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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 10:38:24
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Kyton, Chain Devil. Anybody got any in-depth information on this enigmatic monster? They're not devils but dwell in Hell, I'm still checking on some old PS and newer PF tomes, and I'm aware of the Hellchain Weaver from Dragon #343, but that's about it, a few brief references here and there. Surely there is some erudite sage of planar lore who has done some research, such as..where are they from? Are they precursors to baatezu the way obyrith are to tanari? Who are their mysterious leaders and what are their goals? Why do they have no representation among the greater powers of Hell? (The Princes, Black Nine, Dark Eight...) What is/was their role in the Blood War? I'm curious about any/all of it.
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Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 29 Nov 2010 18:03:43
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8029 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 11:11:06
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I've read about Kyton and Chain Devils recently, somewhere. I'll look it up.
There's always these pages. Kyton was roughed out in the SRD, I think. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 14:21:50
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Well, according to the Fiendish Codex II (p.10), the Kyton is part of the promotion path of devils (rank 7). So a least devil (like a lemure or a imp) can hope to be promoted to Kyton. However, they are not 'tagged' as Baatezus in the MM, like some others in the path. I don't know what that means, or what it takes to be a 'true' devil.
My first guess was that Baatezus must be completely made up from evil and lawful energy, while other devils were made from others sources, then changed into devils. But then, I thought of Erinyes, who are fallen angels (as least their origins), and still considered Baatezus.
I'll look into it. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 14:35:45
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So far, all I've read is that Kytons are usually torturers, and there is the City of Jangling Hiter, also called the City of Chains, in Minauros that is ruled by Kytons. There is a triple-towered cathedral in the heart of the city where a particularly clever Kyton named Climath resides. He is considered above the other chain devils.
Found that info in the Manual of the Planes 3.0 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 15:14:04
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| Do Red Wizard Conjurers summon them? I haven't seen Nevron summon one. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8029 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 15:28:56
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I don't quite understand your distinction.
Devils were introduced in the 1E Fiend Folio monster book; the name was amended to Baatezu in 2E, and Baatezu were firmly established as a type of fiend in subsequent 2E Planescape lore.
I've recently read Faces of Evil: The Fiends and Hellbound: The Blood War, in particular all the sections relating to Baatezu (they relate to my own project). No distinction is made in those books - Baatezu are always referred as such. In fact, the planar cant calls out the fact that "Devil" nomenclature is used only by the most stubbornly parochial fools, vastly greater in ignorance than even the normal varieties of clueless primes. The Baatezu themselves tend to hate being called Devils and usually get very angry about it (and so of course the Tanar'ri perpetuate the terminology).
My books do state that the plane of Baator was already inhabited "by a race of powerful, unknown creatures" before the first Baatezu arrived. The larvae of these natives were somehow formed from the very essence of Baator (instead of the "normal" method of larvae being formed from the souls of lawful evil mortals). Whoever/whatever they were, the Baatezu exterminated or absorbed them entirely. Sometimes larvae will naturally spawn nupperibos (apparently the "young" of this lost Baatorian race); the Baatezu see to it that larvae aren't left unsupervised and tend to herd nupperibos for demotion back down to lemures (so that they will die or "properly" evolve into Baatezu spinagons instead of repopulating the lost Baatorian race). Some of the most ancient and powerful Baatezu may have originally been members of this lost race reforged into the Baatezu form. The distinction is meaningless; nupperibo and lemures are treated as least Baatezu and that's the end of it. In any event, it is noted that this race are also definitely not "Devils".
Baatezu are described quite fully in these tomes and many of your questions are answered. Without these books you can draw from the monster entries well enough. The normal course of things is that lawful evil souls and spirits are formed into larvae which can die on Baator (and be forever lost), die elsewhere (and be reformed again as larvae on Baator), or be promoted to greater rank. Each promotion basically involves a long time (sometimes years or centuries) of torment in some kind of pit of pure evil nastiness, and those who survive emerge with their bodies, minds, and essences fully reshaped into their new Baatezu form. Baatezu society is rigidly structured, there are no ways to "cheat" the system and no ways for incompetent Baatezu to be promoted. Ever.
Erinyes are just one of the 13 Baatezu stations and (like all the others) they serve very specific purposes within the Baatezu hierarchy. Erinyes are formed from promoted Abishai, Kocrachons, or sometimes any of the lesser stations; they can employ disguises of beauty but are certainly not descended from outside the Baatezu ranks.
Kytons are described in Planes of Law as a two page monster entry. They are carefully not called Chain Devils in the writing. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 15:53:34
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Erinyes were specifically described as fallen angels, and a Lemure (or any other devil) cannot be promoted into such a form. Erinyes can, however, be promoted into higher ranks if they prove worthy.
I'm pretty sure I've read a distinction between simple devils and Baatezus, something about being of true blood or something. Maybe it was in a novel, can't remember. The MM3.5 does apply the Baatezus subtype to the basic devils (from the lowly lemure to the powerful Pit fiend), while refraining to do so on some like the hellcat or the imp.
As if, and I'm not sure about this one, there were some devils which were actually 'created' by Baatezus, and some of them eventually joined the promotion hierarchy. As I understand it, most mortals would not understand (as it is not common knowledge) the difference between the two. I'd have to reread the Fiendish Codex II, but I don't have the time at the moment. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8029 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 16:10:06
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My readings are basically all 2E, very embellished and detailed on the subject of Baatezu. 3E or later texts might contradict it; third-party stuff (any edition) might apply the name "Devils" more recklessly than TSR/Wizards did. Novels do what novels want to do, canon be damned.
Planescape is more "wheel-centric" than modern D&D. In this lore, each of the outer planes - Seven Heavens and Nine Hells included - is weighted equally within the cosmos. Modern D&D cosmologies have explained things with more of a Good-came-first monotheism-compatible bias wherein fiends are fallen from celestial origins.
I'd say just use whichever version is more appealing. Or whichever most easily fits the lore you have accessible. There's no reason not to call them Devils if that doesn't bother you (and your players), although you will find that (2E onward) canon sources tend to be careful about avoiding the term. |
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Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Nov 2010 16:11:42 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 17:49:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Planescape is more "wheel-centric" than modern D&D. In this lore, each of the outer planes - Seven Heavens and Nine Hells included - is weighted equally within the cosmos. Modern D&D cosmologies have explained things with more of a Good-came-first monotheism-compatible bias wherein fiends are fallen from celestial origins.
I'd say just use whichever version is more appealing. Or whichever most easily fits the lore you have accessible. There's no reason not to call them Devils if that doesn't bother you (and your players), although you will find that (2E onward) canon sources tend to be careful about avoiding the term.
The lore varies on this, and FC:II retcons some of the Planescape material (which was unfortunate). However it's often said that it claims that devils are fallen angels, except the source is a legend rife with anachronisms (for instance, Greyhawk gods appearing in the details of an event that preceeded many or all of their origins) and suggestions that the legend has been heavily revised over time, often to make local gods look better, to say nothing of the baatezu themselves employing their own brand of revisionist history. Given other sources and a valid reading of FC:II, the original creatures who "fell" to become the baatezu were originally LN. Hell was already there waiting and populated when they arrived, much to the likely chagrin of the baernaloths who had already seeded hell with the Ancient Baatorians (whose cities remain locked in the ice of Cania).
I've always been fond of the idea that the erinyes "fell" at a later date, themselves being related to the now extinct race from Acheron known as the aphancts.
I'm not a giant fan of an attempt to insert monotheistic tropes of a Dante'esque 'fall' into D&D which never really had it, despite cannibalizing lots of its demons and devils from such sources.
Having said that, I'm not sure that "modern" cosmologies have any proponderance of there being a classical "fall" for devils, or evil in general, or a Good came first or monotheistic creater, etc.
And back to the original topic, my reading is that kytons are not originally native to Hell/Baator, but may either be Acheron transplants, or the creations of a deity long since dead and drifting on the Astral. Common origins of kytons and bladelings perhaps? Descended from the hassitor even (another extinct Acheron race)? |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 17:52:12
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| Baatezu, Devil, to me the terms are interchangeable. Although called chain devils my reading suggests that the Kyton are not, and never have been true devils. They do not possess any devilish traits or abilities. So while they may not be Baatezu, I have no idea what they are. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 18:08:11
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So 'Devil' might be a term for any denizen of Hell, while 'Baatezu' refers to a specific race that rules there?
And Kytons are a type of Cambion, I would imagine (which is what Kilvan was driving at, I think).
And Erinyes were removed completely in 4e, IIRC, and Succubi were shifted into their spot (which is as it always should have been, IMHO).
I like that Erinyes are fallen angels... I can use that (especially now that there is no clear distinction between them and succubi, aside from 'affiliations'). Angels, Valkyries, Air Maidens, Devas, Assuras, etc... all viable candidates for 'the fall'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Nov 2010 18:19:19 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 18:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Given other sources and a valid reading of FC:II, the original creatures who "fell" to become the baatezu were originally LN. Hell was already there waiting and populated when they arrived, much to the likely chagrin of the baernaloths who had already seeded hell with the Ancient Baatorians (whose cities remain locked in the ice of Cania).
From what I understand of the Primeval Pact is that Law was born as the natural opposite of Chaos, and the Greyhawk gods (and their servants, Asmodeus included) were Law incarnate. That was before such concept as Good and Evil were given names, or even noticed. Asmodeus would be the first LE being, at least evil enough that it became clear that Law and Chaos are not the only natural forces in play.
What bugs me is the omission of the CG aspect at that time. Was Corellon even created at that time? It seems like only the lawful part of the creation of the universe, and is probably far from complete. That is still the most complete version of Hell's creation and is the one I use in my campaigns (and lets admit it, Asmodeus is the most badass dude out there  ). |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 18:30:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So 'Devil' might be a term for any denizen of Hell, while 'Baatezu' refers to a specific race that rules there?
And Kytons are a type of Cambion, I would imagine (which is what Kilvan was driving at, I think).
And Erinyes were removed completely in 4e, IIRC, and Succubi were shifted into their spot (which is as it always should have been, IMHO).
I like that Erinyes are fallen angels... I can use that (especially now that there is no clear distinction between them and succubi, aside from 'affiliations'). Angels, Valkyries, Air Maidens, Devas, Assuras, etc... all viable candidates for 'the fall'.
Yup, that's pretty much it, from what I understand at least. The only thing (or one of the things..) I can't understand is why some devils are part of the promotion chain (a very Lawful behaviour) while others are not (like the Hellcat, which probably shouldn't have been labeled as a devil in the first place. He's more like a Nessian Warhound, some kind of fiendish animal/outsider). It make the line between Baatezus and Devils even more blurry. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 18:32:30
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'Chaos' in all its forms was NOT part of 'God's plan' - quite the contrary. However, PURE Law stagnates, and leads to Entropy just as fast, if not faster, then PURE Chaos.
Chaos was needed and introduced into the mortal races as Free Will, so that they could achieve their destiny without stagnation. Without Chaos, the Primal Soup would have never given birth to 'Life'.
This is why Chaos follows upon law within the Universe. At first Chaos was expunged (the Elemental Maelstrom is but a small remnant of the proto-matter that existed before the universe formed), but then there was nought but empty space. Chaos was slowly 'injected' back into the Universe in order to form the Planes & worlds, Flora & Fauna - PURE Chaos is Evolution unrestrained.
All IMHO, of course. There is no way of telling what really happened, RW or D&D.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Nov 2010 18:37:28 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 19:17:31
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| Cambion? I thought cambion were half-demon, like Kaanyr Vhok and the tunnaruk, or Dlardrageth's and the fey-ri, are all technically cambion. Tiefling seems to be the new catch all term for those of demonic (not devilish/diabolic) decent. I'm reading that the term cambion is now used to describe the half-diabolic (devil) instead, but where are you getting that?? |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 29 Nov 2010 19:23:55 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 19:31:16
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Cambions are the offspring of succubi, which retro-actively are Devils, which means that a Cambion is the offspring a Devil and something else.
Tieflings are the result of Demons breeding with something else.
As it should be. The difference between the two was always hazy, and changed from edition to edition (mostly because Iuz should have been a Tiefling). Now that we know Graz'zt was originally a Devil, it all comes full-circle and makes sense - Iuz is indeed a Cambion, and Cambion are the spawn of devils.
Which is probably why Succubi were shifted into the Devil Column in 4e, to make all the disparate lore finally work-out. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Nov 2010 19:32:01 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 19:40:11
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| Setting aside the Cambion issue (seeing as I have contradictory lore, Hellgate Keep comes to mind) and getting back to the Kyton, they cannot be half devil as it is stated that they were in Hell first in many of my PS tomes. We could argue the various definitions forever, but none of them seem to apply in this case. From all that I have read the Kyton appear to be unique, and their origins are (deliberately?) vague at best. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 19:55:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
<snip> Now that we know Graz'zt was originally a Devil <snip>
Whoa! Where did you read THAT? That's quite a big news for me, and might affect my current campaign (ideas are already flowing at the possibilities...)
As for the Kytons, maybe they are some kind of golem given sentience, twisted Fiendish tools to help the Baatezus because they had their hands full. So many souls to torture and so little time...
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 20:29:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now that we know Graz'zt was originally a Devil
Well, in the 4e game's cosmology anyways, not in the 1e/2e/3e cosmology. 4e doesn't go for continuity with prior material - it's its own thing. 1e doesn't address Graz'zt's heritage, while 2e and 3e explicitly make him the offspring of Pale Night, one of the oldest of the Obyrith lords (and potentially the creater of the first tanar'ri, making her the literal mother of demons). The origin story for those two games is mutually exclusive, and unless I was in a 4e core world game, I wouldn't use the 4e lore. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 20:34:05
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But it works in my own HB cosmology, which is an amalgam of 1e/2e/3e/4e, with lots of homebrew thrown in, so I'm okay with it. I fully understand how many folks would not be.
Who created the devils? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Nov 2010 20:35:36 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 20:40:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
From what I understand of the Primeval Pact is that Law was born as the natural opposite of Chaos, and the Greyhawk gods (and their servants, Asmodeus included) were Law incarnate. That was before such concept as Good and Evil were given names, or even noticed. Asmodeus would be the first LE being, at least evil enough that it became clear that Law and Chaos are not the only natural forces in play.
What bugs me is the omission of the CG aspect at that time.
Keep in mind that the tale of the Pact Primeval is told from the perspective of beings of Law, and at the time it happened, they were largely ignorant of anything but themselves and their metaphysical opposites. Tell the tale of that time period from the perspective of the Baernaloths for instance and it'll largely ignore anything except Evil, same thing with exemplars of Good telling the tale. Very source biased at a time when the later structure of the planes had yet to be nailed down.
Yet even if we ignore all of the PS sources that detail events at that time scale (or the 3e FC:I which does also to some extent), the details in FC:II on the Pact Primeval still admit that Baator was already there, and already inhabited by previous LE beings when Asmodeus fell (from L-whatever to LE). The Pact is told from the perspective of beings of Law at war with the Obyriths of the Abyss, but the Obyriths themselves were children compared to their own creators, and they and their more proximate offspring tell a history of the planes from a very different perspective elsewhere in other sources.
Put them all together though and its given that the earliest outer planes were divided as pure representatives as the non-mixed alignments (NG, NE, LN, CN, N), with the other planes emerging as they mixed (and warred) or in some cases as the side effects of other events (Carceri emerging from the exile of the baernaloth Apomps and his creations the gehreleths/demodands). Deities arrive on the scene -much- later. The earliest denizens of the planes were around prior to the advent of mortals, and prior to the advent of gods, and this is attested to in a number of sources. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 21:01:31
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So do you think most 'gods' are really just ascended mortals, that learned how to tap-into the power of faith and elevate themselves?
Also, in case you missed it above, I will repeat my other question: Who created the Devils? Was it those Baatorians?
I'm a Great Wheel aficionado, but most of what I know comes indirectly from core/Greyhawk and later FR - I wasn't all that 'into' Planescape (not that it was bad - I thought it was all great - if just wasn't my 'cup of tea'). So my Planer knowledge is rather lacking, sadly. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 21:57:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who created the devils?
My guess would be the obvious answer: Asmodeus
Edit: IIRC, we have no clue about the alignment of the original Baatorians. All we know is that it was pretty much a wasteland (not even splitted in 9 levels yet) |
Edited by - Kilvan on 29 Nov 2010 22:00:12 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 22:20:11
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Your comment about the 'nine levels' got me thinking...
If 'The Heavens' reside above us, and are numbered 'Seven', and 'The Hells' are below us, and number 'Nine', then shouldn't the Prime Material revolve around the number 'Eight'?
Which makes me wonder, if the planes are that simplistic and laid-out in order like that, whats on planes 1-6 (and 10 and 11 as well). 
Simply more 'food for thought' - ones of those abstract ideas I like to just 'throw out there'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Nov 2010 22:20:48 |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 22:31:16
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| Thanks Shemmy, I knew there had to be a berk in here that might tumble me to the dark of it, but I guess not. I was just reading, that the folks over at PF have said they will address them, but not,unfortunately, in the latest Bestiary (which is slated to drop in Dec, so excited!!) So it looks as if "wait and see" is my answer. Oh, how I hate that one. Thanks too, to everybody else, I, personally, can't stand this 4e (polar opposite of)lore, but that is a topic for another thread |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 29 Nov 2010 22:36:39 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 23:05:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Who created the devils?
My guess would be the obvious answer: Asmodeus
Edit: IIRC, we have no clue about the alignment of the original Baatorians.
That would be my assumption as well, with some of them having arrived with him from the nameless proto-plane of Law, others being created by himself later, others created by the Dark 8 or Lords of the 9, and some potentially arriving from other planes and incorporated as a race into the Baatezu ranks (erinyes potentially here).
For the second bit, I assume LE. It stands to reason with their native plane and origin. But for a more concrete example, as I recall, the immature ancient Baatorian imprisoned in Jangling Hiter in the 2e 'Tales of the Infinite Staircase' was LE. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2010 : 23:10:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So do you think most 'gods' are really just ascended mortals, that learned how to tap-into the power of faith and elevate themselves?
Some of them are clearly ascended mortals, the others the product of divine creation between two other gods, and the original ones presumably appeared de novo out of the raw belief of mortals once some unknown but critical threshold was reached. But the oldest gods were in any event the creations of their worshippers, not the other way around (though in subsequent eons gods may have created races after themselves, and likely did). |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8029 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 10:19:40
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quote:
Shemmy
And back to the original topic, my reading is that kytons are not originally native to Hell/Baator, but may either be Acheron transplants, or the creations of a deity long since dead and drifting on the Astral. Common origins of kytons and bladelings perhaps? Descended from the hassitor even (another extinct Acheron race)?
Your knowledge of the planes is always phenomenal, Shemmy.
Planes of Law briefly mentions that Kytons and Bladelings were involved in some kind of forgotten ancient conflict. The text doesn't state where but it seems (to me) that it describes events on Acheron which led to the Bladelings relocating to the layer Ocanthus. Incidentally: 1) Where are aphancts described? 2) Were the hassitor actually a race of fiends, merely well-organized planars involved in the conflicts of Acheron, or simply a mystery known only through their hassitoria?
I'd think alignment of the native Baatorians would've been shaped by the essence of the plane itself: unconditional LE. Faces of Evil presents several theories about the Baatezu (as a species), one being that Baatezu are highly adaptable and were very much shaped/evolved into what they are by the harsh conditions of Baator itself. Some pages are devoted toward explaining "experimental" variant Baatezu forms being created, mostly with problematic tradeoffs and little success. I'm not sure any of this would be consistent with 4E cosmology. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Nov 2010 10:38:23 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 14:19:16
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I think aphanacts were in Dragon 341, never used them cause I already had a similar homebrew race, the helions.
Not sure, the bladelings were once from the Prime. And possibly the Lady of Pain has something to do with them.
As for gods, I don't think they existed before mortals, but Planescape leaves that vague, leaves you to choose. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 18:26:22
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Shemmy, you are indeed "The Man" regarding planar lore. I've no idea how I missed that post, but I did. Bladelings, perfect, I've always wondered about them too. I'm creating a Kara-Tur/OA campaign inspired by some MtG cards from the Kamigawa set, namely Ink-Eyes, Servant of Oni who is a devil-possessed wererat lord ninja/necromancer, and the rest of the clan (Skullsnatcher, Throatslitter, Marrow-Gnawer), all chain specialists. This is great, perhaps a Bladeling planar ally with levels of Kensai? Awesome! Most of this lore was from Planes of Law?
Tiger-Man and Mind-Snake vs. Rat Clan |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 30 Nov 2010 20:08:48 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 19:07:21
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I'm starting to think those primordial Shadevari (F&A, pg.141) were actually Obyriths.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
As for gods, I don't think they existed before mortals, but Planescape leaves that vague, leaves you to choose.
We tend to have a lot of 'spill-over' here of late (and I fear I may be the primary culprit in perpetuating that).
As part of my ever-evolving Cosmological model, I'm starting to see Overminds (discussed in another thread) - those absract 'racial awareness' thingies (yes, I have run out of terms!  ) - as the pool from which proto-gods are drawn.
In that way, the 'Divine Essence' is part of the racial Overmind, and early in a culture's climb toward civilization, bits of this Divine Essence attach themselves to concepts being venerated by the culture (thus forming the proto-pantheon for that group). Later in the culture/race's advancement, 'hero-types' (Saints, exalted leaders, etc) are venerated, and thus get some of this cultural divine essence attached to them as well (creating demi-powers, or in 4e lingo, Exarchs).
That would be the natural evolution of 'godly beings'. Other beings (like Archfiends) can tap-into this process by creating 'cults' for themselves; if the cult grows in popularity and becomes a major factor to the culture, the being ascends just as anyone receiving worship would. There are all sorts of 'short cuts' here, like sacrifice, but nearly all of them have a downside which tends to prove more costly in the long run (like sacrifice, for instance - it gives you a small, immediate boost, but cost you the energy that worshiper would have generated from then on).
That is how I think most racial deities would have come about - apotheosis and spontaneous genesis. At least, the 'over-group' of them (there is always a 'top-tier' in EVERY pantheon) would have evolved this way.
The other way to get some of this 'divine essence' is to have another divine being give part of its essence - this is how we have Chosen, Divine Offspring (ie., Hercules), and even Avatars. Each of those (and I'm sure there are plenty more) are examples of a situation wherein a 'god' has shared part of its essence and created a new being. There are drawbacks to this method as well - the original being (or beings, in the case of a 'godly coupling') sacrifice a bit of their energy (at least one DvR), which takes awhile to 'heal' (like mortal attribute damage, but think centuries instead of days). Also, the energy released will still have 'harmonic attachment' to the original being - it will still have 'resonance' with them. Over time, this 'resonance' will be lost, as the new being matures and becomes its own person (which is why gods tend to make sure they re-absorb their Avatars after each use - an Avatar CAN achieve self-will after a time).
This resonance also has its downside - while giving the original divine being a 'leash' on which to keep some control over the newly elevated being, it also gives others a means to 'get at' the original being (the conduit thus-created is two-way). This is why I think Shar required a piece of the Karse-Stone to bring down Mystra's defenses. The concept of 'familiarity' (resonance) is nothing new in magic - everyone from RW psychics and Voodoo practitioners to D&D diviners and Necromancers use it. The longer something was part of something else (and the shorter the amount of time it has been 'detached'), the greater the 'resonance'.
What this all means is that gods who create other gods always stand a chance of being usurped through these 'conduits' they create when they part with divine energy to create the new being, either by outside forces, or the created individual itself, when it achieves enough of its own power/awareness to challenge its creator (mythology is rife with that). The safest bet for any god is to nurture other divine beings who have no attachments to them - ones created outside of their own pantheons, or ones that have ascended through apotheosis or spontaneous genesis. By forming emotional bonds, rather then actual energy-conduits, they sacrifice some direct control, but don't risk loosing themselves in the process.
Back On-Topic:
I learn so much more from CK threads then I ever did reading what little PS material I have. I dont know if this helps any, but there is a Chain Golem written-up somewhere (Edit: 3eMM2, pg.44) as well. Nothing canon, but I have a theory that golems are actual Elementals created on the prime; each is a manifestation of some property found in the Material World, but draws its inspiration from beings from other planes. While not as powerful as the original being they are designed to emulate, they have their benefit in that they can't be banished as real outsiders can, and the creator is able to (usually) control them better.
Ergo, the Chain Golem may be some prime Wizard's attempt to create an imitation Kyton. EDIT: I actually just read the writeup, and apparently they are already connected to the Kytons - Kytons make them to serve devils.
@Fellfire - a lot of MtG's fluff is awesome, and is better then a great deal of D&D fluff, which is just so strange, IMHO. MtG requires NO fluff, yet they go to great lengths to produce some pretty awesome stuff. D&D, on the other hand, NEEDS its fluff... and yet a lot of recent efforts fall short.
Go figure - SAME company, two completely different attitudes.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Nov 2010 19:50:18 |
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Kyton Lore
