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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Dec 2014 : 04:19:11
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Austin the Archmage
You know what I think would be cool? A novel series intentionally written to show a group of characters' progression from level one to higher levels. Each book could end in stat write up showing how the characters have advanced and the next book could incorporate the feats, skills, items and whatnot they gained in the previous story. Closest thing I can think of to something like that is The Dresden Files, where in each book the stakes are slightly higher than they were last time, and you can see clear increases in the main character's abilities.
That sounds video-gamish. Stat summaries at the end of each chapter, or major encounter. I'm not criticizing or dismissing--just pointing out the similarity in my mind.
I like reading the information, but I don't play tabletop games directly. Because of that, I do tend to approach them how I would a video game. If I did play, I think it'd take me some time to appreciate the nuances of roleplaying, and realize that there's more to the game than gaining levels and kicking ass. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2014 : 17:47:38
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I vote for stick to the rules. Otherwise I could ready any old fantsy novel. There are enough nuances written into the rules or lore to allow for numerous exceptions.
There was a recent Sundering Novel where a Woodsman is taking down Devils in the Hells with an ordinary bow and arrows. It degraded the story for me as he might have well been fighting orcs. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2014 : 21:25:27
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
I vote for stick to the rules. Otherwise I could ready any old fantsy novel. There are enough nuances written into the rules or lore to allow for numerous exceptions.
There was a recent Sundering Novel where a Woodsman is taking down Devils in the Hells with an ordinary bow and arrows. It degraded the story for me as he might have well been fighting orcs.
Now that is going a little too far. Writers need not strictly adhere to the rules but their stories should be mindful that they do not step to far outside basic realms rules. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2014 : 23:42:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
I vote for stick to the rules. Otherwise I could ready any old fantsy novel. There are enough nuances written into the rules or lore to allow for numerous exceptions.
There was a recent Sundering Novel where a Woodsman is taking down Devils in the Hells with an ordinary bow and arrows. It degraded the story for me as he might have well been fighting orcs.
Now that is going a little too far. Writers need not strictly adhere to the rules but their stories should be mindful that they do not step to far outside basic realms rules.
Maybe too far for you..I personally think Fiends especially in Hells should be treated with a level of respect. |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2014 : 00:04:56
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
I vote for stick to the rules. Otherwise I could ready any old fantsy novel. There are enough nuances written into the rules or lore to allow for numerous exceptions.
There was a recent Sundering Novel where a Woodsman is taking down Devils in the Hells with an ordinary bow and arrows. It degraded the story for me as he might have well been fighting orcs.
Now that is going a little too far. Writers need not strictly adhere to the rules but their stories should be mindful that they do not step to far outside basic realms rules.
Maybe too far for you..I personally think Fiends especially in Hells should be treated with a level of respect.
I'm pretty sure he was agreeing with you. When he said "too far", I think he meant that that example was taking artistic license too far. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2014 : 01:27:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Austin the Archmage
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
I vote for stick to the rules. Otherwise I could ready any old fantsy novel. There are enough nuances written into the rules or lore to allow for numerous exceptions.
There was a recent Sundering Novel where a Woodsman is taking down Devils in the Hells with an ordinary bow and arrows. It degraded the story for me as he might have well been fighting orcs.
Now that is going a little too far. Writers need not strictly adhere to the rules but their stories should be mindful that they do not step to far outside basic realms rules.
Maybe too far for you..I personally think Fiends especially in Hells should be treated with a level of respect.
I'm pretty sure he was agreeing with you. When he said "too far", I think he meant that that example was taking artistic license too far.
Oh you're right, my apologies Arcanus. |
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Arcanus
Senior Scribe
485 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2014 : 01:44:28
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| Yes I was agreeing lol. No problem my friend :-) |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2014 : 19:50:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Caolin
Do you enjoy a novel more when the author incorporates game rules into their writing? Or do you prefer a more rules agnostic novel?
Sometimes it bothers me and sometimes it doesn't.
When and where usually depended on how old I was at the time. Bruenor crafting Aegis Fang was awesome until I realized he probably shouldn't be able to do that.
Rich Baker followed the 3E rules pretty closely in his Last Mythal trilogy. For me it broke the immersion, though I appreciated him adhering to the rules because it's a topic that came up on the WotC Realms forums. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2014 : 20:44:34
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| Actually, Bruenor creating Aegis Fang was within the rules of that time- there was a bit of lore/rule that a dwarf COULD (once in his lifetime) create a single unique magical weapon or armor, and forever after would be unable to match that level of craft. Most dwarves spend their entire lives trying to create something of such great significance, and many never achieve it. He just happened to be granted that gift- by Moradin. He was divinely inspired, which WAS within the rule-set at the time. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2014 : 23:58:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, Bruenor creating Aegis Fang was within the rules of that time- there was a bit of lore/rule that a dwarf COULD (once in his lifetime) create a single unique magical weapon or armor, and forever after would be unable to match that level of craft. Most dwarves spend their entire lives trying to create something of such great significance, and many never achieve it. He just happened to be granted that gift- by Moradin. He was divinely inspired, which WAS within the rule-set at the time.
I know I saw that trope in the lore a couple of times, but I was unaware it was an actual rule... In fact, I had vague plans on writing up a ruleset for doing that.
In what source did this rule appear? |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2014 : 18:01:21
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
There was a recent Sundering Novel where a Woodsman is taking down Devils in the Hells with an ordinary bow and arrows. It degraded the story for me as he might have well been fighting orcs.
I personally find that actually referencing rules or mechanics within a story unduly breaks immersion. But at the same time something like a creature being immune to certain things or being especially harmed by silver or cold iron, if those are ignored either out of ignorance from the baseline material or otherwise, that likewise breaks immersion in just as awkward a fashion.
There's always ways to go around such things in ways that make for a good story but aren't within the game rules, and those things usually make for a good story when well written. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 29 Dec 2014 18:03:37 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2014 : 19:05:40
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I think "novels vs rulebooks" is misleading - specifically, presents several different issues as one at best, and possibly implies an answer at worst.
Now, "lore vs. mechanics" is valid: it's the question of what are the ends and what are means.
Either mechanics is intended to represent the setting, or any lore is intended to be "fluff" providing stuffing under covers with chainmail bikinis to be marked with logotype "Dungeons And Dragons Miniature Game (TM)". It cannot be both at once.
The difference is that rulebooks are also lore.
So it's one thing is a character doesn't need to (for example) wait until level 3 to figure out which end of a spear should be pointed toward enemy (or for 3e, that you can chop things apart with an axe), and it's another if everything is randomly renamed or (also for example) wall of force somehow turns out to be smell-permeable. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2014 : 06:01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, Bruenor creating Aegis Fang was within the rules of that time- there was a bit of lore/rule that a dwarf COULD (once in his lifetime) create a single unique magical weapon or armor, and forever after would be unable to match that level of craft. Most dwarves spend their entire lives trying to create something of such great significance, and many never achieve it. He just happened to be granted that gift- by Moradin. He was divinely inspired, which WAS within the rule-set at the time.
I know I saw that trope in the lore a couple of times, but I was unaware it was an actual rule... In fact, I had vague plans on writing up a ruleset for doing that.
In what source did this rule appear?
I think it was more like a bit in one of the write-ups on dwarves. I honestly forget where I saw it myself, I just remember it because of Aegis Fang being Bruenor's "final Masterpiece" in that vein. He never picked up a hammer at the forge again. Supposedly, it's something that nearly every dwarven smith seeks, and when Moradin smiles on one, that's his last work. Maybe not a "rule" per se, perhaps, but it's been canon since at least 2nd ed. My best guess for "source" would be the Book of Dwarves supplement, Demihuman Deities, or Monster Mythology. I do remember thinking when I read the chapter where Bruenor created it that I thought it was cool that Salvatore had remembered that bit and used it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2014 : 06:25:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I think it was more like a bit in one of the write-ups on dwarves. I honestly forget where I saw it myself, I just remember it because of Aegis Fang being Bruenor's "final Masterpiece" in that vein.
I'll wager that lore was written after "The Crystal Shard" was released.  |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2014 : 07:31:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I think it was more like a bit in one of the write-ups on dwarves. I honestly forget where I saw it myself, I just remember it because of Aegis Fang being Bruenor's "final Masterpiece" in that vein. He never picked up a hammer at the forge again. Supposedly, it's something that nearly every dwarven smith seeks, and when Moradin smiles on one, that's his last work. Maybe not a "rule" per se, perhaps, but it's been canon since at least 2nd ed. My best guess for "source" would be the Book of Dwarves supplement, Demihuman Deities, or Monster Mythology. I do remember thinking when I read the chapter where Bruenor created it that I thought it was cool that Salvatore had remembered that bit and used it.
I don't know whether it was a game rule or what, but Bruenor definitely returned to the forge again after having crafted Aegis-fang.
Although Drizzt was not described as having any armor in the first several Icewind Dale books, in "Legacy of the Drow" he suddenly sports a mithral chain shirt, which was alternatively said to have been forged either by Bruenor or another dwarf named Buster Bracer. And later on, Regis had his spiked ball morningstar mace replaced by a unicorn head mace, which was forged by Bruenor, as well (The Silent Blade).
While Aegis-fang is very believable as Bruenor's personal masterpiece, I don't see anything wrong with a weaponsmith returning to the forge to make other, inferior weapons afterward. Yes, they would be a bit anticlimactic. But the process of forging and shaping a weapon is cathartic and therapeutic to the craftsman, separate and apart from the quality of the end product.
I can easily imagine an aging Bruenor still taking out his frustrations by hammering some poor length of metal and bending it to his sheer iron will! Or the gleam of his pearly whites peeking out from his red beard as he first lights his forge! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1575 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2014 : 13:21:00
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Let's be fair, a wizard playing by the game rules would cheerfully murder his way through every non-wizard's path.
Also, the Zulkirs would have booted the Simbul off her throne and gone "neener neener" at the Sor 20/Wiz 10 with the paltry caster level. |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2014 : 14:46:47
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| The Simbul also has two levels of Archmage and all the benefits being a Chosen of Mystra gives her, but yeah. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2014 : 18:26:14
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I like following the rules. Does not have to be perfect, but loosely following the rules makes it more enjoyable.
When an author makes Wizards seem like bumbling fools who can only cast fireballs and lightning bolts that can be dodged by a fighter, it kind of annoys me given the extreme abilities they possess. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2014 : 20:48:18
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Something has come to mind... If the novels were set with game-mechanics in mind, why don't they just resurrect all their fallen loved ones? I'm pretty sure True Resurrection, combined with an application of Wish/Miracle can take care of 99.9% of all deaths. SO why don't they? I mean surely characters like Elminster, Khelben, Srinshee and the chosen should have used Craft Contingency Spell to create wards and guards against ever dying in the first place. And why don't they transform into a Sarrukh and become Pun pun?
I think that most of the time, novels and characters within the novels should fit the story and the level of power that would be reasonable considering the previous novels.
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Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 30 Dec 2014 20:53:25 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2482 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2014 : 12:00:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Something has come to mind... If the novels were set with game-mechanics in mind, why don't they just resurrect all their fallen loved ones? I'm pretty sure True Resurrection, combined with an application of Wish/Miracle can take care of 99.9% of all deaths.
0) Why, thank you! Now you re-opened one of the oldest cans of worms. 
1) It does happen. Just not as often as in MUDs or stupid superhero comics. More so if you count failed attempts.
1A) It's inherently unpredictable lore-wise: the target spirit may or may not want - or be allowed, or ordered - to return. Assuming it's accessible at all at the casting time (there are options, if rather exotic ones).
2) It depends on the mechanics.
2A) In classic versions - not so much, it's always both unreliable and limited.
2B) In blatantly hack'n'slash oriented D&D3 (to elements of which you refer) - yes, it was made so that little munchkins could buy off consequences of their failures altogether.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2014 : 14:30:45
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Something has come to mind... If the novels were set with game-mechanics in mind, why don't they just resurrect all their fallen loved ones? I'm pretty sure True Resurrection, combined with an application of Wish/Miracle can take care of 99.9% of all deaths.
0) Why, thank you! Now you re-opened one of the oldest cans of worms.
1) It does happen. Just not as often as in MUDs or stupid superhero comics. More so if you count failed attempts.
1A) It's inherently unpredictable lore-wise: the target spirit may or may not want - or be allowed, or ordered - to return. Assuming it's accessible at all at the casting time (there are options, if rather exotic ones).
2) It depends on the mechanics.
2A) In classic versions - not so much, it's always both unreliable and limited.
2B) In blatantly hack'n'slash oriented D&D3 (to elements of which you refer) - yes, it was made so that little munchkins could buy off consequences of their failures altogether.
My point being, that the story should indeed come first, because that changing editions could shift the power in colossal ways, and if the novel author was an optimizer from GitP forums, then surely the world would collapse in on itself.
Infinite Wish loops, arbitrary high stats, contingencies for all your contingencies, and epic magic would probably make for a boring "press enter to win" scenario in most cases. For instance... "Elminster in Hell" should not have happened following 3.x rules - since an epic wizard like him would have been able to have foresight casted and would then have known that danger was afoot, he could then have either changed all his memorized spells with spell engine and with a snap of his fingers cast Greater Celerity and summoned some epic beast like the phaeton and teleported away before anything ever happened.
And as far as I know liches can only be destroyed if you destroy there phylactery. So a certain elf, blasting a Mythal absorbing lich, in the end of a reasonably new novel by Ed Greenwood would have only delayed said lich 1d10 days.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1575 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2015 : 08:04:44
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| Said elf, by Ed Greenwood's own stated levels, would never have been able to affect the lich either; she has more Hit Dice but less caster levels than he does. |
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GMWestermeyer
Learned Scribe
USA
215 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2015 : 08:24:14
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A HUGE FLAW with most FR novels has always been that they do not follow the rules, most specifically the magic rules.
This matters, because when you write fantasy, creating the rules for magic and sticking to them is one of the keys to maintaining a willing suspension of disbelief.
But most FR authors pay little or no attention to spell memorization, or any other aspect of the magic rules. And so the books might as well have different magic systems from book to book.
To a lesser degree this applies to class and race abilities. Not combat specific ones like number of attacks per round, that's a simplification and abstraction and descriptive narrative can serve the funtion of showing whose fast, whose strong, ect. But higher level rangers casting spells, thieves reading scrolls, ect.
The failure to follow the simple rules of the game, especially regarding magic, is one reason that so much FR fiction is cheap, forgettable pulpfantasy instead of literature.
I will say there are some real standouts amongst the writers, Jeff Grubb, Kate Novak, and Elaine Cunningham leap to mind. |
"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that is even remotely true."
Homer Simpson, _The Simspons_ |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2015 : 10:10:11
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Said elf, by Ed Greenwood's own stated levels, would never have been able to affect the lich either; she has more Hit Dice but less caster levels than he does.
Didnt Ed say something about him wanting the Srinshee to be the most powerful spellcaster in terms of casting ummph... as in caster level? I think it was in these halls that this was brought to my attension some years ago.
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1575 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 10:27:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Said elf, by Ed Greenwood's own stated levels, would never have been able to affect the lich either; she has more Hit Dice but less caster levels than he does.
Didnt Ed say something about him wanting the Srinshee to be the most powerful spellcaster in terms of casting ummph... as in caster level? I think it was in these halls that this was brought to my attension some years ago.
The result, however, is a multiclassed abberation of Wiz 29, Sor 16, Archmage 9. Larloch the 46th level lich laughs at her, because her caster levels don't even touch his even if we accept that the Archmage prestige class has somehow been extended to 9 levels. A pure wizard of her character level murders her in a straight fight.
From a pure caster level standpoint, Ed's Larloch is followed by Ioulaum, Shoon VII, Telamont, Rhangaun and so on. The Srinshee is between Rhangaun and Telamont (assuming 5 archmage stacks with wizard), or just about equal to Szass Tam (assuming archmage stacks with sorcerer).
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 15:50:06
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
The result, however, is a multiclassed abberation of Wiz 29, Sor 16, Archmage 9. Larloch the 46th level lich laughs at her, because her caster levels don't even touch his even if we accept that the Archmage prestige class has somehow been extended to 9 levels. A pure wizard of her character level murders her in a straight fight.
What's with the game designers obsession with multiclassing, anyway? Looking at the campaign guide for 3.0, it seems as though nearly every high level character is multiclass. I suppose from a story standpoint it's a little more realistic that characters would have a variety of skills instead of everyone slotting neatly into 11 different professions, but still. I may not know much about character builds, but even I can look at Storm Silverhand having levels in five different classes and think "That just doesn't look practical". Or Alustriel having 20 levels in wizard, and 2 levels in sorcerer. Seriously, what good's that gonna do? |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 16:39:09
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Multi classing in 3E was intended to allow builds that allowed players to cherry pick class abilities and to allow designers the same leeway when writing stats for NPCs.
For NPCs like Storm it wasn't about practicality, it was about using a rules set to better reflect who she was, and not what's optimal from a build standpoint. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jan 2015 : 18:38:08
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When I get home from work, ill show you just how powerful Srinshee Can be .
Edit: EDIT: The part about Ed saying what I believe he said, I think was from So saith Ed... But I'm unsure. I do also agree that whoever designed the NPC in FRCS did so after some obscure rule set or believe that Im unfamiliar with. And no disrespect for Ed's ability to create builds, but both his Larloch and Srinshee seems hopelessly un optimized to a degree that severely comes no where even remotely close to the representation, fame or reputation of either of them.
Now I have taken the liberty to create what I feel is a far more accurate representation of their abilities AND sheer power. We are at least talking about possible the two most powerful spell casters on the Face of Toril. One important point to acknowledge is that we play 3.x, thus my builds will be the best from both editions and has neither lore nor rules from 4th or 5th.
I am not strictly following the rules, but I feel that the rules are not any good for representing that kind of power and scope of ability.
The Srinshee
Lawful Good Augmented Sun Elf (Chosen of Mystra/ Chosen of the Seldarin)
Wizard 20/ Arch Mage 5/ Olin Gisir 10/ Incantatrix 10/ Elven High Mage 10.
Str: =35 +12
Dex: =35 +12
Con: =33 +11
Int: =66 +28
Wis: =40 +15
Cha: =40 +15
Feats: Feats: Ability Enhancer, Alertness, Arcane Manipulation, Arcane Transfiguration, Combat Reflexes, Compelling Caster, Ears of the Mage, Energy Admixture x5, Energy Substitution x5, Eschew Material, Extend Spell, Extraordinary Concentration, Extra Slot x5, Eyes of the Mage, Footsteps of the Mage Great Fortitude, Hands of the Mage x2, Heighten Spell, Improved Counterspell, Improved Initiative, Insightful Caster, Iron Will, Item Reprieve, Lightning Reflexes, Mysterious Magic, Practised Spellcaster, Presence of the Mage, Reactive Counterspell, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spellcasting Prodigy, Spell Focus (All 8 schools), Spell Focus [Greater] (All 8 schools), Spell Girding, Spell Mantle, Spell Penetration, Spell Penetration [Greater], Spell Reprieve, Voice of the Mage.
Epic Feats: Epic Counterspell, Automatic Quicken x3, Multi Spellx3, Epic Spell Focus (All 8 Schools), Automatic Silent Spell x3, Automatic Still Spell x3, Intensify Spell, Improved Spell Capacity x3, Great Intelligence, Improved Meta-magic, Enhance Spell x 2, Permanent Emanation x 3, Epic Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Epic Spell Penetration, Ignore Material Component, Efficient Item Creation x 16) (Greater Arcane Manipulation(Homebrew).
Item Creation Feats: (10) Scribe Scroll, Brew Potion, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Staff, Forge Ring, Attune Gem, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Contingent Spell, Portal Master, Craft True Artifact
Epic Item Creation Feats: (7) Scribe epic Scroll, Brew epic Potion, Craft epic Magic Arms and Armor, Craft epic Staff, Forge epic Ring, Attune epic Gem, Craft epic Wondrous Item.
Bonus Wizard Feats: (4) Scribe Scroll, Still Spell, Silent Spell, Maximize Spell, Quicken Spell.
Bonus Incantatrix Feats: (5) Widen Spell, Delay Spell, Empower Spell, Enhance Spell, Improved Meta-Magic.
Bonus Elven High Mage Feats: (2) Improved Snatch Spell, Improved Meta-Magic.
Items:
Being over 4000 years old, the last survivor of Sharven, Grand Mage of the High Mages of Cormanthor, leader of the Srinshinnar, and thus her commonly known title, Wardnorn of the Vault of Ages, the Lorenorn for the Armathors and her last status, High Court Mage of Myth Drannor, she has access to almost any known item, spell or artifact ever created. And what she doesn’t have, she doesn’t need
CL: 54
Base spell DC: 52
I have giving her extencive amounts of epic items. Which are included in her stats total.
She is not complete, she also has the benefit of all 6 possible known chapters of the nether scrolls in the golden tree form. She also has all the benefits of being chosen of Mystra and the Seldarine(homebrew), which are also included in the stats total.
I apologize for this off topic delay... please continue.  |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 03 Jan 2015 22:41:34 |
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Austin the Archmage
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 01:11:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
And no disrespect for Ed's ability to create builds, but both his Larloch and Srinshee seems hopelessly un optimized to a degree that severely comes no where even remotely close to the representation, fame or reputation of either of them.
They're hardly the only important NPCs to have that problem, or so I've heard. I don't know if it's true, but I also heard that when 3rd edition started the pre existing NPCs were put through a basic 2 to 3 character converter, hence why their builds are terrible. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2015 : 02:56:16
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The stats for NPCs beyond 20th level in the 3E FRCS are the way they are because the Epic Level rules set was not yet complete.
To my knowledge the game designers did not use any sort of converter to turn 2E NPCs into 3E NPCs for the FRCS. Instead they wrote from scratch--again, to show the ways the rules could be used to better realize NPCs (and therefore PCs) as they'd been depicted up to that point in the novels and sourcebooks.
I realize that for some gamers this last means "optimize to the max," but frankly there's a little more going on in the Realms than NPCs thinking of themselves in terms of game stats.
Understand that the 3E rules were still under way. A lot of the cheese people liked to use in builds hadn't been written yet.
Regarding Ed: he doesn't write in 3E rules. When that's needed, someone like Sean Reynolds (and later Eric Boyd, if I recall correctly) does the work. See the various Wyrms of the North articles for examples of Ed doing the describing and Sean doing the stat writing. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Realms authors who follow the rule books
