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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 21:33:04
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Eh. I use to see threads about people bragging about killing Larloch or Eliminster or various gods. Long ago, and on other messageboards. Most responses were ether
1: Your DM didn't do it right.
2: So?
3: OMG! THAT SO COOOL WHAT BUILD! Can I worship you now!?
Though my personal fave rant was by my friend D, who's lies.... all the time. From his claims that Wizards of the coast crowned him the world's greatest DM, that Wizards of the coast sell DnD books under a different label on east side of USA titled Wizards of the EAST coast, and they have a bunch of new rules for the hard core gamer, like you must roll this way or you die, then there was the rant about how Akira Toryama loved his short story so much about the Saiyans making robot bodyguards that are always ten times more powerful then the person they're guarding, and how one came back and forced Vegeta to always work out so he be more powerful, that he even sent D a notice declaring it as offical lore and that's how it is, just Akira doesn't have time to anime it at all. (I know bulk of you have no idea what the above means. To put it in Forgotten Realms term, a saiyan loves being strong and fighting all the time, that the likelyhood that they'd allow someone to just be that much more powerful all the time based on their strength with no chance of winning is like Szass Tam giving up magic and allowing first level fighters to boss him around. It's like Bane going ordering his clerics to leave Tormites and all LG and CG people alone. It's like Zhentarim allowing a pheasent nobody more sales and profits from selling sheep dung then they can. It just doesn't happen.
That being said, Tarrasque, especally from 3.5 is easy to beat. Even tenth level people can beat him if they're prepared. Trio of dragons? Maybe.
This is of course, assuming all people are keeping an eye out for this. Karsus did it without any knowing about it, not even the Goddess of Magic herself. |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 22:12:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Karsus is sure to come back. Why would WotC leave a residue of him in the form of stone if they deem otherwise?! We've already seen the pattern: the discovery of the ruins of Imaskar heralded the return of empire in the forms of Deep and High Imaskar; the surviving Netherese enclaves - Sakkors, that one in Neverwinter, and others - had been mentioned before, hints given before Shade returned to Toril. WotC usually leaves a part of something (however small or big that part is) evident when they see the need to use that something again in the near or distant future...
Besides, I got a 'tip' that Karsus's return is nigh. 
One of which was the return of Amaunator. 
I don't see how the return of Amaunator has anything at all to do with Karsus... And I also don't think that WotC is planning out all these Returns years in advance. I think that it's either
a) sheer coincidence that a bit of prior lore could be connected to a current event.
or
b) someone looking at existing lore and deciding to expand on one of the countless random bits of lore left in play by skilled designers such as Ed or Steven Schend.
I think any other interpretation is reading too much into it. Sakkors, for example, was mentioned several years before 3E was even mentioned. I doubt they were planning on Sakkors being raised 10 years later when it was first mentioned. Kemp wasn't even writing for WotC when Steven wrote Sea of Fallen Stars -- so it's pretty unlikely they asked Steven to write that into there so a guy they'd not even looked at yet could use it in his second trilogy.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Nov 2010 22:13:01 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 22:32:46
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| Skilled designers always plant seeds which might eventually bear fruit. Ed has a famous quote about creating three new questions for every one you answer (though I can't find it at the moment). I wonder where that other Netheril city floated off too ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 00:41:58
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Back to Karsus (sorta) -
What's the deal with Wulgreth? Who was he before he got airbombed and liched by a glob of heavy magic? Was he already an arcanist? Or "just some guy"? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 04:07:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Skilled designers always plant seeds which might eventually bear fruit. Ed has a famous quote about creating three new questions for every one you answer (though I can't find it at the moment). I wonder where that other Netheril city floated off too ...
True. But not everything is a seed... If it was, every single kingdom that ever existed in the Realms could potentially come back, because they all still have ruins! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Nov 2010 04:08:22 |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 11:55:27
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| Woopie, maybe they'll resurrect the Serpent (sarrukh overgod) next time...I certainly hear that quite often. |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2010 : 23:56:36
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They Did.
His name is Zehir.
'Nuff said.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 17:07:10
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| I played through the Storm of Zehir, he's an interloper |
z455t |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 14:38:27
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INterloper? Does that mean that he's the Serpent? Or some other god in the FR?
From what I know, the Serpent was divided into two gods....one in FR, the other one in Greyhawk setting.
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orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
Edited by - creyzi4zb12 on 23 Nov 2010 15:16:39 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 17:32:49
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Well, they also brought in Asmodeus as a god, who is known as 'The Serpent' (I believe the final real issue of Dragon Magazine covered this point). So while trying to eliminate 'unnecessary redundancy', FR got TWO MORE 'serpent gods'.
Because 47 just wasn't enough......
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
I played through the Storm of Zehir, he's an interloper
THEY LIE. 
This is why I have never played any FR VG games - they are full of false-lore (none of it is considered canonical). I don't need my head filled with that garbage - I have enough trouble keeping my own views separated from canon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 18:23:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see how the return of Amaunator has anything at all to do with Karsus... And I also don't think that WotC is planning out all these Returns years in advance. I think that it's either
Well they did start putting more info and prestige classes about Amaunator being reborn through Lathander, or however it is they relate them, in the later 3E FR products, which coincides with production of 4E, so it's easy to assume that it was likely part of the plan to bring back Amaunator in 4E. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 13:16:35
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| Let's just refer to him/it as "The World Serpent", that was it's original name...I dunno, but are there any more lore related to "The World Serpent"? |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 16:23:39
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| Only what is in Serpent Kingdoms, creyzi if you think about the Serpent that appeared to Vecna, they don't seem the same. Zehir is poison, the other is magic. |
z455t |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 18:49:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see how the return of Amaunator has anything at all to do with Karsus... And I also don't think that WotC is planning out all these Returns years in advance. I think that it's either
Well they did start putting more info and prestige classes about Amaunator being reborn through Lathander, or however it is they relate them, in the later 3E FR products, which coincides with production of 4E, so it's easy to assume that it was likely part of the plan to bring back Amaunator in 4E.
THIS
You will note that during the final four years of the 3e product line, we saw the products starting to shift (both in lore and mechanics - ToB: Book of Nine Swords was actually cited as such a product by official types) toward what we got in 4e. In fact, the entire 3-part adventure arc at the end of 3eFR was geared to get people into the "Shar is after Mystra" state-of-mind.
In hindsight, its pretty easy to go back through everything and see where they started their 4e agenda.
Not a rant, just an observation. It really doesn't matter anymore... 'spilled milk' and all that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 19:08:23
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| There's a difference between looking at where the 4E groundwork was laid, and assuming that every extant bit of lore was planted with the specific intent of following up on it years (if not a decade or more!) later. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Nov 2010 19:08:51 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 20:08:32
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I'm sure that each new piece of lore has some inkling of an idea behind it - I VERY rarely ever throw and idea 'out there' without having a little thought as to where it might lead.
The idea that they 'just make stuff up' is pretty scary, to be honest - I sure hope that isn't what happens. The Realms are very logical and consistent (for the most part) world, and nothing should ever be added without looking at both where that lore may have come from, and where it may go.
Now, I am also equally sure that 90% of what they think-of never makes it into the official sources (and in Ed's case 99%). The usual 'cut for space' applies, but so does just plain self-restraint (a designer and/or author can't put every little detail into there stories, even though they've probably thought it all through). They may have it in the back of their minds that they left a certain 'thread' hanging somewhere that they can go back and run with later, but in many cases most of those never get used (which is why we have a back-log of NDAs several miles long). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 20:45:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm sure that each new piece of lore has some inkling of an idea behind it - I VERY rarely ever throw and idea 'out there' without having a little thought as to where it might lead.
The idea that they 'just make stuff up' is pretty scary, to be honest - I sure hope that isn't what happens. The Realms are very logical and consistent (for the most part) world, and nothing should ever be added without looking at both where that lore may have come from, and where it may go.
Now, I am also equally sure that 90% of what they think-of never makes it into the official sources (and in Ed's case 99%). The usual 'cut for space' applies, but so does just plain self-restraint (a designer and/or author can't put every little detail into there stories, even though they've probably thought it all through). They may have it in the back of their minds that they left a certain 'thread' hanging somewhere that they can go back and run with later, but in many cases most of those never get used (which is why we have a back-log of NDAs several miles long).
What's wrong with them just making something up? Some bits of lore can exist without a grand plan in place, and it doesn't detract from the setting at all.
Why can't we mention a mysterious happenstance occurring to Bahb the NPC, without it having to tie into some grand plot? They used to do that all the time in 2E, with the Current Clack offerings.
Sakkors and Amaunator have both been brought up in this thread. Both of those things were first mentioned in 2E. My assertation is that just because Amaunator was mentioned previously, it doesn't mean they were then -- back in the 90s! -- planning on bringing him back for 4E.
Ditto for Sakkors -- its first mention was building on existing lore (the Fall of Netheril) and adding a bit of nifty detail to a newly-described area. I highly doubt that when Steven Schend wrote Sea of Fallen Stars, he knew that WotC (not TSR!) was going to hire another writer more than a decade later to lift that enclave back out of the water. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 23:58:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sakkors and Amaunator have both been brought up in this thread. Both of those things were first mentioned in 2E. My assertation is that just because Amaunator was mentioned previously, it doesn't mean they were then -- back in the 90s! -- planning on bringing him back for 4E.
Ditto for Sakkors -- its first mention was building on existing lore (the Fall of Netheril) and adding a bit of nifty detail to a newly-described area. I highly doubt that when Steven Schend wrote Sea of Fallen Stars, he knew that WotC (not TSR!) was going to hire another writer more than a decade later to lift that enclave back out of the water.
Indeed. These were largely lingering pieces of Realmslore back in 2e. As I see it, they've just simply been selected to be expanded upon now. It's really not all that different from when other pieces of background lore have been updated into 4e.
I think it's just because of the relative "Netheril-ness" of Sakkors, that some are immediately inclined to believe there was "some deep purpose" behind it's prominence in 4e.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 00:11:05
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| I find fleshy reshaping of loose unexplored lorestrings to be more "consistent" than inventing entirely new lore from scratch. The rules and settings must evolve, better to add depth to what exists than create new material which would undoubdtedly be even more objectionable to fans. Sakkors and Amaunator were a few of the old potholes that needed filling. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 01:33:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I find fleshy reshaping of loose unexplored lorestrings to be more "consistent" than inventing entirely new lore from scratch. The rules and settings must evolve, better to add depth to what exists than create new material which would undoubdtedly be even more objectionable to fans. Sakkors and Amaunator were a few of the old potholes that needed filling.
Agreed ---to some extent. A well-executed expansion of an old or lost lore is fun to read. Though I am not averse to occasionally seeing new materials. What really matters is how it is done and if it makes any sense. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 11:41:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertSakkors and Amaunator have both been brought up in this thread. Both of those things were first mentioned in 2E. My assertation is that just because Amaunator was mentioned previously, it doesn't mean they were then -- back in the 90s! -- planning on bringing him back for 4E.
Me I'm not saying they introduced Amaunator with the intent of bringing him back, just that they started planting the seeds for his return before it happened (late 3E FR products) - (which is a good way of doing things IMO)
If they had planned it all along, they would have talked to the guys making the Baldur's Gate CRPG game, cause your character gets to meet the restless divine spirit of Amaunator and put it to rest, so that would have probably been done in a bit of a different way. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Karsus' Power still alive
