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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 11:26:48
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It makes me think we won't see RAS do official writeups for Drizzt's stats in 3/3.5/4E like he did for 1E/2E.
We all have our D&D edition preferences, usually the one that introduced us to the game (or, in the case of core D&D game designers, which does not include RAS, the edition(s) they've invested the most work into). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 14:18:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It makes me think we won't see RAS do official writeups for Drizzt's stats in 3/3.5/4E like he did for 1E/2E.
There are already official write-ups for Drizzt in 3e/4e though im not suprised as many older players prefer systems that they started with. This doesnt mean RAS wont play 3e or 4e, just that prefers 1st. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2010 : 15:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It makes me think we won't see RAS do official writeups for Drizzt's stats in 3/3.5/4E like he did for 1E/2E
It'd be neet to see how he'd writeup Drizzt in 3E. Though I have to say Sean Reynold's writeup was a great example of the (then) new 3E system's multiclassing rules (FRCS p.177).
Dale Donovan and Stephen Kenson did an earlier writeup for WotC too.
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Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 26 Dec 2010 15:43:33 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 00:09:28
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Ed also plays with modified 2e rules, IIRC.
Both he and RAS disagreed with the 4e design-decisions when they were brought-in on the plan (at a GenCon, IIRC) - the two of them had to be talked-into being 'on board' with it.
I wish I knew how they felt about 3e during that change, but the interweb wasn't what it is now, and thanks to TSR's 'end of days' we don't know much about what was going on, regardless. I think 3e took many of us by surprise (I know I was, and pleasantly so).
But really, does ANYONE play ANY rules (even non-D&D) right out of the box? I'm sure Salvatore's own version of 1e isn't strictly by the book, either.
Which means everyone is playing with their own set of rules, that are based - in varying degrees - upon one edition or another. Just because RAS prefers one edition over another doesn't make it any more 'viable'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Dec 2010 00:09:57 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 00:42:39
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quote:
Originally posted by froglegg
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/105951-Drizzt-Creator-Prefers-First-Edition-Dungeons-Dragons
Well, what do you think about that?
John
Seems very sensible to me, role-playing wins over roll-playing and rule-playing every day of the week
But then again I am old and only vaguely remember "ye goode olde days"  
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 15:56:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It makes me think we won't see RAS do official writeups for Drizzt's stats in 3/3.5/4E like he did for 1E/2E.
There are already official write-ups for Drizzt in 3e/4e though im not suprised as many older players prefer systems that they started with. This doesnt mean RAS wont play 3e or 4e, just that prefers 1st.
There are no official write-ups in 4e. The one that was once in the CB was just an employee, non-designer, putting it in.
Edit to add, where is the source of the official disagreement with 4e? I need sources on this one as I have never heard Ed nor Bob talk about it. |
Edited by - Matt James on 27 Dec 2010 15:58:14 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 16:08:08
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I was curious about that, too. From what I've seen (online), Ed has been fairly exuberant about 4E at all the public events.
[Edit: Ed may play 2E - or whatever - in private, but from what I've seen he's embraced 4E ...] |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 27 Dec 2010 16:09:43 |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 21:47:42
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| Well, I don't honestly know either way (nor does it matter what they play), but I have never heard either rebuke it as was suggested here. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2010 : 23:14:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It makes me think we won't see RAS do official writeups for Drizzt's stats in 3/3.5/4E like he did for 1E/2E.
There are already official write-ups for Drizzt in 3e/4e though im not suprised as many older players prefer systems that they started with. This doesnt mean RAS wont play 3e or 4e, just that prefers 1st.
There are no official write-ups in 4e. The one that was once in the CB was just an employee, non-designer, putting it in.
Edit to add, where is the source of the official disagreement with 4e? I need sources on this one as I have never heard Ed nor Bob talk about it.
I thought the Hero Battle write-up in Dungeon #171 was the official 4E Drizzt? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 00:05:35
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| I wasn't saying the post-2E Drizzt writeups aren't official, just that they're not done by RAS (as far as I know). |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 07:21:17
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| Okay, I see now. Ashe, thanks for pointing that out. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 21:38:56
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:sigh:
here we go again...
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Both he and RAS disagreed with the 4e design-decisions when they were brought-in on the plan (at a GenCon, IIRC) - the two of them had to be talked-into being 'on board' with it.
This is pure speculation and a twisting of the facts.
Ed and Co. were advised approximately two years in advance of 4E, when the idea was first pitched to them.
From that point forward, all parties were in the loop. I recall the designers saying there were some very heated discussions, but that's been true for every major Realms change and D&D design decision.
The notion that Ed and RAS were 1) let in well after the fact on the 4E Realms and 2) were dragged kicking and screaming into the 4E Realms is pure propaganda.
I was at Gen Con when the 4E Realms were announced. Ed started the show, sitting at a table with Eric Boyd, by stating to all of us that "the Realms must change".
I really wish you wouldn't substitute your own speculation for fact Markus. Quote Ed/RAS directly (and provide a link, too). Don't presume to speak for them.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I wish I knew how they felt about 3e during that change, but the interweb wasn't what it is now, and thanks to TSR's 'end of days' we don't know much about what was going on, regardless. I think 3e took many of us by surprise (I know I was, and pleasantly so).
WotC shared there market research with the fans; they also gave us an inside view of what was left of TSR when WotC took it over (Ryan Dancey wrote that account, IIRC).
We know for a fact that Ed sat in with the designers of the 3E Realms at a meeting in Toronto. The one or two accounts we have of that meeting indicate it was cordial and not controversial.
TSR's "end of days" was a non-issue. It had zero effect on WotC's efforts to communicate with the fans about the changes coming to the Realms and Dungeons & Dragons via internet mailing lists (the Realms-L list, etc...), their website (see the Realms Roundtable discussions and the nigh-endless Eye on the Realms articles, Ed Says articles and so on, most of which are still there).
And then of course there was Dragon and Dungeon magazine, which were loaded with info and updates on the coming changes.
The notion that 3E took "many of us by surprise" is like saying people were astonshied to see the sun rise. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 28 Dec 2010 21:42:02 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 23:58:58
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BITE ME, Misc.
That's a fact - Ed said so himself, and it might be in his '4e thread' that's still around here somewhere. When he and Bob were first made aware of their plans - at a Gencon - they both had their reservations.
I don't have to prove anything to anybody's, and I DO NOT LIE. I know what I read, and it was straight from the horse's mouth.
Keep calling me a liar, Misc.
Obviously you are very sure of yourself in this regard - could it be that you 'know' all the relevant posts have been erased? You repeated something to me once I only said to one other person, which makes me wonder who YOU are. Could it be you were at that Gencon meeting as well?
Can I ask when is the last time you contributed ANYTGHING to this site? All you do is jump all over anyone who isn't licking WotC's boots. You're a troll, and you just come here to start arguments, now that you and your kind chased away all the creative people over on the WotC boards.
That place is Ghostown now, and you won't be happy until this place is too. You want me to 'go away'? Fine.
I will. Lets see how much everyone enjoys your lore... oh... wait.... 
Is that a tumbleweed I just saw blowing by? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Dec 2010 00:04:23 |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 00:06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When he and Bob were first made aware of their plans - at a Gencon - they both had their reservations.
"Both had their reservations" is a far cry from (and I quote),
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Both he and RAS disagreed with the 4e design-decisions when they were brought-in on the plan (at a GenCon, IIRC) - the two of them had to be talked-into being 'on board' with it.
Emphasis mine.
The former makes sense. The later...it's just filler. Where's the proof?
Question: what did your initial comments have to do with this scroll to begin with? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 01:06:02
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Folks, do we really need to go through all of this again? Seriously. If any of you have issues with some of the points raised by fellow scribes in this scroll, please take it to PMs. Otherwise, let's move on.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Dec 2010 01:08:44 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 01:09:59
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Ahem...quote:
Wise words from Ed, via THO, via Alaundo
This is indeed the Big Risk in all of this, the “roll of the dice” that I wish someone had never decided to make...
Not even what I was looking for, but that right there is an after-the-fact 'reservation'.
I will continue to search for the discussion where Ed and Bob are both mentioned - it may have even been in one of the Preview books (and try 'erasing' those, WotC!) LOL
I had more here, but this isn't the appropriate thread. Suffice it to say I have found a plethora of anti-WotC threads, all over the place, on sites I never expected them (like Enworld - they are now back on my 'watch' list). I have to thank you for that - you have given me days upon days of purely enjoyable reading.
WotC should do a reality show - this is getting like a soap-opera.
And BTW, if you only new how many posts I have deleted BEFORE hitting 'send', and how much I have been holding myself back from how I REALLY feel. I have been self-editing for over two months now, and I grow weary of it. My current project is designed to generate a lot of buzz for a 4e product, because I WANT it to succeed. I do not have issue with WotC or Hasbro, I have issue with decisions that were made.
I don't understand why you have taken it upon yourself to police this site.
EDIT: Sorry Sage - Your post wasn't there when I went to post this.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Dec 2010 01:11:02 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 04:50:43
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Um...in all seriousness Who the Frack cares about what RAS or Ed say about the setting as it is currently? OR which edition either of them two currently play or enjoy the most?
While I admire their imput on various subjects involving the Realms, I don't elevate them on some pedestal to which they sit and make "Decrees" and shout "From Hhere on, Hence Forth!"
It makes little difference if both Ed and RAS were pulled kicking and screaming into the current Realms (which I for one don't really think happened exactly), the fact remains that both still contribute to the current edition of the Realms that's being supported. Enought said, what's done is done.
And furthermore, the constant bickering and arguing about "who killed who" (monty python reference there  ) does little to strike up lively debate or further communication on hot-button issues such as FR4E.
And going along with the current topic, I'm not suprised if Ed OR RAS weren't thrilled with what the designers had in store for 4E (no matter when they were told), many Realms 'purists' weren't happy but at least Ed and RAS have contributed to it and not haggled the darn topic to death. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 08:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
This is pure speculation and a twisting of the facts.
Sources plz? |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 10:22:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Sources plz?
Why must I provide a source for something that was never said in the first place, Shemeska? If you think I'm wrong, then you provide the sources, plz.
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Question: what did your initial comments have to do with this scroll to begin with?
Still wondering about this, since Markus doesn't seem to have the balls to answer the question. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 29 Dec 2010 10:26:01 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 10:41:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Sources plz?
Why must I provide a source for something that was never said in the first place, Shemeska?
I don't know what you thought I was asking to get that above, but I was asking for a source and clarification on this claim of yours: "Ed and Co. were advised approximately two years in advance of 4E, when the idea was first pitched to them.
From that point forward, all parties were in the loop. I recall the designers saying there were some very heated discussions, but that's been true for every major Realms change and D&D design decision." |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 13:16:22
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| Someone at Candlekeep posted that RAS wasn't happy when the changes were announced, it seems he got over it. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 14:19:23
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Okay, you know what? This discussion is going nowhere. Let's just drop it.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 17:01:00
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quote:
RAS
"One," Salvatore said. "I'm serious. If I'm DMing, we're playing first edition. Because that's the game that I grew up with. That's a game where you really have to improvise and think on your feet. You have to make up your rules as you go along." He thought that 2nd Edition was well done, but that the 3rd, released in 2000, defined too much. Salvatore didn't like that you had to look up every detail or obscure rule in 3.5 because he thought that killed the role-playing aspect of the game.
"Now I'm playing 4th, my son is running a game," he said, which made him realize something important about playing that game. "4th Edition only works if you have creative players. First Edition can work with a creative dungeon master. 4th Edition will turn into a card game like Magic the Gathering where you just say, 'I'm using my daily power' and click, you turn over your card. If you play the game like that, it fails.
"But when you have creative players, who instead of saying what daily power they are using, but can actually describe what they're doing in the combat, then the game really sings," Salvatore said.
So, as I read this, RAS is basically saying:
he prefers D&D gamestyles which emphasize creative and descriptive role-playing; he likes having the game defined through the actions of the DM and players instead of the books
he prefers 1E because it's the D&D game he grew up with, he also thinks 2E was well done
he feels 3.0E and 3.5E are overdefined and burdened by too many rules
he feels 4E is descriptively limited, much like a "card game"
he points out that any edition of D&D, including the 4E he doesn't personally like, can work with creative DM/players.
I don't personally agree with all of RAS's assessments, but at least he states the reasoning behind his opinions. I've played all D&D editions; I've seen "good" DM/player groups have a fantastic time with all of them, I've seen "bad" groups fail regardless of which edition they play. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 09:59:45
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Even after I deleted the 'offensive' posts, and stopped posting in this thread, Misc continues to harass me both here and in PM.
Not only have I been referred to as a "cowardly asshole" in PM, but now he can't seem to keep his hands off my balls. If you don't want to hear anymore negativity, then why do you keep asking me for explanations in a thread I have obviously decided to retire from? That's called 'baiting'. I do not care to continue this, because it doesn't matter who is right or wrong at this point, and it is only having a negative impact on this community. I would be delighted to go on for several pages about how I REALLY FEEL, but the days of 4e-rants are over. I apologize for any uncalled for comments I have made... but I stand by their truthfulness. I guess I should follow the old adage, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".
I'm done. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 10:15:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I guess I should follow the old adage, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".
I'm done.
I agree with Markus, unfortunately this results in my solution. One stops posting. Once things are not the least bit of fun any more there is little use in continuing; for me Candlekeep has entered that category. But as this is the third time since this spring I have decided to leave I will be smart enough to not give my honest opinion about a hell of a lot of things and people here.
I'm done. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
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Cool beans.
Topic Locked
