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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Oct 2012 : 22:13:35
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I don't think Szass Tam's actions are left open to speculation in the Neverwinter book thingy. It says what he is doing and why, its not mysterious.
And how often had Szass Tam surprised people. He may not be the greatest manipulator/mastermind/trickster in the Realms, but he certainly is one.
Of course, you may say this is just me trying to see sense in his actions in Neverwinter. Otherwise, it would appear that RAS and his editors deliberately or ignorantly threw previous lore (and by that, I mean RLB's books); or that they want to show how great a fool Szass Tam is. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 05:23:35
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Szass Tam isn't a perfect Mary Sue character. None of the villains in the realms are infallible, or else they would not have been created. They exist for their plots to be foiled = P
His defeating all the other Zulkirs seemed really lame and deux ex machina to me. "I can control all my minion's minds with magic better than the entire school of enchantment la la la". His rise to power would have made more sense as it was set out in Spellbound with some of the Zulkirs supporting him... him doing it all alone was a stupid idea. |
Edited by - MrHedgehog on 02 Oct 2012 05:27:10 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Oct 2012 : 06:18:30
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I did NOT say he is perfect or infallible. If he were, he would have successfully cast the Ritual of Unmaking. Nevertheless, he is no fool. His madness, either as one of the side effects of the process of lichdom, or simply the result of existing for centuries, is also a factor that makes him dream BIG, insanely big. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 13 Nov 2012 02:05:38 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2013 : 13:51:22
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I was going to create a new 'fixing Thay' thread, but this one is recent enough and related enough, and so long as Dennis doesn't mind, I'd like to continue the discussion.
In my current campaign, my Thay is both quite a bit different then published Thay, and yet at its heart, it is still Thay (circa 1372 or so). What I picture is the Thayans still setting up their enclaves, but they are more like embassies, mostly based on their trade (just a century or so ago, they dominated the Inner Sea with their galleys, but newer ship-types introduced from the Swordcoast has made most of their navy obsolete, and other countries are now on the rise). So NO Thaymart... at least not on the surface.
The idea is that their enclaves officially are little more then embassies, which handle their 'trade relations' with other nations. What they are really doing is bribing local officials, and slowly taking over the local political landscape, with the idea of controlling other nations in this manner, but surreptitiously (the 'power behind the throne' situation). This actually isn't all that different then how they were originally presented to us in FR. I like the enclaves as a concept, but I don't like they way they spun them. Maybe they weren't going for that level of silliness - a chain of 'magical convenience stores' - but thats how it turned out.
On the other hand, because the enclaves DO have an agenda, part of that should be controlling the Black Market in any area they have an enclave, and to that end they would be smuggling-in illicit magical paraphernalia, which they would be willing to sell to certain 'agreeable' folks. They might even be willing to gift certain items to some folk in exchange for 'favors'. This is part of their plan - not only do they get the cooperation of local politicians, underworld types, and police through these items, but they also place certain spells on the items themselves, to help 'track' activities and keep tabs on everyone.
In that way, the enclaves are doing something along the same lines as it is in published material, but it gives the whole thing a much more sinister, more clandestine spin. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2013 : 16:02:31
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Of course I don't mind, MT.
As for the enclaves, I honestly don't give them that much thought. To me, they're nothing more than (as you and other scribes described quite well) mere magical convenience stores. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11866 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2013 : 21:37:52
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| that's pretty much how I've always envisioned the enclaves. Corruption run rampant. They bring in drugs and distribute them. They may provide intelligent magic items that seek to control their owner. They may allow certain individuals to use their portals, of course, noting where the person went... and of course, requiring favors in return. However, they also use them to magically transport their surplus produce, and they can do it efficiently since they're widespread. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2013 : 01:30:58
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| my only bit to add to this is: I really liked the old Red Magic book. What they did with Tamm after that made me wish Maligor had won. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2013 : 14:40:40
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I liked that novel too, save the silly Harpers. I would have liked it as well if Maligor had won, though not to the point that he'd slay Szass Tam. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2013 : 18:49:05
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Well, thats why I am trying to make the 'Thaymart stores' more sinister in nature, something along the lines of a front for a Thayan black market (I could even call it the 'Red Market'). 
Basically, someone goes to an enclave to do business with Thay, but then while there can ask (discreetly) about 'other services' (drugs, slaves, contraband magic, etc). There'd be what they are openly known for (as trade embassies), and also what underworld types understand them to really be (information-gathering, sowing unrest, checkpoints for Thayan agents, etc). Kinda like the Red Wizard equivalent of a Harper safehouse, combined with regular embassy features.
They'd also make themselves very useful to everyone, being information-brokers (and thus coming into direct conflict with Kraken Society, amongst others). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Mar 2013 18:51:33 |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 00:36:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I liked that novel too, save the silly Harpers. I would have liked it as well if Maligor had won, though not to the point that he'd slay Szass Tam.
Yeah, I meant to that extent. I think the post Spellbound changes in Thay revolving around Tam are awful, like "Hey I know, lets totally change who and what the Red Wizards and Thay are! Genius idea." "Yeah, they're too mean, lets have them sell stuff instead." "Oooh, and I like undead so lets have more of those too!" |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 03:12:10
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| I enjoyed the Haunted Land novels. They were very entertaining and fun...but I don't like the impact they had on Thay and found a lot of what happened unrealistic to the point of absurdity. I think Thay was more interesting before. What do you do in an undead ravaged land with a tyrant who can apparently control everything? It isn't interesting. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 05:21:44
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It depends on what you consider "interesting." I doubt Szaa Tam's rule will continue forever. Change is the only thing that's constant in the Realms. One day, some determined Red Wizards would try to seize Thay out of Szass Tam's grip, and would likely seek alliance from an outside realm or two (Aglarond, Rashemen, Cormyr, Waterdeep, Thesk, Calimport, etc.) to aid them in their campaign, offering staggering bounty after their success. Such future political intrigue and war would be interesting to see. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2013 : 21:37:45
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| I got the impression from the books he could somehow control the minds of his school (but Lauzoril somehow couldn't...?) I did not like that. The war would have made more sense if say two other schools supported him (like Divination and Illusion or something) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 13:11:04
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Who said Lauzoril didn't control a bunch of strong echanters? He could have "charmed" (magically or naturally) those enchanters that went to join him and his fellow zulkirs in their campaign against Szass Tam. Just because it wasn't explicitly stated in the novels doesn't mean it didn't happen. Come to think of it, when they were at the Wizards Reach trying to "rebuild" their forces, knowing fully well that Szass Tam alreadly had Thay in his tight grip, those enchanters, along with the powerful lackeys of the zulkirs from other schools, could have easily deserted their superiors and pledged allegiance to Szass Tam, or start a mercenary life somewhere, or relinquish their Red Wizard-hood (ridding their red robes and tattoos and growing some hair) and start a totally new life somewhere relatively safer. But they never did. Why is that? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe
USA
388 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 20:05:56
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I'd prefer a Thay somewhere between the current version and the old version. Instead of zombie Mordor, Thay outwardly appears as it always has. However, there's rumors of ungodly experimentation in laboratories and catacombs beneath Thay. Of foul smells and inhuman shapes seen in the mists and overgrown tangles surrounding the strange buildings that the Red Wizards have shown tremendous interest in.
Those buildings are, of course, the Dread Rings (or attempts at reconstructing them after Unholy); the Red Wizards would be under the control of the Zulkirs, who ouwardly bicker and squabble but are all firmly under Tam's control. There's vast networks of tunnels under Thay, where the undead patrol and keep tabs on the whole of the realm's citizens. Any hints of dissent, uprising or conspiracy is dealt with in the night; the undead emerge and drag the traitors to the realm into the catacombs. In the Red Wizards' labs, the conspirators are added to the ranks of undead guardians. |
"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul
"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 04 Mar 2013 : 23:16:12
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I like the idea of Szass Tam being a supreme Zulkir but there still being eight other under Zulkirs (so he is like the master Zulkir and now there is another Zulkir of Necromancy beholden to him as well as one for each school of magic like before...not necessarily all liches as I think was implied) And for it not to be a ruined zombie wasteland but similar to how it was before.
But I also like the idea of a Thayan diaspora with Red Wizard enclaves everywhere who want to eventually tear down Szass Tam from power. I would assume large numbers of Thayans and Red Wizards fled during the civil war and certainly after their two defeats. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1847 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 14:36:37
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I would like to see Thay 'return' with its original (still surviving) Zulkirs becoming staunch allies for newer, stronger Thay. Tammy should be imprisoned within his dread rings (or whatever they were called).
Sorry for the thread resurrection but I came across this during a search and couldn't help meself. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 15:02:10
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The one positive thing 4e did for us in regards to Thay is that it nerfed the whole, silly 'Thaymart' concept. That can't be blamed on 4e, that was 3e, and 4e is helping us to get that part back to how it should have been.
Thus, a 'renewed Thay' would be very isolationist, as the factions reasserted themselves, and the infrastructure rebuilt. Dark. Mysterious. Magical. Dangerous.
Thats the Thay I remember, and thats the Thay I want. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Dec 2013 15:02:40 |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 15:08:46
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There is only one way to deal with Thay post Zombie-pocalypse: PURGE WITH FIRE!
Luckily Thay had a lot of worshippers of Kossuth so i say: give us a great theocracy and keep the "new" trading Red Wizards away, they won't ever be the old ones so give us fanatic pyromaniacs instead. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 15:48:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Luckily Thay had a lot of worshippers of Kossuth
Not in the current Thay. They were pretty much slaughtered during the War of the Zulkirs. And not other religion exists in the land except Bane's. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 15:49:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The one positive thing 4e did for us in regards to Thay is that it nerfed the whole, silly 'Thaymart' concept.
Not quite. They simply chose not to feature it in the novels. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Demzer
Senior Scribe
877 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 15:57:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Demzer
Luckily Thay had a lot of worshippers of Kossuth
Not in the current Thay. They were pretty much slaughtered during the War of the Zulkirs. And not other religion exists in the land except Bane's.
That's why i said "had".
1 - Greatest concentration of organized worshippers slaughtered
2 - Holy avenging crusade ... PURGE WITH FIRE!!!
3 - ???
4 - Profit
In all seriousness, i despise what they did to Thay. It was another nail in the coffin for the 4e Realms for me. So, since i took the nation in another direction in my home Realms and 5e needs a frigging miracle to get me interested in canon Thay again they might as well turn it into a theocracy of fanatic pyromaniacs, at least then i can laugh while reading about it and picturing red robed warrior priests setting the f*****g zoophiliac b*****s of Rashemen and their drunk toy boys on fire. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2013 : 16:07:34
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Haha. What a picture it must be.
Fear not, though, for Szass Tam's actions lately seem to indicate he'd be overstretching his limits soon. Building Dread Rings in the Sword Coast where many major cities are well prepared to crush any potential threats? A particularly unwise move. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thay... then or now? (Potential Spoilers)
