chieftain or warrior or tribe who claimed them.
I am quite taken with the sudden notion of an "orcish" demiplane which coexists in parallel with primes (as do the ethereal, feywild, and shadowfell), from which orcs and goblins spawn into the dismal semi-remote corners of other worlds. I'd call it Mordor, domain of Gruumsh, lol, and I might even say it's a splinter plane which drifted away from Acheron or some forgotten orc "homeworld". It might even connect with our Earth from time to time. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 14:43:45
|
Orcs are considered Goblins in 1e and Mystara (I believe this was changed in AD&D at some point), as are Ogres. 1e tried to keep things more 'reigned-in'.
Since 'The Thar' is a region of a former Ogre Kingdom (that included many Orcs), and ogres are goblinoids in Mystara, it might be interesting to postulate that Mystara's Orcs of Thar are actually some remnant of the ancient FR kingdom.
Because, you know, its not like the Realms aren't known for entire nations (and continents!) to swap places with regions on other worlds. 
This would be similar to how I envision the Suel of Greyhawk being an Imaskari outpost originally. I'm rather fond of inter-connectivity. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2011 21:20:06 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 16:21:16
|
Ah, now, there's a worthy RSE. Quit killing off the poor little goddess and banging on the Weave, bring in the manly gods, have Gruumsh initiate the Orc-plague, every orc in the cosmos simultaneously becoming enraged with instinctive bloodlust ...
(Yeah, I've always gamed with Old Skool bad boy orcs, none of them sissy peaceful/spiritual hippy orcs that are all the fashion these days.) |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2011 : 22:40:10
|
(in my best mac commercial voice)
You know, I bet they have a mythal for that. |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 01:32:21
|
This topic made me read the book...man, good memories!
I love the "Handbook" on how to be a good orc legionaire! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2011 : 16:14:41
|
quote:
Markustay
... its not like the Realms aren't known for entire nations (and continents!) to swap places with regions on other worlds.
That's a brilliant solution. It's actually a big plus for Spellplague ... you can import/transpose into the Realms any region from any D&D product or sourcebook, put it almost anywhere you like, and still be true to official "canon" ...
The GAZ series don't require such extreme housewarming parties. They're already designed to be semi-generic and useable "as-is". I modified/adapted GAZ10 in my campaign simply so I could pick whichever details from GAZ-Thar and Realms-Thar I personally preferred; it wasn't necessary to ensure compatibility. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 21:04:56
|
I think Gaz10 orcs of the Thar would certainly be a good starting point for any humanoid dominated region. I don't think there re meaningful differences between D&D orcs and AD&D orcs, certainly none that good DMing can't fix.
On a semi-related note, Gaz08 The Five Shires was written by Ed greenwood and works extremely well for Luiren, in my opinion. :) |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 21:25:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
That's a brilliant solution. It's actually a big plus for Spellplague ... you can import/transpose into the Realms any region from any D&D product or sourcebook, put it almost anywhere you like, and still be true to official "canon" ...
Which is what I have been saying all along.
The spellplague may have broken our hearts, but we no longer need worry about breaking canon.
As a fan, I'm still struggling with it, but as a DM I feel a wee bit liberated. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 21:26:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Ah, now, there's a worthy RSE. Quit killing off the poor little goddess and banging on the Weave, bring in the manly gods, have Gruumsh initiate the Orc-plague, every orc in the cosmos simultaneously becoming enraged with instinctive bloodlust ...
(Yeah, I've always gamed with Old Skool bad boy orcs, none of them sissy peaceful/spiritual hippy orcs that are all the fashion these days.)
I don't think the two are mutually exclusive so long as the spiritual orcs are practicing the brutal sacrificial spirituality and not the "save the trees" spirituality.
So long as they aren't being used as cannon fodder that any farm boy with a sword can cut down, I'm in favor of it. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 21:50:00
|
Orcs are people, regardless of their visage or dread reputation.
That means from group to group they will be as different as groups of humans are. I understand this is a fantasy game, but the thought of every Orc feeling and behaving the same (on multiple worlds!) is just preposterous. They are thinking beings, capable of making their own, individual decisions.
There is room for every variant, and in the Realms, even more so. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2011 : 23:04:03
|
quote:
Markustay
Orcs are people, regardless of their visage or dread reputation.
That means from group to group they will be as different as groups of humans are. I understand this is a fantasy game, but the thought of every Orc feeling and behaving the same (on multiple worlds!) is just preposterous. They are thinking beings, capable of making their own, individual decisions.
I agree wholeheartedly. Orcs are far more versatile and varied than other races like haughty hippy elves and grumbly artificing dwarves. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 04:05:10
|
Remind me to tell you about my two NPC fashion designers - a dwarf and an Elf - named Abercrombie and Fitch. They reside in Waterdeep and their gowns are the hottest thing amongst noble ladies. Rumor has it they are 'a couple'
I HATE stereotypes.
Maybe that belonged in the 'Icky' thread. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2011 04:18:02 |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 04:14:30
|
I was about to question the fact that you hate stereotypes but made a pair of fashion designers an alleged couple, before realizing you didn't specifiy gender for either of them. I then smacked myself for jumping to the conclusion.
Still, while I believe there is great range for the various characters, I generally like staying close to the architype and seeing how different I can be without going completely outside the box. Too many people go different just to be different and it becomes something of a gimmick for their characters; a flag to wave and go "LOOK AT ME!".
Then again, I did at one point play a full-blooded orc paladin of Torm. Occassionally I can't resist the temptation. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 05:15:47
|
I'll admit that 1E half-orc assassins (or assassin multiclasses) weren't all that great a choice. People just automatically assumed the half-orc was an assassin because in 1E the half-orc race really wasn't good at anything else. Sort of the same as people automatically assuming all kender vermin are thieves. The much more versatile 3E+ orcs and half-orcs are more appealing.
But the LE "vicious nazi bastard/coward" orc stereotype has served me well for many years. There are exceptions, but these are rare (and usually bad news for my party). Cosmopolitan Obould orcs do not exist at my table.
You can't "humanize" and civilize all the best monsters in the land — the heroes would eventually be left with no monsters to fight but rats and rotgrubs. Creatures wearing the stupid/ugly/evil mask can be killed with impunity, taking it off them turns adventure into murder. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Feb 2011 05:22:04 |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 06:00:31
|
Which is the kind of thing I love to do. That orc/goblin/gnoll you just killed? It had kids. Those kids? They're going to starve to death because you cut down their parent. Still feel good about killing it? No? Didn't think so.
I'm not opposed to people killing in fiction. I'm opposed to that killing being taken lightly. I wrote a half orc character who was involved in the war against Obould's army. He chewed out some of his fellow soldiers with a rant that amounted to "You go out there and you kill them and you see monsters. I go out there and I kill them and I see fathers and brothers and sons. I see the children I leave fatherless to defend my home." etc. Very powerful scene, in my opinion.
But I digress. Turning the orcs into something that isn't going to be cut down by the dozens with no effort is a good thing, in my opinion. Keeping them as mindless cannon fodder brutes took away their threat; they were a joke. (to be continued in another post due to character limit) |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 06:02:33
|
| Give orcs a civilization, a warrior civilization but a civilization none the less, and you give them their tusks back. Like I said, I don't want my orcs out picking flowers, but I don't want them piling up in corpses at the hands of an elf, either. I want orcs to be badasses, not mooks. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 13:25:41
|
I think the "doom" of the orc came when they were changed from lawful evil to chaotic evil. They went from organized warbands to roaming hordes.
Equals suck. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 15:32:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
You can't "humanize" and civilize all the best monsters in the land — the heroes would eventually be left with no monsters to fight but rats and rotgrubs. Creatures wearing the stupid/ugly/evil mask can be killed with impunity, taking it off them turns adventure into murder.
Are you saying there are NO monsters in the RW?
IN RL, there rarely is a true 'evil' or 'good', just various shades of gray. Some of my favorite adventures/stories are centered around human villains. Entire fantasy settings have nothing but humans (like Conan/Hyboria or Sword of Truth) or only one non-human race (Wheel of time or Elric/Melnibonea... but there were a couple of others at the fringes of 'civilization').
One of my favorite things to do is 'switch things up'. An early adventure I ran (in Greyhawk) had the party fleeing from Elves (Grugach), and they were rescued by Knights... who turned out to be orcs from the city of Gwarch. It was quite a surprise for the PCs when the Knights lifted their visors after driving the elves off. That city was run by a powerful Witch, and was entirely monsters, who behaved lawfully (although not 'good') mostly because they feared their leader. BTW, Brian James made my city (now just a village) canon in 4e (its on the Cormyr map, but its just a goblin settlement now, and it is operates as a trading post and all manner of creatures are welcome, so long as they behave themselves).
In my most recent campaign, the characters were (unknowingly) hired as caravan guards by the Red Wizards (the caravan was disguised and run by a haired 'sleeper agent'). The Harpers suspected something and they were being tailed, so there was some interesting potential for conflict and misunderstanding with the 'wrong side'.
Sometimes an Orc is NOT just an Orc, and I want my players to keep on their toes (and use their brains as much as their fists). There was a very good Drizzt story wherein a goblin turned out to be the victim, and the human the 'bad guy'. I liked the story because it points out that non-humans aren't the only ones keeping slaves on Toril, and humans WOULD NOT just keep human slaves. Humanity has just as much potential (if not more) for evil then anyone else.
Just ask any metallic dragon who has been 'mugged' and had his house robbed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2011 16:45:19 |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 15:48:04
|
"If the most devout dwarven paladin stood beside the most devout human paladin, who could doubt that the dwarf would marvel at his friend.
If the most evil drow wizard were in battle against the most evil human wizard, who would not hope the lesser evil of the drow would prevail?"
Quote of Dalor Darden about how humanity is both the most extreme in all things...and how hypocrisy rules the human mind, holding itself superior to all others. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 16:35:33
|
| Part of my problem, and this extends to all the various monster races used in fiction, is that when something becomes cannon fodder, it no longer posses a threat. You never think the hero is in danger, even when outnumbered a hundred to one, when he swats his enemies down like flies. It just destroys tension, and worse, instead of making the hero look strong it makes the badguys look weak. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 17:15:54
|
Keep in mind that the heroes from the novels (I'm assuming here you are thinking of The Thousand Orcs) are 'bigger then life' because they are the author-creations, and are supposed to be like that. They are NOT representative of the rules, and are far, FAR above 'the norm'.
The average farmstead... with a son or two and perhaps a couple of farmhands... would be hard-pressed to fend off even the smallest orc-raid. The PCs, despite being well 'below' the level of the novel-heroes, are still not representative of the average person in the Realms. And that's even after we take into account the fact that the folks of Toril are probably far hardier then the average Earth human.
I have also come to the conclusion - through much research - that FR Orcs will scale their own ferocity to the level of civilization around them. Orcs of the north are easilly the most notorious for being 'mindless brutes', and they had only the barbarians of the north (who are as savage as they) as neighbors for thousands of years. Strangely, I would compare the orcs to halflings, in that their own society adapts to the humans around them. For instance, the Orcs of the Stonelands (who live very close to Cormyr) mine their own ore and forge their own weapons and armor. They are the most civilized of all non-humans in the region. Orcs of Thar behave similarly (much better behaved then the ogres they share their territory with). And of course, on the far end of the extreme, we have the orcs of the Unapproachable East, who are hailed as heroes and welcome in human towns, and the Ondonti of the Tortured lands who are simple farmers and do not practice violence.
Think you know centaurs? The little bit of centaur history we have for FR indicates nothing but a series of violence between them and human groups, and the centaurs of Thay (the aboriginal people of the region) work as slave masters for the Red Wizards and carry whips. Thats a far cry from the arboreal, peace-loving sylvan fey we know from most other settings. Just another example of non-stereotypical 'monsters' one can encounter in FR.
Psychology: nurture vs nature... nurture wins almost every time (in a sentient creature). Treat it like a person, and it will become a person. Treat it like an animal... you get the idea. Most normal humanoids will behave if treated accordingly. Oddities like Beholders, Illithids, and Drow don't conform to this simply because they consider humans animals (or fodder). We don't like it when we get treated this way by them, so why is it okay for us (humans) to treat humanoids that way? Show some respect, and you'll get some in return.
Case in Point: There is a locale in the Hordelands (sorry, not near sources) that is a shrine for Eastern Monks. A band of goblins (fleeing some menace themselves) were offered refuge by the monks, and behaved themselves for a long time. Before being given sanctuary the goblins were normal, feral little monsters. Since then, an Oni (IIRC) has killed the monks and enslaved the goblins. The entry on the locale states that the goblins will side with PCs against the Oni, and they feel very bad about the Monks. THUS, when offered a CHOICE between being monsters, or being civilized and behaving (and being treated like people), they choose NOT to be monsters. Even a goblin wants to be respected.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Feb 2011 17:24:30 |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 17:25:44
|
I understand the reasoning for it; it's the extension of Superman fighting mobsters back in the forties, only without the benifit of kryptonite.
Still, reading about Drizzt single-handedly killing sixty orcs in a single engagement, when he was completely on his own, is simply too much. It isn't interesting reading at that point. It's puppies walking into a woodchipper.
Are you familiar with Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw, of Zero Puncuation fame? Well, if not, look him up. If so, I'm sure you're aware he does a weekly collum in which he gives certain musings; a few weeks ago he did one in regards to Star Wars: The Force Unleashed 2, in which he discribed it as "too awesome", and not in a good way. Its just too big, too unreal to grasp. You can't sympathize with it, you can't suspend your disbelief long enough to enjoy it. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2011 : 18:16:11
|
Thus proving even SciFy/fantasy Geeks like us have a threshold we can't cross in regards to suspension of disbelief.
'Jumping the Shark' applies to all forms of media. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Tarloc
Acolyte
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2011 : 02:32:04
|
| where the heck is New Verdigris located? (aimed at rhewtani, a fellow moonsea vet). from secret of silver blades |
"hey, you just rolled two natural twenties!"
"is that a touchdown?" |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
GAZ10 Orcs of Thar?
