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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 11:59:08
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Rule 34. If it exists, there is (or soon will be) a human fetish about it.
Hirsute podophilia (whatever it's called) is no doubt quite tame when the properties and anatomies of fantastic creatures are taken into consideration. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 13:36:41
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| In real life I've never had a problem with relations between normal sized people and little people.While some people are quick to jump to a certain...unpleasant conclusion regarding the motives behind that relationship, I don't think that would be brought up in the context of a world where both races know each other and are fairly intermingled. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 15:54:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I'm actually a bit surprised the entire human-halfling topic is being examined by an "official" D&D author. I would've thought the ready association with human perversions would make it entirely untouchable. Can you say why this question has arisen, Erik?
Well, I had this discussion with an editor of mine, who brought up much the same argument (ready association). And I thought it was interesting so I promised/threatened to post it here.
The differing stigmas is a valuable argument. Ed Greenwood's world (or any fantasy setting) is simply not our own. While something is internally consistent and totally not a big deal in a fantasy world like the Realms, it is inevitably interpreted through the moral lens of its readers (here in the RW). Things like "loose" relations, homosexuality, prostitution, etc., are stigmatized in the RW but carry much less negative connotation in the Realms. I'm not saying it should be one way or another--I'm just saying this is the sandbox we're playing in, whether we like it or not.
Three things to consider: moral, financial, and business concerns.
1) The Moral: I believe authors have a responsibility to "do no harm" with their work. I would not encourage something I believe to be immoral or harmful, and so I wouldn't want to glorify or in any way advocate pedophilia (as one can easily read into human x halfling relationships). Even if I personally believe it's all fair and good for a human and a halfling to have a consenting relationship (and for the record, I do), it's a fair consideration if there's any way I can make it palatable to the vast majority of my audience, who may interpret it in a much worse way than I intend it. I would not want to advocate something that IS wrong (i.e. child abuse), and so it might be better to err on the safe side and leave it out (i.e. the potential hazard outweighs the value).
2) The Financial: Again, I might think something is fine and good and should be in the book, but if it offends or turns off readers, I'm the one that takes the financial hit (and so does my publisher, see below!). I have a responsibility to be true to my art, but at the same time, I can't write if I can't eat. Y'know?
3) The Business: When considering whether to put something in a fantasy novel, it's worth considering how the publisher is going to feel. For WotC novels, we're talking about Hasbro, which derives most of its income from producing toys for a younger audience. The last thing any of us wants is a Hasbro executive looking at something that gets printed in a Realms novel and having a fit. (For the record, I don't think anything in the FR is really inappropriate to warrant such a thing, though some of the violence could stand to be toned down and some of the sex ramped up, but anyway.) That's not a win for anyone (including Hasbro).
Thanks for bringing up the little people analogy, CoA. I'll post this wiki link for anyone unclear on what I mean: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarfism
Little people are often the butt of rom-com jokes, the object of a great deal of derision, and to some extent fetishized as a sexual object. I really don't see why we think this is ok as a society. If I were to base a person's worth as a person on genetic differences that alter his/her appearance and statue, then I would be perfectly content with women or minority ethnic groups getting the same treatment. I mean, would *you* be ok with a black person not being able to have a relationship without it being considered a perversion or fetish? Obviously not.
The halfling x human relationship is more like that of a little person and a baseline-sized person, albeit without the same social stigma as we'd get here in the RW. Halflings have their own set of stigma, as a different species often (fairly or unfairly) known for being light-fingered and untrustworthy.
Here's another subjec to consider: in a fantasy setting, human x dwarf? Eh?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 16:20:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Here's another subjec to consider: in a fantasy setting, human x dwarf? Eh?
In Dark Sun a mul is a half-dwarf/half-human. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 16:20:34
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Erik, was this partly brought on by the closed thread about Drow Incest mayhaps?  |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 16:21:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyranthraxus
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Here's another subjec to consider: in a fantasy setting, human x dwarf? Eh?
In Dark Sun a mul is a half-dwarf/half-human.
It's more ok on Athas cause its too hot there for the female dwarves to keep beards. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
Edited by - Alisttair on 02 Feb 2011 16:22:08 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 16:40:47
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FR11 Dwarves Deep discusses half-dwarves (human-dwarves) in some detail. They are basically slightly taller dwarves who "breed true" to dwarven heritage; ie, they'll sire a "pure" dwarf if they mate with a dwarf or half-dwarf, otherwise (with a human) they'll sire another half-dwarf. The text actually attempts to describe this as a solemn and noble concept, with a great deal of respect toward the half-dwarf and the human parent, since the human parent "sacrifices" human racial heritage to help repopulate the diminishing dwarven race.
I don't personally go for bearded women* who can drink ten gallons of grog before benchpressing an ore-laden mining cart, let alone women who are happily proficient at smashing skulls with an axe. Still, I suppose there'll always be men who are attracted to such solid attributes.
* Yeah, I read the 4E statements concerning female dwarves and beards. You guys ain't gonna fool me, lol.
Permissive relations, homosexuality, and prostitution are not judged universally in our world, not even in our society. Some people don't care, some approve, some require a special license, some will condemn you. I still meet people who are "not" racist but have difficulty accepting interracial couples and such. Personally, I don't care what kind or colour person you are, I don't care about your religion, I don't care about your origins just pay your taxes and have the decency to try learning the local language (English, hell, I'll even accept French) and I'll treat you as an equal, lol.
I'd honestly be surprised if social values are globally consistent across Faerūn. Some cities, even some neighbourhoods, might treat halflings like citizens while others might treat them like vermin.
Elves have long considered themselves superior to humans (and even to other elves), although their "official" attitude seems to have slowly evolved from 1E's thinly-disguised disgust and scorn towards humans into 4E's aloof acceptance of humans as "equals". I'm not at all saying racism is a good thing or that it should be included in the D&D game. Indeed, I was quite happy when 2E did away with the overextensive 1E/UA charts that determined racial reaction modifiers. Racial prejudice has no place in my game.
But how does an elf feel when he sees his beloved only daughter being seduced by some graceless unsophisticated human monkey who's barely two decades old? How does a human father react when his daughter elopes with a firebreathing armoured reptile? How does a dwarven father react when his eldest son abandons the forge to spend time with some tiefling scamp? I fear their reactions would be based largely on racial judgements, far more angry than could be explained with mere fatherly protectiveness. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 02 Feb 2011 16:48:32 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 16:54:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Erik, was this partly brought on by the closed thread about Drow Incest mayhaps?
No--that thread got closed? What a surprise! 
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
FR11 Dwarves Deep discusses half-dwarves (human-dwarves) in some detail. They are basically slightly taller dwarves who "breed true" to dwarven heritage; ie, they'll sire a "pure" dwarf if they mate with a dwarf or half-dwarf, otherwise (with a human) they'll sire another half-dwarf. The text actually attempts to describe this as a solemn and noble concept, with a great deal of respect toward the half-dwarf and the human parent, since the human parent "sacrifices" human racial heritage to help repopulate the diminishing dwarven race.
That sounds like canonical basis to me. Though I wonder if social mores have changed over the last century to discourage this . . . hmm.
quote:
Personally, I don't care what kind or colour person you are, I don't care about your religion, I don't care about your origins just pay your taxes and have the decency to try learning the local language (English, hell, I'll even accept French) and I'll treat you as an equal, lol.
I checked and yep, sure enough, you're Canadian. 
I kid. Honestly, I feel much the way you do (though I would add "don't be a jerk" to that list of criteria). I don't even mind the language thing so much--I only want people to recognize that refusing to learn the local language is opening yourself up for a world of unnecessary difficulty (such as reading signs, shopping, jobs, etc.) that's pretty much unavoidable. Living in Seattle, where we have like 200 languages represented in the city, it's just not feasible to put anything more than the bare essentials (like tax forms) into your preferred idiom.
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I'd honestly be surprised if social values are globally consistent across Faerūn. Some cities, even some neighbourhoods, might treat halflings like citizens while others might treat them like vermin.
Indeed. I was speaking in generalities--I think it's pretty clear that the Realms has noticeably fewer "hang ups" in re: sex and such. As for how they treat a particular race, that would indeed vary from region to region, I imagine similarly to how we in the RW treat particular ethnic groups.
quote:
But how does an elf feel when he sees his beloved only daughter being seduced by some graceless unsophisticated human monkey who's barely two decades old?
Well, it involves the ancient bladesinger sword he has inherited from his millennia old family and said knave's face, is what it does. 
quote:
How does a human father react when his daughter elopes with a firebreathing armoured reptile?
That's just a Dragon & Juliet story waiting to happen.
quote:
How does a dwarven father react when his eldest son abandons the forge to spend time with some tiefling scamp?
Well, at least she has fire resistance--a smith's gotta respect that. The horns are probably an issue, though.
quote:
I fear their reactions would be based largely on racial judgements.
And as Drizzt's amazing success shows us, fantasy's built in racial allegory machine can be extremely effective.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 02 Feb 2011 17:16:22 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 17:09:01
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My reply for dwarf and human couples remains pretty much the same, except I think humans would accept that more readily than dwarves.
I believe the proprietor of the Mighty Manticore in Waterdeep, Izmeel Coopercan, is rumored to be half-dwarf. And I'm also pretty sure that FR11 Dwarves Deep discussed half-dwarves.
Edit: Someone beat me to the FR11 reference. That's what happens when you post from work, between calls.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Feb 2011 17:28:06 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 17:24:30
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Dragon & Juliet. I just don't know what to say. That's awful. 
The tiefling scamp with fire-resistance would obviously be named Cinderella. I don't even want to think about the Trollpunzel love story. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 17:39:27
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Y'know, I just gotta say that since we live in a world where an entire segment of the entertainment industry is built around the concept of teenage girls hooking up with ancient, blood-drinking undead, I don't think one partner being a lot shorter than another makes for that odd a couple.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 17:50:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Y'know, I just gotta say that since we live in a world where an entire segment of the entertainment industry is built around the concept of teenage girls hooking up with ancient, blood-drinking undead, I don't think one partner being a lot shorter than another makes for that odd a couple.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 18:38:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
Y'know, I just gotta say that since we live in a world where an entire segment of the entertainment industry is built around the concept of teenage girls hooking up with ancient, blood-drinking undead, I don't think one partner being a lot shorter than another makes for that odd a couple.
But . . . but he's like so SENSITIVE. And BROODY! And OMG, I'm totally a vampire now, yays!
(And what's up with a werewolf being in love with an unborn child? talk about your icky.)
And now, back to your regularly scheduled topic.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 19:45:32
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| I see no problem with the story, depending on how it is written might become the oncome factor. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 19:57:05
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My thoughts at the suggestion of a Halfling-Human relationship in the Realms run along the lines of questions:
*Where in the Realms exactly will it take place? An isolated region, a town, a fortified structure, a city-state, within the borders of a nation like Cormyr?
*How will that location affect the relationship or govern it? Will local bias, local law or local custom interfere or support the relationship or not?
*Will we get to learn about cultural mores and any conflict between Human and Halfling-held beliefs (social, religious, racial) an inter-species relationship might cause to come into conflict?
*How did the relationship start? Combat, during a bout of Halfling tossing [something done in Waterdeep at parties], by chance encounter, seduction, ulterior motive?
*Will these be the main characters featured in the story or are they secondary?
*Will their relationship come to an end and if so, how? Death, betrayal, loss of interest, irreconcilable differences, war or calamity causing them to take opposing sides, kidnapping, disappearance?
*Will the author surprise me with a perspective on the topic I havent considered? Or will the story be less than unique, so I could substitute a Human for the Halfling and basically tell the story without any changes to it?
It was stated earlier that the Realms are just different when it comes to interspecies relationships. This is something I know (though the average reader might not) so this basic concept is what I expect to guide any story regarding a Human-Halfling relationship.
To me the subject isnt icky and the practical mechanics of intercourse dont matter* nearly as much as the questions Ive posed above. Just give me the answers to those questions in the course of the story and wrap it around some good, original Realmslore.
*In fact theyre not really relevant to the story. Theyre both Humanoids; I dont need to know how it all works. Leave that to the reader and their imaginationor lack thereofunless the editor really wants to go there in order to show how the romance drives this couple to overcome any sort of hardship they face together. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 02 Feb 2011 20:05:06 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 20:10:23
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Good questions, Mr. M--it sounds like you're asking "is it significant or just a throw-away gig?", in which latter case you probably shouldn't bother.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
To me the subject isnt icky and the practical mechanics of intercourse dont matter* nearly as much as the questions Ive posed above. Just give me the answers to those questions in the course of the story and wrap it around some good, original Realmslore.
*In fact theyre not really relevant to the story. Theyre both Humanoids; I dont need to know how it all works. Leave that to the reader and their imaginationor lack thereofunless the editor really wants to go there in order to show how the romance drives this couple to overcome any sort of hardship they face together.
Well, I will say that one of my fellow writers advanced the concept of said halfling seeking the aid of a tinker gnome of his acquaintence . . . but let's leave it there. Imagination is the better part of wit.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2011 : 20:15:12
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| I think I'd advise steering far away from any steam-powered tinker gnome machinery designed for that application. The consequences could be terrible. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 00:09:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I think I'd advise steering far away from any steam-powered tinker gnome machinery designed for that application. The consequences could be terrible.
Lantan still has a notable and significant human presence, who are mostly quite intuitive and capable of innovative technological design on their own as members of Gond's faithful.
Almost everyone seems to forget about them. I suppose in this case, humans are the "forgotten folk." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 00:41:48
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Thinking a bit more on this, I came to a realization that many people that play D&D these days don't remember the days when halflings were predominantly a short round human.
I know that sounds simplistic, but it is true. Halflings, especially in the Forgotten Realms, were indeed so closely affiliated with humanity that the two could seldom be seen seperately where halflings were to be found at all.
With the coming of the "Kender Shaped" Halflings...well, things changed a lot!
Myself, I have refused to allow Halflings in my games be anything other than how they were originally used in the Forgotten Realms/D&D back in 1st Edition. Kender belong in Krynn...
Now, as to how that relates to the topic at hand, essentially looking at a halfling simply renders a short...yet ADULT looking...human. So in that context, I see nothing wrong at all.
As to dwarves and humans...whatever floats your boat eh?  |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 03 Feb 2011 00:42:14 |
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Synthalus
Learned Scribe
USA
170 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 01:08:09
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| As long as the halfling females name isn't bridget i'm down with it! LOL |
"That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die."
H.P. Lovecraft (The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 02:13:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Thinking a bit more on this, I came to a realization that many people that play D&D these days don't remember the days when halflings were predominantly a short round human.
I know that sounds simplistic, but it is true. Halflings, especially in the Forgotten Realms, were indeed so closely affiliated with humanity that the two could seldom be seen seperately where halflings were to be found at all.
With the coming of the "Kender Shaped" Halflings...well, things changed a lot!
Myself, I have refused to allow Halflings in my games be anything other than how they were originally used in the Forgotten Realms/D&D back in 1st Edition. Kender belong in Krynn...
Now, as to how that relates to the topic at hand, essentially looking at a halfling simply renders a short...yet ADULT looking...human. So in that context, I see nothing wrong at all.
As to dwarves and humans...whatever floats your boat eh?
I have to disagree... The Finder's Stone trilogy came pretty early in the published history of the Realms, and Olive Ruskettle was neither round nor described as being unusual for not having that shape. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 02:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Thinking a bit more on this, I came to a realization that many people that play D&D these days don't remember the days when halflings were predominantly a short round human.
I know that sounds simplistic, but it is true. Halflings, especially in the Forgotten Realms, were indeed so closely affiliated with humanity that the two could seldom be seen seperately where halflings were to be found at all.
With the coming of the "Kender Shaped" Halflings...well, things changed a lot!
Myself, I have refused to allow Halflings in my games be anything other than how they were originally used in the Forgotten Realms/D&D back in 1st Edition. Kender belong in Krynn...
Now, as to how that relates to the topic at hand, essentially looking at a halfling simply renders a short...yet ADULT looking...human. So in that context, I see nothing wrong at all.
As to dwarves and humans...whatever floats your boat eh?
I have to disagree... The Finder's Stone trilogy came pretty early in the published history of the Realms, and Olive Ruskettle was neither round nor described as being unusual for not having that shape.
I'm glad we can disagree. Olive wasn't unusual, no...but nor was she the "common" halfling as described in ye ol' box o' grey; nor that described in the Monster Manual on page 50:
"Halflings are basically hard-working, ordlerly and peaceful citizens of communities similar to humans..." (I'll admit that is talking about their communities; but it shows a similarity to humans)..."Of ruddy complexion, halflings tend toward brown or sandy brown hair colorations...Tallfellow: A taller (4 +'), slimmer halfling, with fairer skin and hair..."
This to me meant that the Tallfellows were dang near the height of short humans, as humans could be shorter than five feet in height.
So to me, the lines between Halflings THEN and what are passing for Halflings NOW are far different...thus my feeling that a tall halfling and a short human may very well have not been distinguishable one beside the other.
Olive, well, perhaps she just had a bit of Tallfellow in her after all... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 03 Feb 2011 02:32:13 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 04:30:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Synthalus
As long as the halfling females name isn't bridget i'm down with it! LOL
Why? Bridget is pretty, and it has nothing to do with her size. Old-school porn-star midgets were pretty... gruesome. She actually changed my mind about 'little people' being 'weird looking'. I think I even used her as a reference here at the keep once (and got in trouble with Wooly for posing a link). I would have to say she disproves my own bias of 'kink', since I find her attractive despite her size (and NOT because of it).
I normally prefer my women quite a bit taller, but she has broadened my horizons, so to speak. Ergo, I would have to say that any story Erik does featuring such a couple would be fine, since I am sure he would handle it with class (PLEASE avoid the Tinker-Gnome thing, or the 'classy' aspect may go out the window).
If you DO use the Tinker-Gnome in-story, I would say only use it as an off-hand comment by the halfling to an overly inquisitive human, which may or may not be entirely true (thus getting you off the hook in regards to the taudry aspect). I can then see the human looking at the female and saying "He was joking, wasn't he?", and her just smiling demurely and walking away. 
When in doubt, take a page from the 'Ed-handbook'... leave the reader unsure about what really happened. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Feb 2011 04:34:52 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 11:59:00
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There's far too much knowledge about porn-star midgets in here lol. Hey, female halflings are the perfect height, especially if you're tall....
Ummm anyways, if a Halfling and a Human have a child, is said child a Quarterling??? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 12:04:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
There's far too much knowledge about porn-star midgets in here lol. Hey, female halflings are the perfect height, especially if you're tall....
Ummm anyways, if a Halfling and a Human have a child, is said child a Quarterling???
Three-fourthsling? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 12:30:11
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May I bring some math into this subject? Thanks...
So I am the father of a 3ft tall human female. She is slim for her age, weighing in at 32 lbs or so. I think she has the potential to be quite tall, so for simplicity's sake, let's say she will top out at 6ft. If she kept her current appearance and were simply scaled up by a factor of 2, her weight would scale with the cube. So she would weigh 32x2^3 or 256lbs. That's certainly within the realm of possibility but I (and medical science) would no longer consider her slim.
Alternatively, if you took a tall woman with an adventurer's build, say 6ft, 160lbs (again for simplicity's sake) and scaled her down to 3ft, she'd weigh 20lbs. That's really really little.
Obviously something's up. I think I can say, (with mathematical certainty!) there is a difference between a 4yr old and miniature 25 yr old. A fact for which I am quite grateful as the father of a 4 yr old.
My advice to WotC if they are thinking of introducing the potential for a human male, halfling female romance would be to feature said female halfling on the cover, and make it extremely obvious she is actually a small curvy woman. And then have the couple find a mage to do some transmuting, because no matter how in love they are, she probably weighs less than 20lbs, and that's just silly.
And just to be extra safe, I'd skip Halflings and go straight to pixies, because I think that crosses the line to truly absurd and thus non threatening. Though of course Rule whatever still applies, I'm sure.
As for the non physical aspects, Halflings are much more accessible to humans than any of the other races. They hang out together, share culture, live similar lifespans. I could see a lasting relationship forming easily. As a comparison, humans and elves are radically different. Human/elf relationships are all about guys wanting a girl who is forever young and writers not thinking too realistically about the elf. That's why there aren't any major "romanceable" races with shorter lifespans than humans, because it would get people really thinking. "I love her, she's great, but she'll be dead before my kids are out of grade school. Oh gods, it's worse than that, our kids will only live to be 35!"
The only race I can think of like that are Centaurs, and I left my standard issue 10 ft pole at home. So I'm not touching that.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 13:17:21
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A problem with the math is that it assumes halflings and humans have no differences other than scale. Halflings might be similar to humans but they aren't humans: they have different builds and body types, different musculature and proportions, etc. Game descriptions place them closer to around 40-50 pounds, which is still really tiny but much less incompatible than 20 pounds.
I do recall halflings being thought of more as rounder in early D&D. Though they're not actually described that way in the text, maybe they were depicted as such in some of the sourcebook/magazine artwork. Or quite probably influenced by the pudgy hobbits in the (1978) animated Lord of the Rings film. Halflings were described as somewhat more slender and athletic in 2E, very much like the 1E Kender were. I know they've been "sexed up" in 4E (though the designers despise that description).
So a human and a halfling fall in love. Big deal. I somehow doubt D&D authors will describe the arrangement inappropriately or in sufficient sordid and erotic detail to pervert PG13 readers. As hormonal as those kids might be, they'll probably focus on the game stats more than the romance. The unsophistication of youth makes things easier in some ways, allowing authors to convey layers of "adult" meaning the younger audience won't perceive. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 15:10:50
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I was tired when I posted last night, so my point may not have come across correctly.
Basically, the gist of it is that I am not 'into' little people, but if the right one came along I suppose I could overlook anything, because at the end of the day being able to get along counts for a LOT more then physical attraction.
Oh, and in 4e halflings are 4' tall now, so that's not nearly as bad. You may have to give them the 'rounder' appearance of the old-school halflings though to make it work. Ozzalum makes an excellent point about weight distribution, and the logistics of such a coupling could get very... damaging?
The thought of a female halfling 'on the bottom' is still disturbing to me, and the male halfling 'on top' is just too comical. Erik, you really have your work cut out for you to pull this off.
If you look at one of the old novel covers there is a pic of Olive Ruskettle, and she looks very pretty and very much an adult, despite her size, so a great artist will go a long way in delivering the correct message. Note she is 'full-figured' (Classic 'hour glass'), but certainly not 'fat'. I understand you plan for the male to be the halfling, but I'm not sure how to make a tiny little man look more... manly.
Bear in mind it is canonical (in several settings) that urban halflings are considered great thieves because they can appear as children, so their is an unpleasant precedent set in canon lore in that regard. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Feb 2011 14:56:02 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2011 : 16:06:49
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Oh, I'm not doing a human x halfling romance (wow, that sounded bad!) in my novel--it was just a fun hypothetical.
I think the math on human height/weight ratios is a little wonky. Weight doesn't scale in a consistent way with height, particularly as you get to higher heights. My doctor, for instance, was convinced I was constantly overweight after I hit about 6'2, when in reality I was quite appropriate for my shape (even slender). I am currently 6'7", weigh about 250 lbs, and to look at me, you'd probably think I was the right weight for my height. (A lot of people are surprised when I tell them I weight that much--I really don't look like it.)
As the body grows, you physiognomy changes, altering your weight drastically. Men get more muscle, which is heavier, so they tend to be heavier than women. Also, the taller you get, the more variability in weight you have: how else does one explain 6 foot tall supermodels who weigh under 120? I don't know how heavy a 6 foot tall woman is *supposed* to be, but I don't think it's unreasonable for her to be anywhere in the 120-200 scale, or even above that.
As for the halfling scoundrel in my book, if you picture a 4-ft Johnny Depp with filed teeth in an outfit that is half Jack Sparrow, half Bill the Butcher, that's more along the lines.
And in his case, it's definitely not the size that counts, but how you use it.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Halfling x Human Romance: Icky? Discuss!
