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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 04:39:08
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| I never quite got that either. So where did all the steel go? Steel is made from iron and carbon, nickel, or other minerals, so unless the component metals had somehow been lost, I don't see how that could happen. Steel is not a basic metal, it's an alloy. The only way I can see it becoming that rare and valuable is if the iron deposits all sank in the Cataclysm when Istar was destroyed. Which would only happen if it was the major source of iron. Considering that iron is the most abundant element on an earth-like planet (one assumes) that seems hard to swallow. It's the most COMMON mineral there is! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 05:33:20
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Races of Ansalon provides some details on this. I'll dig it out, and send both you and Wooly a PM with the quoted details. It really makes the entire situation entirely more reasonable. [Plus, I think we've deviated far enough from the actual topic of this scroll.  ] |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 08 Feb 2011 05:34:31 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 06:51:04
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Well, the topic was coinage (which I read as wealth), so it is sort of relevant from a basic D&D standpoint. Not so much a deviation as an extension. ;) I'd like to see how they explained that, as it seems to make little sense unless one wishes to believe in a rather drastic alteration of the basic rules of geology and metallurgy. As far as I know, Krynn was the only world that ever did anything like that. I just don't see how an otherwise abundant resource would suddenly disappear or dwindle to such small quantities that it would become that valuable, especially when it is one that is used for just about everything. Platinum or nickel would have made more sense, if they wanted to use something other than gold. I use adamantium in one of the kingdoms of my own campaigns, but only for that region- all others still use the gold piece standard. Even cinnabar (from Red Steel) would have made more sense.
That may have been one of the reasons I eventually lost interest in Krynn as a setting- not only were they constantly at war with Tahkisis and her dragon armies (which I found exhausting to read, and rather boring after a while) but their monetary standard for commerce seemed almost illogical, and was never explained to any reasonable degree. Then again, I mostly read the novels, and only one or two of the DL source-books, as by the time I knew of it as a game setting, I had already lost interest. And since my only real reason for interest in it in the first place was Tasselhoff and Flint, once they were out of the picture, I quickly moved on to other worlds- like Faerun. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 08:00:23
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Our Krynn campaign had lots of bronze instead of steel. Iron (and therefore steel made from it) was said to be rare, and have great military value, so items containing iron were often melted down and few pig iron or low-grade steel weapons/armours were made (the metal was too valuable for junk and so always reworked into better steels). Steel "coins" were each worth about a silver by weight, though this jumped to gold values during times of war. Carbon is obviously available everywhere, while nickel (and other metals) would only be present in the "fine steel" alloys. Maybe this isn't canon; our DM insisted that steel pieces could not be worth the same as copper because bronze (copper-tin alloy) was cheaper than steel.
I actually prefer the global base 10:1 ratio for pp:gp:sp:cp coins, not very realistic at all but so much simpler. I make liberal use of different coinages (and trade bars, etc), and I'm a real bastard about oddball foreign/ancient/weird coins and currencies often not having a simple face value when my players bring them to market. Some of my players buy such coinages from each other, holding on to them indefinitely to get the best price (cashing letters of credit at the place of issue, selling Waterdhavian Moons in Waterdeep, etc); while my other players rather just liquidate and convert such loot into common/convenient currencies (and also not waste their time haggling over their coinage values).
The first group of players tends to meticulously tally every copper thumb, while the second group tends to utterly disregard anything less valuable than golden lions. So they flash and drop gold coins (and don't want the change) every time they buy a meal, stable their horse, talk to a peasant, etc. Ironically, they are the ones who attract all the beggars, pickpockets, muggers, con artists, merchant scams, and other problems ... leaving the cheap & discreet PCs (who surprisingly carry much more money) comparatively untroubled.
I'm all for moneychangers and moneylenders and their (occasionally criminal) percentages and interest rates. Medieval and renaissance banking systems were very different from modern ones (financial "institutions" were local, usury was prohibited by the Church, interest was fixed by the state/monarch, etc) ... but just as in the modern times, bankers and investors aggressively used their money to make more money and installed themselves as middlemen in everyone else's pockets through a variety of "services". |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2011 08:26:10 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 10:58:29
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About electrum ...
It's an alloy, roughly 40-45% gold and 55-60% silver (exact percentages vary and likely contain small metal impurities).
My PCs own land and title (Sentinel Keep in the North, initially sponsored as vassals to Luskan), and they sometimes commission runs of minted hexagonal* coinage for local use by the citizens of their eternally troubled Keep. They also maintain a state-sponsored "Public Currency Office" which works with merchant (and thief) guilds to set official "fair exchange" rates, convert currencies, detect and remove counterfeits from circulation, etc.
* This is a "dwarven" innovation in my Realms. The coins are all uniform hexagons and have interlocking (LEGO-like) features on their faces, so they stack together very nicely in a compact and stable manner. Plus "shaved", "thinned", undersized, mismatched, or poorly-stamped counterfeits are easier to visually detect.
The players worked out that 40 gold coins plus 60 silver coins (total cost 46 gold) could be minted into 100 electrum coins (total value 50 gold), resulting in an easy profit (4 coppers per 4/6-alloyed coin) when many such coins are minted. So their mint stamps out tons of these 4/6-electrum coins (colloquially called "bolts" because they depict a stylized image of the Keep's Lord Arcane, Athar Thunderstaff, hurling his trademark lightning magic), and they aggressively throw their "bolts" into circulation, replacing (and hoarding) foreign coinage (which has richer gold content).
"Bolts" are nominally worth the normal 5 silvers each within the Keep and immediate lands. But they aren't recognized at full value elsewhere. The "standard" electrum coinage in my Realms is 4/5-electrum (roughly 44/56%), which has the same "melted down" commodity value as its component metals (assuming 10 silver = 1 gold). The cities and merchants of the Lords' Alliance are well aware of (and can easily measure) the metal content in "bolts" and thus value them at only 4.6 silvers each (actually less, since they impose moneychanging fees and taxes). As a consequence, traveling merchants don't like taking "bolts" out of the Keep and thus convert them into other coinages; this conveniently liquidates the piles of loot the PCs bring in from adventuring, while generating yet more revenue from the conversion rates they charge. It also reduces attrition (and counterfeiting) of "bolts", which my greedy PCs have mixed feelings about (because they want to mint more). More savvy (and less ethical) merchants have devised all sorts of ways to make a little extra profit within the Keep through the exchange of "bolts" with higher-grade electrum, sometimes even melting the metals down for resale (through unofficial guild channels) to Sentinel Keep's mint.
Note that Sentinel Keep is, uh, not very good-aligned. Taxation is high and open worship of Waukeen is discouraged. Counterfeiters (and other criminals) face rather severe punishments when they're caught. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2011 14:38:51 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 13:17:56
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| Makes me wonder what did happen to electrum... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 13:29:48
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It was purged along with other unnecessary "complexities" when D&D shifted in emphasis towards global standardization. I suppose everybody knows (and expects) copper, silver, gold ... but electrum is just a tiny bit too esoteric and doesn't serve as critical coinage anyhow. I (and my players) know about electrum because the first time I saw the word I asked myself "huh?" and was forced to do a little research and learning on my own at the local libraries, a terrible inconvenience that recent editions have graciously removed.
The alloy's name is derived from elektro/elektos (the name of a Phoenician sun god, later said to be father of Baal), which was later adopted into Greek as the word elektron and Latin as electrum (both meaning "golden" or "amber"), from which our word electricity was *coined* (early discoverers generated tribostatic electricity by rubbing amber against other materials). Electrum coins (of varying alloy content) were used since ancient bronze age times, though had almost entirely fallen out of use by the late Medieval ages because merchants would rarely accept them at face value due to their varying and increasingly diluted gold content. ("Pure" silver and gold coinage could be quickly weighed and tested, whereas determining the actual gold/silver content of electrum involved the same weighing and testing, and immersion in water for a volume measurement, then some calculations to determine density and ratios.) |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Feb 2011 15:25:24 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Feb 2011 : 21:26:09
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| Those are some good ideas, Arik. In my campaigns, the country of Argonia where the adamantium coins are used is an Underdark drow kingdom, and the adamantium "orbben"(spiders) are worth aproximately two gold pieces there, but are hardly recognixed elsewhere, due to the fact that most people know where they come from, and are unwilling to deal with people who use them. There are smaller denominations in the normal silver and copper coins, but the orbben are seen as a symbol of status in the cities they were minted in. Gold is also used, but mainly for decoration or for the occasions when trade outside of Argonia is necessary. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 03:23:22
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I've read some rulebooks for the Earthdawn RPG (but never played it); it's not D&D, it's not Realms.
One of the interesting ideas in the game involves alloying miniscule amounts of elemental matter into metal objects (small amounts of elemental stuff can be mined/harvested at special sites with some difficulty, it is exceedingly precious). Elemental earth can be alloyed into a metal to make it denser, stronger, more durable; air makes the metal lighter (used in some exotic throwing weapons so they fly further and more accurately); water makes metals more plastic and flexible (almost flowing like mercury, somewhat like Terminator poly-alloy); fire generates heat, sparks, and flames whenever the metal is struck (used in expensive flaming swords) ...
Elemental coins are sometimes minted, each being worth more than the finest gemstones (say, at least 1000gp or even 10000gp in D&D terms). These coins have distinct properties: air coins will briefly levitate when spun, earth coins land with a heavy percussive thump, water coins have swirling surfaces, fire coins are always warm to touch. The properties also depend on the metal they're alloyed into, be it gold, steel, adamantium, or whatever.
Multiple elements can be mixed in any given chunk of metal, although it is difficult and requires master smiths skilled in certain alchemical secrets. Failure or misjudgement can be bad (for example: Earthdawn has guns and cannons, and they use a mixture of elemental air and fire as the explosive propellant). The trace elemental content of just a few coins can have dramatic effects on an entire suit of armour; monolithic airship platforms are constructed in this manner, great city fortresses are protected by element-saturated walls.
I just thought it's an interesting idea, and not incompatible with D&D. Such coins or metals wouldn't be commonplace by any means. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Feb 2011 04:40:04 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2011 : 22:46:06
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Extra-planar material is always worth more, provided it's not a sort that deteriorates or that somehow links to fiends. Elemental metal would be worth more in D&D because it responds well to some enchantments (and opposes others), even if it doesn't give any special Earthdawn-like elemental properties to an alloy.
Magical coins. An interesting notion.
Some sort of "signature" magic or aura from the mint could make coinage much more difficult to counterfeit (this might be practical if the magics could be cast on large batches of coins or metal). It might be visible to everywhere, or require the casting of some "resonant" cantrip to indicate genuine coins.
Even a simple continual light spell (modified to desired colour and intensity), magic mouth, or programmed illusion could make coins instantly recognizable and appealing: useful as minor light sources, or to indicate dead magic zones, or even for a little entertainment/education (the King might speak some brief message or be seen enacting a triumphant moment, perhaps even royally declare "heads!" whenever the coin is flipped, whatever) ... detect magic could be used to find money (and people might then line their strongboxes with lead plating), adventurers (and monsters) could see the distinctive shine of coinage at the end of a dungeon corridor ... some very interesting possibilities. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Feb 2011 22:50:13 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8035 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 01:38:13
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| Volo's Guide to All Things Magical says "gold has the important ability to hold multiple enchantments (even conflicting ones) and keep them from affecting each other ...". In your example, a coin of elemental gold might be able to simultaneously accept any number of listening coin spells, functioning as "receiver" for multiple "sensors" (or the reverse) — so coins could be given to the rest of the party, allowing the Bard to listen to all of their surroundings (a great way to eavesdrop clandestinely through multiple people) or to talk to them (issue orders during a burglary, maybe they strap the coins into their hats/masks and the Bard whispers). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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coinage
