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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 04:00:24
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| Interesting. I never even knew they had been renamed, as I came in during the height of the 2nd ed hay-day. I do have a few of the older books from before that- like the original Fiend Folio, but I'm most familiar with the terms from the 2nd ed MM and the Planescape stuff. And I also agree with IK- I still have trouble remembering all the names, myself. Then again, I rarely ever use outer-planar creatures in my games. I've done barghests, a shadow demon, a few lower-level pit-fiends, and a cat lord, and not much else. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 11:49:10
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religious connotations, bring them on, tough unless I'm using names like God, Devil, Satan or Lucifer my players have no idea
names like baatezu, yugololoth and tanar'ri are pretty good, I keep the 3e take on them where they are subraces of devils, demons and daemons, except devils are called inphe or infernals
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36874 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 14:47:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
religious connotations, bring them on, tough unless I'm using names like God, Devil, Satan or Lucifer my players have no idea
Wait -- your players are totally unaware of real-world religious connotations behind terms like devil and demon? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 16:31:21
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| I never liked the 2nd edition names. For me it increased the feeling that the demons and devils were just another group of monster races. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 17:42:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
religious connotations, bring them on, tough unless I'm using names like God, Devil, Satan or Lucifer my players have no idea
Wait -- your players are totally unaware of real-world religious connotations behind terms like devil and demon?
devils are renamed, but it wouldn't be a big deal unless I translate the word
demon is not so infamous word in our language, kinda like ''alien'' |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 08:35:08
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'Kay, I wrote that Planescape article emphasising the differences between various half-fiends and that they are not all hideous. Been sent, we'll see if there's anything to add/change in it.
Now I'm wondering about making a homebrew addition to "Half-Fiendish Variety" featuring some of those half-breeds not mentioned in the WotC article. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 10:28:43
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Add-on to Half-Fiendish Variety
The following half-fiends are in Half-fiendish Variety: Half-marilith, half-goristro, half-ekolid, half-glabrezu, half-yochlol, half-molydeus, half-succubus (half-pleasure devil), half-nabassu.
Below you can find new half-fiend templates created by me in accordance with the rules presented in the article. If nothing is changed, please refer to the normal half-fiend template in SRD.
Half-babau
Size & Type: outsider. Size is not changed.
Speed: no wings
Natural armor: +2 bonus.
Attack: like normal half-fiend (bite & claws)
Damage: like normal half-fiend
Special attacks: like normal half-fiend (smite good)
Spell-like abilities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exceptions: 3-4 dispel magic; 5-6 see invisibility, 13-14 greater teleportation
Special qualities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exception: DR 5/good (HD <11) or 10/good (HD >11)
Attributes: Str +4 Dex +2 Con +4 Int +2 Cha +4.
Skills: Treat the following as class skills regarding the outsider skills: Move Silently, Listen, Open Lock, Disguise, Search, Survival, Hide, Disable Devices, Use Rope, Climb, Escape Artist, Pick Pocket
Challenge Rating: like normal half-fiend
Alignment: like normal half-fiend
Level Adjustment: like normal half-fiend
Half-balor
Size & Type: outsider. Size is not changed.
Speed: like normal half-fiend
Natural armor: +4 bonus
Attack: slam, no bite
Damage: 1d6 + Str bonus
Special attacks: like normal half-fiend (smite good)
Spell-like abilities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exceptions: 1-2 HD telekinesis, 15-16 HD power word stun; 17-18 HD implosion; 19+ HD fire storm
Special qualities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exception: DR 5/good (HD <11) or 10/good (HD >11)
Attributes: Str +6 Dex +2 Con +4 Int +2 Cha +2
Skills: Treat the following as class skills regarding the outsider skills: Bluff, Move Silently, Spellcraft, Diplomacy, Concentration, Listen, Disguise, Search, Spot, Use Magic Device, Survival, Hide, Knwoledge (any two), Sense Motive, Intimidate
Challenge Rating: HD < 4 CR +2; HD 5-10, CR +3; HD >11, CR +4
Alignment: like normal half-fiend
Level Adjustment: like normal half-fiend
Half-bebilith
Size & type: outsider. If the base creature is large or bigger, its size category increases by 1.
Speed: climb (half the base land speed of base creature)
Natural armor: +3 bonus
Attack: like normal half-fiend (bite & claws)
Damage: like normal half-fiend
Special attacks: like normal half-fiend (smite good)
Spell-like abilities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exceptions: 15-16 HD plane swap
Special qualities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exception: DR 5/good (HD <11) or 10/good (HD >11)
Attributes: Str +6 Dex +2 Con +6 Cha +2
Skills: Treat the following as class skills regarding the outsider skills: Move Silently, Diplomacy, Listen, Search, Jump, Spot, Survival, Hide, Climb, Sense Motive
Challenge Rating: HD < 4 CR +2; HD 5-10, CR +3; HD >11, CR +4. Further +1 increase if the size was increased.
Alignment: like normal half-fiend
Level Adjustment: like normal half-fiend
Half-dretch
Size & type: outsider. Size is not changed.
Speed: no wings
Natural armor: +1 bonus
Attack: like normal half-fiend (bite & claws)
Damage: like normal half-fiend
Special attacks: like normal half-fiend (smite good)
Spell-like abilities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exceptions: 3-4 HD scare; 5-6 HD stinking cloud
Special qualities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exception: DR 5/good (HD <11) or 10/good (HD >11)
Attributes: like normal half-fiend
Skills: Treat the following as class skills regarding the outsider skills: Move Silently, Listen, Search, Spot, Survival, Hide
Challenge Rating: like normal half-fiend
Alignment: like normal half-fiend
Level Adjustment: like normal half-fiend
Half-hezrou
Size & type: outsider. Size is not changed.
Speed: no wings
Natural armor: +3 bonus
Attack: like normal half-fiend (bite & claws)
Damage: like normal half-fiend
Special attacks: like normal half-fiend (smite good)
Spell-like abilities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exceptions: 13-14 HD chaos hammer; 15-16 HD gaseous form
Special qualities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exception: DR 5/good (HD <11) or 10/good (HD >11)
Attributes: Str +4 Con +6 Int +2 Cha +4
Skills: Treat the following as class skills regarding the outsider skills: Move Silently, Spellcraft, Concentration, Search, Listen, Spot,Survival, Hide, Use Rope, Climb, Escape Artist, Intimidate
Challenge Rating: like normal half-fiend
Alignment: like normal half-fiend
Level Adjustment: like normal half-fiend
Half-nalfeshnee
Half-hezrou
Size & type: outsider. Size is not changed.
Speed: like normal half-fiend
Natural armor: +3 bonus
Attack: like normal half-fiend (bite & claws)
Damage: like normal half-fiend
Special attacks: like normal half-fiend (smite good)
Spell-like abilities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exceptions: 3-4 HD slow, 7-8 HD feeblemind, 15-16 call lightning
Special qualities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exception: DR 5/good (HD <11) or 10/good (HD >11)
Attributes: Str +4 Con +4 Int +4 Cha +4
Skills: Treat the following as class skills regarding the outsider skills: Bluff, Move Silently, Spellcraft, Diplomacy, Concentration, Listen, Disguise, Search, Spot, Use Magic Device, Survival, Hide, Knowledge (arcana), Sense Motive, Intimidate
Challenge Rating: like normal half-fiend
Alignment: like normal half-fiend
Level Adjustment: like normal half-fiend
Half-vrock
Size & type: outsider. Size is not changed.
Speed: like normal half-fiend
Natural armor: +3 bonus
Attack: like normal half-fiend (bite & claws)
Damage: like normal half-fiend
Special attacks: like normal half-fiend (smite good)
Spell-like abilities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exceptions: 3-4 HD mirror image, 15-16 HD heroism
Special qualities: like normal half-fiend, with the following exception: DR 5/good (HD <11) or 10/good (HD >11)
Attributes: Str +4 Dex +2 Con +6 Int +2 Cha +2
Skills: Treat the following as class skills regarding the outsider skills: Move Silently, Spellcraft, Diplomacy, Concentration, Listen, Search, Spot, Survival, Hide, Knowledge (any one), Sense Motive, Intimidate
Challenge Rating: like normal half-fiend
Alignment: like normal half-fiend
Level Adjustment: like normal half-fiend
----------------------
Any comments?
Part II to come - half-devils. Pt. III - offspring of fiends from other sources (ex. Fiend Folio). |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
Edited by - Zireael on 29 Oct 2010 13:42:09 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
697 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 15:40:23
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What I find odd is that some evil-aligned outsiders (not technically demons or devils) were mentioned as potentially being the bloodlines of some Tieflings (and therefore being in the blood of a half-fiend before them) on pages 125 and 126 of Races of Faerun. They were Night Hags and Rasksasha.
However, seeing that at least male human coupling with a hag should technically produce a Hagspawn, I find the former case possibly being a misnomer. Raksasha, I'm not too sure about either. Yugoloths, I could see, but they'd probably be less frequently prevalent in half-fiend bloodline than demons or devils. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
Edited by - Galuf the Dwarf on 29 Oct 2010 15:40:42 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 16:57:26
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Zireael, you might be interested in the Green Ronin's 3.5 tome Aasimar & Tieflings: a guide book to the planetouched. It notes almost all possible stat adjustments for all the varying planar crossbreeds. From half-outsider (such as Nephilim and Cambions) to templated races (such as the Jinx gnome-fiends, Fetch halfling-dretches, Similem halfelven invisible stalkers, and more) you'll find just what you need in it.
It's got some great art too! |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 18:10:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
What I find odd is that some evil-aligned outsiders (not technically demons or devils) were mentioned as potentially being the bloodlines of some Tieflings (and therefore being in the blood of a half-fiend before them) on pages 125 and 126 of Races of Faerun. They were Night Hags and Rasksasha.
However, seeing that at least male human coupling with a hag should technically produce a Hagspawn, I find the former case possibly being a misnomer. Raksasha, I'm not too sure about either. Yugoloths, I could see, but they'd probably be less frequently prevalent in half-fiend bloodline than demons or devils.
Maybe those were half-fiend rakshasa or night hag.
And half-yugoloths will probably feature in Pt. IV of my little work.
@ up: Thanks, will check it out. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
697 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2010 : 19:35:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
[quote]Maybe those were half-fiend rakshasa or night hag.
No, those were not mentioned as being half-fiends at all, only full-blooded varieties of their species. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
Edited by - Galuf the Dwarf on 29 Oct 2010 19:35:50 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 18:09:38
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Then it's weird.
Pt. II of half-fiends coming soon!
I'm thinking about making the same type of thing for half-celestials. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Arianthus Deszault
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 18:28:10
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I would like to bring up the "joining into a pact causes physical transformation" discussion again. I think that a physical transformation is just as likely an effect of the pact as Warlocks gaining the ability to fling bolts of unholy power are. It isn't necessarily something that would happen to all Warlocks, but it is something that could. It could then be passed down through the generations.
I also like to think that a pact involves a magical ritual. In any world where magic of the D&D variety is possible, anything else is feasibly possible. A spell that links to the Abyss could, perhaps, corrupt the blood or mind of the channeler. The spell may even require a magical transfusion of blood from the outsider. Couple this with the idea that an evil outsiders corruption could warp a person physically and mentally and who knows what can happen!
My 2 cents. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 12:12:34
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@Arianthus:
A simple idea with infinitely complex answers. It treads the line of theology and blurs the definitions of morality. I agree with your viewpoint, since "corruption" fundamentally needs to be spiritual, not physical. All those fiends, demons, and devils need to establish a foothold into the world by tainting somebody's soul before they can actually manifest any sort of physical presence anyhow. (Likewise, all those glowing pure angelic sorts need to meddle and twist the hearts of mortals to establish their foothold in the world. So do the gods.)
But I think the basic facts of the matter are
1) D&D, as a product line, must carefully avoid stepping into the muddy mire of controversial demon/devil worshipping badness. Part of this compromise is a tacit and deliberate attempt to be inoffensive to real-world religious canons. Today's society is more sophisticated than it was 20-30 years ago, and D&D is seen as less of a dark influence for warping innocent young minds (compared to XBox, at least) ... but it's still good business practice to be a little diplomatic.
2) D&D is a predominantly rules-based game. Numerical, mechanistic rules; tables, charts, and choices. Contrary to what each new rule book says in the rules, you suddenly "need" all these new rules to play the same D&D you've always played before. The scribes of Candlekeep have filled thousands of scrolls with rules and rules arguments.
So "corruption" of the character should be something that can somehow be avoided, dodged, or resisted. Or allow a saving throw. Or be corrected through the use of an expensive spell. Hard numbers, cause and effect, dice and player choices. It's not supposed to be determined by ambiguous and blurry moral dilemnas. It's not as if any DM is truly capable of accurately measuring morality anyhow.
There have been plenty of D&D rules-based variants over the years, though ... evil "taint", magic systems causing corruption and insanity, the dreadful Ravenloft setting, to name a few offhand. My personal experience is that these systems are interesting novelties but eventually set a tone of darkness, despair, and doom which takes more away from the game than it adds. There's other games which deal with vampires, demons, and conspiracies which people find enjoyable - but none of them are D&D. Mass murdering monsters and minions is all big happy fun, but fighting against the torments of your own inner (or outer?) demons is a little bit too provocative and heavy to make for recreational gameplay. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Nov 2010 12:14:23 |
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Arianthus Deszault
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2010 : 23:15:01
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Arik:
You make perfectly good points there, and I agree completely. I was looking at things with more of a novel standpoint, where your first point rings especially true, a fine line must be tread.
When you use a gameplay standpoint, it does make morality/corruption much more difficult to work with! It is something that may work in a one-on-one game (and that's a big may). I can't see a non-mechanics based morality working with a group of 3 or 4 without doing exactly what you said about the campaigns "mood" per se. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2010 : 15:24:33
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D&D novels are already infamous for taking liberties with the game mechanics. Another boldly controversial topic here at Candlekeep. D&D purists see "bad" or "impossible" rules violations all over the place, pure fantasy fiction fans see the D&D rules universe as literally constraining and unimaginative. I'm one of the crowd who prefer to stand on a compromising middle ground: I see the purpose of the novels as being entertainment and I value interesting story and character interactions more than slavish adherence to the game rules; provided that the Realms setting remains fairly intact and "cheating" details aren't rampantly abused by the author without good reason. Heroes are defined by the quality of the villains and obstacles which oppose them, so if the bad guy needs to break some rules to build a better story then I'm all for it.
I'm not saying campaigns which explore deep and dark complex moral issues are all dismal, and a little bit of healthy horror is refreshing every now and then, but I (and my group) generally prefer to spend our creative energies exploring more pleasant aspects of role-playing gaming. There's plenty of terror, injustice, depression, apathy, ennui, and nihilism in the real world, D&D is one little way for groups of friends to "escape" from it for a little while and enjoy straightforward simple rewards and victories from pounding against the forces of evil.
I don't want to seem like some kind of pessimist, but really, a good part of the reason I play D&D is to have a good time with my friends, not to be violated by the sorts of fear and powerlessness I might feel when banging into RL criminals, haters, bureaucrats, lawyers, and politicians. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Nov 2010 15:27:08 |
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Kanya Skulls
Acolyte
17 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 01:42:57
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@ Arik
Sorry if I will sound a little rude but... what does it have to do with the topic at hand? The title is "Demons/devils that are able to have half-fiends", not "Rants about novels and mechanics" or "Horror campaigns are bad". Please, don't go offtopic. |
Disclaimer: I spewed all of this out off the top of my head and make no claim whatsoever that any of it is accurate or even correct. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 17:26:33
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| Actually, the two subjects are related- when one is dealing with demons or devils, morality concepts for how this happens come into play. Thus the discussion of using game mechanics to explain the results of such deviations of morality. And I don't think he is saying that horror campaigns are bad, just that the air of doom tends to be stifling in D&D games. As he said, there are other settings/systems out there for that. Ravenloft aside, the idea of creating demonic half-bloods has been tied to pacts with evil outsiders in the past, which adds a lot more darkness to the game than most people prefer. I like a bit of horror now and then, myself. One of the best games I ran had a barghest as the main enemy, and lots of undead and really scary stuff! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 19:29:57
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Well now, to be fair, Kanya did make an effort to be polite and I was guilty (not for the first time) of completely derailing and dominating the topic of an otherwise fine thread.
But yes, the topics are tangentially related. Fiends are native to the lower planes, which is another way of saying that they are born in a dimension where evil and corruption are essential building blocks of their existence as much as flesh and blood are the building blocks of ours. Half-fiends could (and most probably do) combine the worst aspects of both worlds. I don't see any problem with fiends procreating with corrupted humans on a purely spiritual level. They may have no particular interest in corrupting flesh and blood at all, at least until they discover the spiritual associations small-minded mortals make between these things. I'd think it's impossible for a half-fiend to be conceived without the presence of evil in both parents. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2011 : 16:44:37
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| The fanzin won't be published, since my article was the only one sent. I've published the article in Polish at the Polish forum. After my exams - that is, in February - I'll try to translate it (without the stylized language of Sigil, I'm afraid) and post it here. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2011 : 14:15:42
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| Ouch. I'll admit I forgot about it completely. I'll try to translate it though. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2012 : 10:08:01
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*swears loudly*
Studies, work, and I completely forgot about translating the article. Oh my! I hope I'll really get around to this! |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Demons/devils that are able to have half-fiends
