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Master Dresdinn
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Oct 2003 : 03:48:52
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Ok here goes. I live in a rural town in north texas, and finding people willing to Play DnD is very hard to do. I've finnaly assembled a small team of adventurers consisting of 5 PCs and myself(the DM). One of the newest players thinks that his 1st level Elven fighter is invincible, and no matter what I do or say he refuses to let me redo his character sheet.
Just an example so you know what I'm talking about > He has a +5 to his strength check, an armor class of 23, and can move 30ft per turn with an action.
Every time I even ask to see his character sheet he get really defensive, and accuses me of wanting to cheat.I don't want to kick him out of the group, because then we would only be 4 PCs. If you have any advice for me please don't hesitate to speak.
Sincerly,
Master Dresdinn
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2003 : 05:08:47
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First of all...great name! 
Second of all, relax....things may not be as bleak as they seem.
I think that you probably have what I like to call a "Gater" on your hands...someone whose knowledge of how to roll a character up in real D&D stems from playing Balder's Gate. I think that this is how he gets a 20-21 strength roll, most likely by "tanking". In "tanking", you roll up stats then take away a whole bunch of points and add them to another...
For example, if I roll:
15 Dex
18 Str
11 Con
12 Wis
11 Int
17 Cha
And take three points away from Con (making it 8), I can add it to my Str score. Now this DOES NOT work in tabletop D&D!!!!!! However, I think that your PC probably does not know that he cannot do that...
Secondly, armor classes are hard to judge. Reason being, depending on DEX and other factors, you simply cannot tell what any one 1st level character's AC should be. However, 23 might be a bit high...let's see...
If the elf has a DEX of 20 (the highest number that ANY elven PC can have at first level), that means he adds 5 to his base score of 10. So now we're at 15. If he is wearing a Chain Shirt (the highest AC bonus one can take without penalties to DEX bonus), we get another +4 to make 19. If he then adds a Tower Shield to the mix, we're at 23. So it's not impossible (armor page - 123 Player's Handbook, AC bonuses due to DEX - pg. 8 Player's Handbook). What is impossible is the 20-21 Strength score. An elf can only have (at best) a score of 18 at first level.
Thirdly...your PC is partially right about his movement rate. If he takes a full Movement Action, he gets thirty feet. Now that is only such if he is wearing no armor or light armor...if that is the case (as it is above), the PC only gets 20 feet per round. Now this all changes of course if the character is running or tracking, but 30 feet is standard (pg. 147 of the Player's Handbook).
Fourth - AND MOST IMPORTANT. Never forget that YOU, not the PC is lord and master of the table. If you decide that up is down, black is white and that PC's have to pay you 10 dollars for every failed Spot Check, then THAT IS THE WAY IT IS. Otherwise, they're not playing your game - they're playing someone else's. If you decide to see a PC's character sheet, then that is what has to happen. There are tips in the Dungeon Master's Guide on dealing with unruly PCs, but for me, a simple one on one will do.
Simply tell the PC that the game is not about him. It is about everyone. Rule bending, breaking or even misunderstanding, will ruin the game for everyone, and as DM it is YOUR job to keep the game going in a good direction. If the PC cannot explain his massive AC, Movement rate and Strength score, then he has to change his sheet or leave the table. Trust me...the other PCs won't mind, if you talk to them first and let them know what problems your having.
Good luck, and good gaming! |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2003 : 05:13:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Dresdinn
Every time I even ask to see his character sheet he get really defensive, and accuses me of wanting to cheat.I don't want to kick him out of the group, because then we would only be 4 PCs. If you have any advice for me please don't hesitate to speak.
Would you rather have 4 PCs that are enjoying themselves along with their DM? Or would you rather have 5 and everyone be miserable save for problem child here?
If you are asking politely to look at his character sheet as DM, he's either a child or an idiot to accuse you of cheating. The next time you ask to see his sheet, and he fires off with the cheating comment look him right in the eyes and state:
"I have to see your sheet. How else am I going to know how soon to send the tarrasque after your character?" |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2003 : 06:05:26
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LOL
Good call, SiriusBlack! |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Trafaldi
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2003 : 07:16:25
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| Very good choice but i would change one thing dont warn him about tarrasque just have it appear and if you really want to get rid of the character you will just kill off that character and have him create a new character which you witness the creation of. |
Some believe there is something more after death, if you really want to find out... go kill yourself and stop pestering me. |
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Vallandar
Acolyte
United Kingdom
46 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2003 : 08:31:36
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| If a player refused to let me check his character record sheet between games then I would be very suspicious that he was cheating and had "rolled up" a character with all stats at 18. If your other players object to the unbalance of power in your games then have one of them glance at his character sheet [presumably they're all sitting together on the other side of the table] and report back to you later. Alternatively stop harrassing the player for a while and then have his character killed in a situation in which he could not accuse you of bias [i.e. the character charges a band of cross-bow armed orcs without checking for traps and happens to fall into a spiked pit] and then have him roll up a new character with you and the other players present. If your other palyers are irritated by the player as well, though, then just tell him to design a new character or leave the group. Alternatively you could just change from hack-and-slash to political or problem solving adventures for a while where his combat prowess will be menaingless. |
'The sinews of war, unlimited money'
- Cicero |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2003 : 13:44:33
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Actually I have a very good cure for this little deal. Set up an ordeal where the rest of the group is in one place and he is off doing his own thing. Hell make it a "personal" quest that he has been charged to do by some much stronger foe or being. Then he willbe struck with fear and be into doing this. Its better this way trust me. While doing so make sure that each person has to have their own thing going on at one time. Then enter said scene where something you know he cant beat comes along and finds him, or he finds it. It might seem cruel but if this is the way that a player in YOUR game, where YOU ARE GOD, is acting. Then teach him a lesson that he wont forget.
..... No one char is ever going to be a superhero. Not in this Realm anyway. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2003 : 07:42:32
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All I can really say is that as a DM, you have to see everyone's playing sheet. If no one shows it, the DM can't do his job. And, as I read someplace, the DM can't cheat. The most he/she can do is be unfair. After all, the DM is making the rules in the first place.
Personally, I'm not in favor of you killing off his character. Not deliberately, anyway. Though I've never participated in a table-top game, I think that if you loose the players' trust, you loose the fun. So if he's being a berk, tell him he has three choices. Take it, leave it, or submit the problem to the group as a whole. If he's being honest about it all, then he should pick the third option. The rest of the players will be able to go over it, check against the rules, and any problems will come to light.
Oh, and by the way -- a first-level character can also have Dodge. He might not have noticed that it's only against one selected opponent, not against every Tom, Dick, and dragon. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2003 : 00:37:58
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I cannot believe you have to make that tricks to a trouble maker that refuses to show even his char sheet.
DM is the master as it is mentioned in the name. When you ask anyone to show his sheet he will do it and when you ask him to creat his char in front of you he will obey in order to play. Game is not for a fool but all players.DM must be obeyed if he says in this game all chars are are considered as their actual int it is the rule.
Otherwise the player and Dm would be the same person and he would play with his toys.
Without Dm there is no game and without player the game cannot be played.Everyone must respect each other. |
Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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Yasraena
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2003 : 07:11:07
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If any player in my campaign refused to let me see their character sheet, he would not be allowed to play. An obvious sign of a cheater/munchkin.
You are the person who runs the game, and you need to see each character to ascertain their abilities and weaknesses to be able to balance the game appropriately.
I'd say to him 'show me your sheet and I'll edit it if I see fit, or don't play.'
Having 4 cooperative players is much better than having one uncooperative one. |
"Nindyn vel'uss malar verin z'klaen tlu kyone ulu naut doera nindel vel'bolen nind malar."
Yasraena T'Sarran
Harper of Silverymoon |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2003 : 09:32:24
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I cant imagine a player such as this will add anything to the game anyway. He's obviously not willing to make it enjoyable to the other players. At the end of the day, the DM rules the game. I always go through my players character sheets with a fine-tooth comb and copy relevant information onto 6x4 record cards (it also helps to apply a little dice-fudging if the going gets a bit tough  ). Certainly no magical items are permitted at such an early stage in the characters adventuring life, heirlooms are out of the question too 
Id say that if he is not willing to show you his character sheet then its HIM who is cheating! Its the DMs job to know the characters as well as the players themselves do. I say kick him out! Otherwise the first session will just involve him pushing through into every room swinging his Stormrager Vorpal Demonslayer +20! |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Jander Sunstar
Learned Scribe
Turkey
275 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2003 : 10:30:03
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| I make favors when my players roll low, I give them extra ability scores and allow them to distribute the total scores to make one that is good for them. That depends how hard my campaign is. If I remember right wood elves take +2 to their str and dex but -2 to con char and int so his scores can be done but a fovor of yours or great luck is needed. For a principle I make them roll in front of me otherwise I would give their scores without their rolling. |
Punish me if you will, for my hands are not clean. But deny me not my revenge!"
-Jander Sunstar |
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William of Waterdeep
Senior Scribe
USA
829 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2003 : 02:05:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Jander Sunstar
I cannot believe you have to make that tricks to a trouble maker that refuses to show even his char sheet.
DM is the master as it is mentioned in the name. When you ask anyone to show his sheet he will do it and when you ask him to creat his char in front of you he will obey in order to play. Game is not for a fool but all players.DM must be obeyed if he says in this game all chars are are considered as their actual int it is the rule.
Otherwise the player and Dm would be the same person and he would play with his toys.
Without Dm there is no game and without player the game cannot be played.Everyone must respect each other.
I like the way you think.Why baby him or her,I know there are going to be likes and dislikes but as in other game you have to follow the rules.Although I have never been a DM I would try be tackful about it first and If that didn't work then I would say you have a cheater and I can't stand cheaters.Send them down the road before they steal your silverware too. |
Courage isn't the lack of fear but rather believing in and doing what you know is right even though fear is present.
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Master Dresdinn
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2003 : 03:03:06
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| I thank you all for your advice in this matter. The problem solved it's self though. I asked to see his character sheet again, and he actually agreed. He wouldn't let me see it until after the game session was over. I didn't feel like pressing the issue, but one of my other players had had enough. They cut the rope bridge as he was crossing it. (lol) It suprised me, and he took it rather lightly. He through away that sheet, and agreed to let us help him to create another character. I never did get to see that PC sheet, probably because he was cheating. I'll have to let'em go if the problem presists with his next one. Thanks again for all your help. Yours Truly Master Dresdinn |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2003 : 06:06:20
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Player: "No! This cannot be! I am too munchkin to die!"
Glad that's over with.  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2003 : 13:59:20
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| LMFAO. Nice one. I think that sums up what I was going to say as well. Save, Can we sing a song now? Lolly pop kin maybe? Pwease? *hides from on comming chuckings of foods and such* |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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sabre_maccool
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2003 : 16:37:01
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{If you are asking politely to look at his character sheet as DM, he's either a child or an idiot to accuse you of cheating. The next time you ask to see his sheet, and he fires off with the cheating comment look him right in the eyes and state:
"I have to see your sheet. How else am I going to know how soon to send the tarrasque after your character?"}
how bout a tarrasquelich? my friend jermy came up with that one lol |
fromm my dear friend grizzly" i think i can take 'em" faceing an angry red dragon while drunk on elvish wine |
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Maecenus of Westgate
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2003 : 00:59:40
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These type of Players remind me of this one crazy guy that joined my D&D group at one point. The guy, though he was new to D&D, owned the three core rulebooks and supposedly had read them. Unfortunately, he had failed to grasp how to actually play the game and caused some major problems for me and my other players. Not only did he endlessly argue with me about things like why his character couldn't run all the way to Daggerdale from miles away in one round but also tried to dominate any combat scenario and would fuss when someone else managed to score a "hit". Anyway, this problem player's issues built up to the point where he actually got physically violent with myself and one other player following an argument. Needless to say, he was ejected from my abode without further ado.
I guess my whole point is you definitely need to know the type of person you are inviting to play games with you and your company otherwise it could end very badly. This is just an extreme example of something that happened to me a while back that caused me to be more careful when inviting new players into my campaign.
Oh, and just for note, the guy was actually mentally unstable. On his way home from my place, he attempted to run over two pedestrians in his vehicle and tried to beat up his dad when he got home. His parents ended up placing him into a mental hospital of some sort, so I had discovered after the incident. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2003 : 06:18:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Maecenus of Westgate
Oh, and just for note, the guy was actually mentally unstable. On his way home from my place, he attempted to run over two pedestrians in his vehicle and tried to beat up his dad when he got home. His parents ended up placing him into a mental hospital of some sort, so I had discovered after the incident.
Dear Cyric! Where did you place your ad looking for new players? The local mental hospital? |
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Maecenus of Westgate
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2003 : 09:47:42
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quote:
Dear Cyric! Where did you place your ad looking for new players? The local mental hospital?
Nah, he was just a friend of a friend...or something along those lines. I usually have better luck when I put up my player ads at the state hospital. |
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kahonen
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2003 : 12:25:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Master Dresdinn
Ok here goes. I live in a rural town in north texas, and finding people willing to Play DnD is very hard to do. I've finnaly assembled a small team of adventurers consisting of 5 PCs and myself(the DM). One of the newest players thinks that his 1st level Elven fighter is invincible, and no matter what I do or say he refuses to let me redo his character sheet.
Just an example so you know what I'm talking about > He has a +5 to his strength check, an armor class of 23, and can move 30ft per turn with an action.
Every time I even ask to see his character sheet he get really defensive, and accuses me of wanting to cheat.I don't want to kick him out of the group, because then we would only be 4 PCs. If you have any advice for me please don't hesitate to speak.
Sincerly,
Master Dresdinn
I realise your problem appears to have "fixed itself" but speaking personally, I couldn't DM without my own copies of everyone's character sheets. I do this as a matter of course. When the characters are first created, I copy the player's sheets and update them the same as the players do. If you do this yourself, you'll never be in a situation where you don't know the abilities of the players in the party.
I believe that there are two very basic rules to D&D:
Rule 1. Every player (including the DM) has a right to enjoy the game.
Rule 2. Every player has a right to expect that another player's enjoyment will not adversely affect their own.
I've found in the past that any problem in the game can be viwed as breaking one (or both) of these very basic rules. In this case, your "rogue player" was expecting to benefit from both rules but was not allowing the other players (and yourself) to benefit from Rule 2.
As some of the replies have said, you are the boss. If all else fails simply tell him he either changes his attitude or leaves the game. Look at it this way: you either react to the bad player yourself or your good players will. The end result could be that you only have the bad player left in your group.
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Master Dresdinn
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2003 : 02:05:16
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| My thanks again to all of you for your helpful advice in this matter. I think I can now take care of it if any more problems of this sort comes up. |
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RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2003 : 03:49:03
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Maaann i know youve got this problem all solved and stuff but if you hadnt theres a sure solution.
look him square in the eye....slowly say
"{insert buddys name here} please make a reflex save"
hell probably come back with something like
"but were not playing" or "what are you talking about"
dont listin to his idiotic ramblings just repeat
then after hes made the roll say
"sorry bud...ya failed"
then give him a swift kick in the nuts.
should fix the problem. Ask Belfar...
i am very wise...and violent |
"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2003 : 09:06:32
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HAHAHA  nice advice RogueAssassin! |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Master Dresdinn
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2003 : 04:43:25
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| That is the greatest Rogue. I'll do that to'em anyway just for makeing me put up with his insolence.I'm gonna be laughing about that all night. Thanks. |
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RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2003 : 01:09:03
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Man Belfar is the funnyest person ive ever met and me and him are always doing crap like that to each other. its fun if not painful...but hey what kind of inflicting pain isnt fun? aye? aye?
Rogue |
"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden |
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I need help dealing with a player.
