| Author |
 Topic  |
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 03:05:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
One can gain wisdom and insight, and even maturity, without loosing one's ideals. That seems to be what Drizzt is doing- in hiding from his pain by fighting, he is forgetting WHY he fights, looking for any excuse to get into battle, just to avoid having to deal with his losses- or perhaps he is trying to get himself killed, to be with them again? A bit of self-destructive survivor's guilt would not surprise me in the least. It's almost like he's got a death wish, or is just tired of living already. [...] THAT'S what it looks like he's becoming- the same bitter, rage-filled killing -machine that Zaknafein wished for him NOT to be.
I agree with the death wish thing.
But I don't see that he's lost his ideals. He's just fighting to avoid thinking and letting himself feel pain. The ideals are probably still in there, but pain-avoidance is taking precedence to ideal-pursuit right now.
quote:
That leads into- by turning into what he hates, I meant that Drizzt has been fighting purely out of rage, hate, and desire to hunt/fight, which is in fact the typical mindset of most drow in Menzo. In his early days he fought only when he felt he HAD to- now, he does it at the drop of a hat- just like every other drow in Menzo!
I'm confused about the quintessential nature of the drow. At times, we've been told that they fight without passion. That seems to preclude rage, which is a pretty passionate emotion. Other times, we've been told that they fight, torture, and kill with sadistic glee. So I don't know what the typical drow mindset is really supposed to be.
Drizzt seems to be settling for just one emotion--rage--because it's easiest for him right now, and also because it allows him to block out grief. It's a prologed anger phase of the grieving cycle.
Could he become the next Zak? Maybe.
But I don't think we've been given signs of that, yet. Drizzt hasn't felt trapped and anchored to any one spot like Zak, for starters. He's angry, but he's also still searching for an outlet. On the other hand, Zak gave up.
And if The Orc King's Prologue view of the near future is still to be taken seriously, then it would appear that Drizzt will become altruistic once again, soon enough.
quote:
He saw the rage and bitter hatred taking over Drizzt- whom He's always admired not for being an independent operator, which he is himself, since his band is not even affiliated with any one House, but because he was able to throw off the bonds of the Matrons and Lolth herself
I disagree that Jarlaxle is that independent of an operator, or that he has been able to throw off the bonds of the Matrons. His wanderlust takes him away from Menzo and Bregan D'aerthe from time to time, but he keeps returning home. He never really breaks those bonds--he just stretches them out.
I think that Jarlaxle idealizes the ability to actually break them. Notice that he guesses that one of the reasons Dahlia turned her back on Thay was that, perhaps, she grew tired of the fate of perpetual subjugation to Szass Tam. This is one of the notions that crosses Jarlaxle's mind, even though he doesn't really know Dahlia all that well. That made me think that he could've been projecting some of his own personal views onto the elven young woman.
And given that, along with the apparently continued greed and willingness to steal that he displayed in the novel, methinks that Jar's disappointment with Drizzt is that his death wish may undermine the entire notion that a male can successfully break the bonds. Jar is upset that Drizzt is undermining Jar's ideals--not Drizzt's moralistic ones.
quote:
But he also does care about others, to some extent, and seeing a friend start to turn away from his ideals seems to be upsetting him.
It's still hard for me to see Jar as concerned about Drizzt being less than altruistic, when Jar himself was rip-raring ready to go out to a lost dwarven homeland and gank some booty, knowing full well that Bruenor was seeking Gauntlgrym himself at the same time. Jar doesn't seem moved by altruism.
While he didn't like the fact that Sylora had caused the destruction of Neverwinter, he wasn't moved to really do anything about it. He was ticked at Sylora personally for having manipulated his friend Arthrogate, moreso than sad for the town.
What motivated him to do something about the danger to Luskan was that that city was still marginally profitable to Bregan D'aerthe, and profit could not be compromised. We're not told that he cared for the well-being of the Luskar people, as much as the goods that he stood to gain or lose from them.
quote:
In the sense that he knows and accepts his own motivations, Jarlaxle is more level-headed than Drizzt at this point, as Drizzt doesn't even know WHY he's been fighting so much! So, yes, within his own moral fabric, Jarl's, got a straighter head on. Drizzy's just confused and angry, and not thinking clearly.
I disagree that Jar knows and accepts his own motivations and has a straigter head on. He was effectively competing with Bruenor for Gauntlgrym's treasure, but keeping it secret, and yet he turned around and passed himself as an ally to the dwarven hero in Part 2. And in the end, he mourned the loss of Bruenor. So which is the real Jarlaxle?
Jar called Artemis a friend, and acknowledged that Entreri was dead, but Bregan D'aerthe paraded Barrabus's lover in front of him to threaten him into rejoining the band, and left the assassin fearing for his safety should he ever return to Luskan. That's some kind of "friend".
Drizzt is avoiding pain, and masking it with rage and bloodlust. He knows it, too. In the one Drizzt Diary entry, he admits that he is lying to himself when he claims that he has moved past the pain and the sadness.
This does not strike me as confusion or ignorance about his motivations, in the least. Sure, it seems oddly prolonged if it's just a phase of his grieving process. But part of that can be attributed to the fact that WOTC required RAS to cover a lot of time in the novel, which left Drizzt in an emotional limbo.
quote:
Yes, he's not perfect. But it was just sort of sad how quickly he gave up when he didn't see anything, and then walked right by the very thing he was looking for- PROOF!
Aye, 'twas sad--tragic, even.
But I wouldn't want to smack him over the head for it! 'Twasn't his fault. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
 |
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2011 : 04:13:56
|
Okay- first, to clarify. What I meant earlier is that although Jarlaxle is an independent operator (and CAN leave for good any time he wishes- he just chooses NOT to), It's DRIZZT who was the one to "throw off the bonds" and truly follow his own path, outside the rules and society of Menzo. Jarlaxle seems perfectly content to remain affiliated with his family to some extent, which says that he might actually have some loyalty to his own House- at least as a recourse to exploit, if nothing else. He's always looking for ways to profit, after all, and that's a pretty big incentive to play both sides of the field. Drizzt has no reason to remain tied to the place, on the other hand- which seems to be something Jarlaxle is envious of. He LIKES where he is, but at the same time, he wishes he could just say to heck with it all, like Drizzt did! (Damned if you do, damned if you don't....) And I don't see his disappointment as being with Drizzt undermining Jar's notions, so much as that heDrizzt) has pretty much turned into his father, which I think Jarlaxle sees as a little depressing.
Now, regarding his caring for others: Of course his main reasons for helping Luskan were less than altruistic- he's a shameless mercenary! That said, he DOES in fact care for Drizzt (he showed definite concern for both him and Cat in The Ghost King), and he seems to genuinely care about Athrogate as a friend, as well. He really DID want to help Athrogate find a way to put things right after Neverwinter's destruction- he saw how it had affected the dwarf, and yes, he had a personal grudge against Sylora at stake, too. But that seems to have almost been a side-note for him this time around. Helping his friends meant helping the nameless masses of Luskan- which would of course benefit him, as well. There's ALWAYS a method to his thinking.... Oh, and what's wrong with a little profit along the way? So he was being a bit greedy about the treasure- that WAS sort of the reason he went on the venture in the fist place, y'know.
Also, we're not actually told that Jarlaxle had a direct hand in the band's dealings with Entreri in that matter. For all we know, his lieutenants might have kept that bit of information from him. They ARE after all, drow, and are prone to keeping the juiciest bits for themselves. I suspect that there was something else going on there, and we just haven't seen it yet. But Jarlaxle has always had an odd soft spot where Entreri is concerned, meddling in his life in ways that made him into a better person, even though Artemis KNEW what Jarlaxle was doing to him half the time! (And yet, he allowed it.... Kinda makes you wonder whether he was ever really all that annoyed by it after all.)
I suppose my thinking that Drizzt is confused stems from the contradictory way he dscusses the subject in his diary. He says he has moved past it, then he admits he's not, and he smiles at old memories, then turns around and almost breaks down in tears at the same. Seems to me like the poor guy is just an emotional mess. Forty years later.... (Urgh- can someone PLEASE just slap him and tell him to gett on with his life?!) And this after Innovindil had even given him advice to live for the present, instead of dwelling on past losses when they happen. Was he even listening? It doesn't seem like it. It's as if he completely forgot everything she said to him. And now it takes Jarlaxle shoving him into a wall to remind him of that. And yes, he's hiding in rage and battle-lust, but I'm not entirely sure he actually knows why. He admits that it keeps him from thinking about his loss, but the question is why is he so afraid to think about it? I'm not sure he knows. It's not like he didn't have a chance to say goodbye- he had that last night with Cattie-Brie before she and Regis took off on that unicorn and died. So he KNOWS they're in a better place. So why the reluctance to move on? After forty years? Seems like he's afraid to let go- and yet he wants to get away from it at the same time. Ergo- confused. Tied up in knots. Unable to think straight. Which is why I think he needs a good slap to get his head back on.
Not sure if that bit from Orc King is really still applicable, or if it'll get over-written somehow, but it really didn't paint a very altruistic picture of Drizzt, to me. More like more bitterness and remorse, grief, etc- just dulled down to a state of semi-depression and perma-pessimism. He might have found his moral center again, but he seemed kinda cynical to me in that entry.
Yes, it was tragic that he missed it, tragic in the sense that even after all he'd heard, he just gave up and walked off. Without even waiting around to see if the vale might show up again. And missing the scrimshaw just clinched it. He basically decided that there was nothing to find, even though the tales he'd heard proved otherwise. I guess it just makes me want to facepalm, and drag him back to tie him to the tree until he spots it! (But that's just me, I guess, lol!)
|
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 05:32:24
|
Is Szass Tam's participation quite significant? If you were to make an estimate, about how many pages was he actually featured in, or mentioned? Ten? Twenty? Thirty? Sorry if this sounds stupid. I just want to know what's the mad lich doing these days. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 05:44:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Is Szass Tam's participation quite significant? If you were to make an estimate, about how many pages was he actually featured in, or mentioned? Ten? Twenty? Thirty? Sorry if this sounds stupid. I just want to know what's the mad lich doing these days.
Read the book and you will know... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 05:46:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Is Szass Tam's participation quite significant? If you were to make an estimate, about how many pages was he actually featured in, or mentioned? Ten? Twenty? Thirty? Sorry if this sounds stupid. I just want to know what's the mad lich doing these days.
Read the book and you will know...
I hate surprises. I want to know beforehand. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 06:11:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Is Szass Tam's participation quite significant? If you were to make an estimate, about how many pages was he actually featured in, or mentioned? Ten? Twenty? Thirty? Sorry if this sounds stupid. I just want to know what's the mad lich doing these days.
Read the book and you will know...
I hate surprises. I want to know beforehand.
Well I cant help you anyways. I quit reading Drizzit after The Orc King... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 06:35:55
|
I bet you'll eventually resume reading Drizzt.
---
I once quit reading Feist, after his collaborations with certain writers, or more like his ghost writers. But certain events did COMPEL me to return to the world of Midkemia. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 08:32:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I bet you'll eventually resume reading Drizzt.
---
I once quit reading Feist, after his collaborations with certain writers, or more like his ghost writers. But certain events did COMPEL me to return to the world of Midkemia.
Probably will... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 22:08:20
|
| Tam's presence participates and communicates with his agent Sylora Salm for maybe a half-dozen pages, and his name is thrown in here and there as a background power dozens of times. But in this book, he's mostly a REMF, sending his troops forth, and it's those troops who get the limelight. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 03:45:29
|
I see. I don't think it's worth the bother. But thanks, anyway, Beast. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Drizzt DoUrden37
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 08:34:36
|
| I love all the feedback about the book Gauntlgrym. Szass Tam will play a more dominant role as the series moves forth. Pretty soon all liches on Toril will be major players in fact. |
"I bring my blades Twinkle and Icing Death by name with me and Guenhwyvar is my only companion again. I trust in them and nothing else." |
|
|
|
Drizzt DoUrden37
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2011 : 08:45:26
|
| I look forward to more comments about where the series is going. |
"I bring my blades Twinkle and Icing Death by name with me and Guenhwyvar is my only companion again. I trust in them and nothing else." |
|
|
|
Drizzt DoUrden37
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2011 : 07:04:07
|
| Where did everyone go? |
"I bring my blades Twinkle and Icing Death by name with me and Guenhwyvar is my only companion again. I trust in them and nothing else." |
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2011 : 18:03:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Drizzt DoUrden37
Where did everyone go?
Most of us discussed this book months and months ago, and are currently discussing other more fresh topics |
|
|
|
jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2012 : 21:47:27
|
Any clues towards the true identity of the Duke Bruenor vanquished? The Mace he wielded should still be floating around somewhere. The Duke himself has 100 years or so the reform in Hell correct?
|
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2012 : 06:19:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Any clues towards the true identity of the Duke Bruenor vanquished?
Valindra Shadowmantle summoned him forth, and she called him Beealtimatuche (Gauntlgrym). This would appear to mean that that was his true name.
quote:
The Mace he wielded should still be floating around somewhere.
When Bruenor cleaved the pit fiend's head in two and drove him to the ground, the devil nevertheless still tried to stand up. If the devil could do this, then could it likewise still manage to hold on to its mace?
Bruenor threw the pit fiend over the cliff down into the maw of the fire primordial. If the devil was indeed still holding onto it, then that mace went right over, with it.
Now, I will also say that the MM (1E) said that pit fiends are immune to fire. So I don't know if the fire primordial's flames would have any effect on the devil, beyond already having its material head torn asunder. I imagine that a pissed-off primordial could rip the rest of that pit fiend's body into pieces--I haven't read about any particular immunity to that!
And who's gonna go bobbing for maces in a fire primordial's pit?  
quote:
The Duke himself has 100 years or so the reform in Hell correct?
I've read that on the internet, but I don't know if it's true.
The MM additionally said that vanquished devils only face 9 or 10 years of torment in the Hells, after which there is a chance to regain status. Under those guidelines, a pit fiend duke of the Nine Hells such as this should be able to be return in a decade or so (1473 DR).
But I don't know if that lore has been superceded or not. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 29 Jul 2012 06:24:58 |
|
|
|
Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2012 : 11:13:25
|
| I always heard that it was a 100 years, that sounds much cooler and occult than a couple of decades anyway. |
|
|
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 21:38:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I always heard that it was a 100 years, that sounds much cooler and occult than a couple of decades anyway.
They are banished from the prime material plane for a hundred years, regardless of how long (or short) a time it takes them to regather themselves in hell. |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 05:09:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
They are banished from the prime material plane for a hundred years, regardless of how long (or short) a time it takes them to regather themselves in hell.
What we're looking for is a source. It's clear about demons, but not so much about devils. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 14:11:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
They are banished from the prime material plane for a hundred years, regardless of how long (or short) a time it takes them to regather themselves in hell.
What we're looking for is a source. It's clear about demons, but not so much about devils.
I always assumed it was the same for both. Time for a bit of digging methinks. |
|
|
|
Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2012 : 13:10:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
They are banished from the prime material plane for a hundred years, regardless of how long (or short) a time it takes them to regather themselves in hell.
What we're looking for is a source. It's clear about demons, but not so much about devils.
I always assumed it was the same for both. Time for a bit of digging methinks.
Let us know if you find out. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Gauntlgrym -- Chapters 19 - 24 & Epilogue
