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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 14:02:46
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trying imagine which fey realms border and are coterminous with particular parts of the North and how would the Realms' ''echo'' or the Feywild looks like geographically
if you had a bunch of conflicting sources on the fey, like Bastion Press' Faeries, Pathfinder's AP #36, 4e's Feywild, Dragon 367, Beyond Countless Doorways, Planescape stuff from Planes of Chaos and Tir na Nog, etc., how would you make them all work together?
e.g. Auril's realm could be north of the Spine of the World, the Lands of Eternal Summer in the Greenfields, or the Sands of Time in Anauroch
any idea is welcomed
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2010 : 14:23:20
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these are certain, already used in a campaign
fey-fairs described in Jack Vance's Lyonesse - Moonshaes
the market from Hellboy 2 - behind the Warrens of Waterdeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36844 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 02:46:47
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Since one of the few "reliable" features in any description of Faerie is how chaotic it can be, with contradictory elements parked right next to each other, I don't think there's much need to make them all work together.
Faerie is the one place you can pick and choose exactly what you want, put it wherever you want, and not have to try to apply logic to it.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 03:35:13
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The Feywild also ebbs and flows, so a part of Faerie that might be 'next to' the high Forest one day may not be coterminous to it for another century. yet another part of the Feywild may take its place adjacent to the high forest, while the former fey location could now be coterminous to Celene in Greyhawk (making Faerie a possible transitive plain, except for the apparent randomness of the geography from day to day).
Time also moves strangely in regards to the Feywild - that's canon.
This is what I think - in regions where the planer boundaries (with the Prime Material) are thinnest, it 'grounds' that part of Faerie close to it, thereby making it somewhat more stable then most of the Feywild. So what you get are 'pockets' of stability within the Feywild where travel to (and from) the Prime is easiest. The areas between these semi-stable regions are more random, and become quite chaotic the further one goes from a terminus point, which usually takes some form of physical marker on the Prime, like a Faerie (mushroom) ring.
So the further you get from your point of entry (the terminus), the more distorted time and space become.
In a strange way, it almost makes Faerie just like a miniature model of the universe itself, with the Coterminus areas being the feywild equivalent of crystal spheres, like bubbles of reality floating in a chaotic soup. When you travel within it you wind up with a situation similar to what you have when folks in Eberron travel in Xendrik: a trip could take you three weeks, or it could take just a couple of hours, and it changes each time you make the trip. This leads to some pretty strange things, like parties leaving after arriving somewhere before parties that left first (and they never encounter each other).
Which makes me wonder just how much Xendrik is out of phase with the Prime material (since it acts a lot like the feywild). Or does Eberron's system actually lie outside of the prime Material, maybe even within the Feywild? (it is rather odd compared to all other D&D worlds)
But that's a train of thought for another thread... or even another site. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2010 16:19:38 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 10:33:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Since one of the few "reliable" features in any description of Faerie is how chaotic it can be, with contradictory elements parked right next to each other, I don't think there's much need to make them all work together.
Faerie is the one place you can pick and choose exactly what you want, put it wherever you want, and not have to try to apply logic to it.
I know, but you got to pick and choose at some time, such is the purpose of this thread. It's chaotic indeed, other features of fey include ''balance'' and ''cycles'', I picture mobile realms depending on the seasons, e.g. Auril's realm expanding in winter, then retreating behind the Spine. Also cause the rules are flexible, there are some exceptions to them, there'd be certain fixed points that are always there, like a few doorways that druids and bards know about. Then there are ''anchors'' to the fey realms, like the one I mentioned from Lyonesse, the earth nodes, faerzress and ley lines could be similar in a way, and megaliths (from Mystara) could be chronomantic anchors in the ethereal seas of uncertainty, lol.
For example in Faeries there's queen Titania of the Eternal Spring, Feywild has Tiandra of the Court of Stars, Morwel of the Court of Stars, Titania of the Unseelie Court (Great Wheel), Mystara's Titania, Beyond Countless Doorways has Faraenyl's Kingdom of Summer. I know the fey realms are weird enough so when the pcs visit each time there could be different version, that can be fun. I want to use the best parts of all versions at the same time, life's too short for an adventurer, there are too many places to see besides the fey realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Feywild also ebbs and flows, so a part of Faerie that might be 'next to' the high Forest one day may not be coterminous to it for another century. yet another part of the Feywild may take its place adjacent to the high forest, while the former fey location could now be coterminous to Celene in Greyhawk (making Faerie a possible transitive plain, except for the apparent randomness of the geography from day to day).
yes, except I don't play there, now if any of its Fading Lands like the Court of Rings, or even Celene became coterminous with the Realms, e.g. the Moonwood, that'd be interesting
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Time also moves strangely in regards to the Feywild - that's canon.
that's why I thought some Faerie's still echoes the pre-Sundering times, or the fall of Tintageer was caused by the Sundering in the future
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This is what I think - in regions where the planer boundaries (with the Prime Material) are thinnest, it 'grounds' that part of Faerie close to it, thereby making it somewhat more stable then most of the Feywild. So what you get are 'pockets' of stability within the Feywild where trave to (and from) the Prime is easiest. The areas between these semi-stable regions are more random, and become quite chaotic the further one goes from a terminus point, which usually takes some form of physical marker on the Prime, like a Faerie (mushroom) ring.
that's good, Faerie rings fit with other ideas I have about the earth nodes, and ley lines anchoring Faerie to Faerun
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So the further you get from your point of entry (the terminus), the more distorted time and space become.
I was thinking about the continents of Toril being more stable points. Zakhara's echo would be the root, with elemental spirits (genies), then it would branch out. In the Eastern Realms the Spiritworld, then in the western parts with European mythology would be fey, in Chessenta Mount Olympus would be like an earth node, connected to the fey realm, then Arborea in the Chondathan parts and Alfheim in the Northmen realms. The oceans would have watery parts like Aquallor, but mostly they'd be distorted, the Ethereal Maelstrom or the Ethereal Sea mentioned in Beyond Countless Doorways, or the Ghost Sea with whale spirits.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which makes me wonder just how much Xendrik is out of phase with the Prime material (since it acts a lot like the feywild). Or does Eberron's system actually lie outside of the prime Material, maybe even within the Feywild? (it is rather odd compared to all other D&D worlds)
But that's a train of thought for another thread... or even another site.
Post about X'endrik, it won't bother me, the place is ideal south of Katashaka. It fits the story about elves and giants (ruins in Arvandor, Mithardir), and Qabalrin necromancers connected to Kiaransalee and Ilythiir. The Dreaming Dark also in the ethereal, only I don't associate jungles with fey, but that could be from the giant's war with the dragons and serpents. |
Edited by - Quale on 21 Oct 2010 12:09:00 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 11:43:13
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| This is all Greek to me, so sorry I cant think of much help to give; this is one of the threads that really show me how out of the loop I am where newer games and supplements are concerned |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 12:07:54
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any source that has interesting fey stuff, not necessarily from RPGs
I wonder about Myth Drannor being multidimensional, what worlds would it include? I imagine after the Fall, the elves from the other side wouldn't want anything with the Coronal's dream
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 12:53:08
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The Last Mythal series mention Myth Drannor and its major portal station the Waymeet, which houses thousends of portals. As sun and moon elves designed it, it might have several links to Feyrealms; perhaps some real estate splinter Feywild areas housing manors or minor castles, some transcendental meditation pools, immense ancient mushroom woods and other minor feylike planar realms.
I like the idea of weakened planar barriers and anchor points. I'd add that certain objects (mirrors, reflecting pools), weather conditions or (cyclic) symbols with feylike qualities can pull in feywild planes toward the prime. Circles of Menhir stones, feycircles of mushrooms, layers of snow, dust devils and tornados, misty conditions or heavy rainfall can all break down barriers or pull in feywild places.
Other mysterious phenomena can permanently blanket an area onto the Feywild, becoming a wilder more base and feylike form of the prime material. The large amounts of heavy magic released during the Spellplague might have permanently anchored a whole newly formed Feywild on the nearby planar composition of the FR, mirroring the geographic of the Plaguechanged lands almost exactly and loosely resembling the North which was protected by mythallike stable magic energies (and possibly leylines). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 15:58:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
The Last Mythal series mention Myth Drannor and its major portal station the Waymeet, which houses thousends of portals. As sun and moon elves designed it, it might have several links to Feyrealms; perhaps some real estate splinter Feywild areas housing manors or minor castles, some transcendental meditation pools, immense ancient mushroom woods and other minor feylike planar realms.
Thanks, Waymeet slipped my mind, I don't associate transcendental meditation pools with fey cause they are creatures of whim, but that be perfect for Myth Ondath. There is a place called Fungal Forest in the Faeries book, could be the fey echo of Araumycos. Waymeet connected everywhere.
I think Waymeet is in the Outlands (tough Volo's words are unreliable), they are full fey-like stuff I want to move in this realm, the celtic lands, the norns, the dwarven mountain, wonderhome, even the kamerel. There's is Nexus too in Beyond Countless Doorways.
Multidimensional Myth Drannor is an intriguing idea, imagine running from the fiends, only to end up in a more twisted unseelie city.
Got me thinking about Evermeet, the other side of Evermeet are probably ruins, possibly of Tintageer, in the Spellplague they switched sides.
And Sildeyuir would be like an island in the ethereal sea, being a demiplane.
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I like the idea of weakened planar barriers and anchor points. I'd add that certain objects (mirrors, reflecting pools), weather conditions or (cyclic) symbols with feylike qualities can pull in feywild planes toward the prime. Circles of Menhir stones, feycircles of mushrooms, layers of snow, dust devils and tornados, misty conditions or heavy rainfall can all break down barriers or pull in feywild places.
yea, that reminds me to check for all the stone circles sites scattered around
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Other mysterious phenomena can permanently blanket an area onto the Feywild, becoming a wilder more base and feylike form of the prime material. The large amounts of heavy magic released during the Spellplague might have permanently anchored a whole newly formed Feywild on the nearby planar composition of the FR, mirroring the geographic of the Plaguechanged lands almost exactly and loosely resembling the North which was protected by mythallike stable magic energies (and possibly leylines).
all that raw magic must have drawn them, or maybe they naturally reacted to heal the world in balance to the aberrations |
Edited by - Quale on 21 Oct 2010 15:59:24 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 17:03:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
The Dreaming Dark also in the ethereal, only I don't associate jungles with fey, but that could be from the giant's war with the dragons and serpents.
Think Yaksha for 'Jungle Fey'.
Fey come in as many sizes, shapes, and colors, and live in as many different climes as all the humanoids and demi-humans combined.
I like the idea that 'Earth' grounds parts of the faerie realm. The idea that portions adjacent to continents are far more stable then those parts adjacent to the fluid seas is just fantastic. It also fits with my conjecture about Earthnodes and the fey (which we seem to be on the same page with), and how Faerzress are actually corrupted Earth Nodes (corrupted by the wave of dark Energy released by the black Diamond).
I still think Faerie is just a region within the Feywild - it makes more sense that way (IMHO). In that way, the Feywild always existed (perhaps as the 'daydream' portion of the plane of dreams?), and the Fey/Le'Shay merely created a demiplane within it (and in my homebrew I have used Danu sacrificing herself to accomplish this - Danu IS Faerie). This alleviates the whole lore conundrum of 'which came first?' between the fey and the place they live - a situation created by FR lore that says the Fey were a creator race. Ergo we can have a more universal concept of the fey (the Feywild), and at the same time keep our FR-specific lore about them intact (Faerie).
Thinking more on this, I never really gave much thought to Faerie as a demiplane beyond just assuming it was one (soon after the release of the Ravenloft setting, due to the similar behavior of both planes). So if we assume Faerie is a semi-stable demiplane within the truly chaotic Feywild, then we also get the bonus of the 'Domains' lore from Ravenloft as well - all those realms you mentioned Quale become separate domains within the demi-plane (and their rulers become 'Domain Lords', akin to Ravenloft's 'Dark Lords', with all the same sort of powers).
Which makes me now re-think Queen Amluiral and Evermeet. If Evermeet truly was an 'echo' of lost Tintageer pulled into the Prime, then that semi-fey realm may have still behaved in a faerie-like fashion, and Queen Amluiral was it's 'Domain Lord' (thus explaining her incredible Evermeet-specific powers, including closing its borders!)
So Evermeet was always part of Faerie - it was artificially anchored to the Prime by arcane magic, and those bounds shattered when the weave collapsed. The 'echo' is now on Toril, rather in the feywild, the way it should have been all along (imagine an object switching places with it own shadow - that's what the sundering ritual did). Because of the chaotic nature of time in the Feywild, the spell was warped and we wind-up with a time-distortion in regards to how the spell manifested in Faerūn.
Hmmmm... which means the spell probably went back to the corresponding moment in time when the Fey first fled Toril and Tintageer was founded, which shoehorns beautifully with my conjecture regarding the relationship between the fey and the Eladrin, and the War of Light & Darkness. In my HB, the war was set-off by the Affair of the Black Diamond, so the Fey left Toril when the world was Sundered (THUS, only one sundering, NOT two for Abeir-Toril).
And as a final note, unrelated but I found it interesting in its coincidentalness: I always forget how to spell 'Faerzress', and so I check words sometimes by typing them into Google search, which I did a few minutes ago. I miss-typed it as 'Faersrezz', and I got no result, but it offerred the word 'Fairies' as an alternate.
Talk about serendipitous! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Oct 2010 17:11:04 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 18:56:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
any source that has interesting fey stuff, not necessarily from RPGs
I wonder about Myth Drannor being multidimensional, what worlds would it include? I imagine after the Fall, the elves from the other side wouldn't want anything with the Coronal's dream
Brainstorming again.
I dont see the city so much as including various worlds as it being a part of many worlds. Again the mirror thought. The city would be the tie between magic and reality. The city of knowledge and life. Each world has one and without it there is chaos. Think Camelot, Moorcocks Sky City (and other parts of the Corum books), Elronds home, various dying city's in Dunsanys stories and Ashton Smith etc together with ideas of the Seven Golden City's, Atlantis, El Dorado and the Faerie Queens court. Lankhmar could be an example of a place where the ties have been more or less severed although the city still lives, slowly rotting. Each world and culture will in some way shape its myths after their dreams, but it will always be a place where intellects and bodies meet, a place that in some ways mirrors the creative early days of Gods. If a city in one world is destroyed then balance will be destroyed and the world will head towards chaos (slowly or fast, it depends on the situation). Alustriels work in Silverymoon is therefore an attempt at reforming the image of Myth-Drannor in the Realms again. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 21 Oct 2010 19:03:18 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 23:52:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Think Yaksha for 'Jungle Fey'.
Fey come in as many sizes, shapes, and colors, and live in as many different climes as all the humanoids and demi-humans combined.
Nothing canon, I just use the term fey for creatures from western mythologies, following the story from Tall Tales where fey refused to take sides in the immortal war, they are godless now for a change. In the Eastern Realms afaik all spirits are put into some divine hierarchy, similarly to the genies, related yet separated from the fey, yakshas seem in some other group, where are rakshasas etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
and how Faerzress are actually corrupted Earth Nodes (corrupted by the wave of dark Energy released by the black Diamond).
agree
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In that way, the Feywild always existed (perhaps as the 'daydream' portion of the plane of dreams?), and the Fey/Le'Shay merely created a demiplane within it (and in my homebrew I have used Danu sacrificing herself to accomplish this - Danu IS Faerie).
In my cosmology dream is the underlying medium, behind the astral and the ethereal, kind of buddhist, fey would that state of mind when you just wake up, the most creative. And Danu, Titania, the Earthmother, whatever her name faded into and merged into Chauntea during the anchoring and sundering. Their fates were woven into one.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thinking more on this, I never really gave much thought to Faerie as a demiplane beyond just assuming it was one (soon after the release of the Ravenloft setting, due to the similar behavior of both planes). So if we assume Faerie is a semi-stable demiplane within the truly chaotic Feywild, then we also get the bonus of the 'Domains' lore from Ravenloft as well - all those realms you mentioned Quale become separate domains within the demi-plane (and their rulers become 'Domain Lords', akin to Ravenloft's 'Dark Lords', with all the same sort of powers).
that would work, and the archfey would be more open
tough my intent with this thread is kind of the opposite, to get rid of the redundant parts and use the best ideas, personally I don't need five summer queens and ten lords of the wild hunt
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which makes me now re-think Queen Amluiral and Evermeet. If Evermeet truly was an 'echo' of lost Tintageer pulled into the Prime, then that semi-fey realm may have still behaved in a faerie-like fashion, and Queen Amluiral was it's 'Domain Lord' (thus explaining her incredible Evermeet-specific powers, including closing its borders!)
that's why her lifespan shortens every time she leaves Evermeet
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So Evermeet was always part of Faerie - it was artificially anchored to the Prime by arcane magic, and those bounds shattered when the weave collapsed. The 'echo' is now on Toril, rather in the feywild, the way it should have been all along (imagine an object switching places with it own shadow - that's what the sundering ritual did). Because of the chaotic nature of time in the Feywild, the spell was warped and we wind-up with a time-distortion in regards to how the spell manifested in Faerūn.
exactly, still not sure on the Tintageer part
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... which means the spell probably went back to the corresponding moment in time when the Fey first fled Toril and Tintageer was founded, which shoehorns beautifully with my conjecture regarding the relationship between the fey and the Eladrin, and the War of Light & Darkness. In my HB, the war was set-off by the Affair of the Black Diamond, so the Fey left Toril when the world was Sundered (THUS, only one sundering, NOT two for Abeir-Toril).
how did you connect them, I imagined dark fey rebelling against Shar, by being born from her, nothing with the Black Diamond, the corruption happening a few billion years later lol
involves Lurue? |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2010 : 23:59:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Brainstorming again.
I dont see the city so much as including various worlds as it being a part of many worlds. Again the mirror thought. The city would be the tie between magic and reality. The city of knowledge and life. Each world has one and without it there is chaos. Think Camelot, Moorcocks Sky City (and other parts of the Corum books), Elronds home, various dying city's in Dunsanys stories and Ashton Smith etc together with ideas of the Seven Golden City's, Atlantis, El Dorado and the Faerie Queens court. Lankhmar could be an example of a place where the ties have been more or less severed although the city still lives, slowly rotting. Each world and culture will in some way shape its myths after their dreams, but it will always be a place where intellects and bodies meet, a place that in some ways mirrors the creative early days of Gods. If a city in one world is destroyed then balance will be destroyed and the world will head towards chaos (slowly or fast, it depends on the situation). Alustriels work in Silverymoon is therefore an attempt at reforming the image of Myth-Drannor in the Realms again.
I see, sort of what happened with Rhymanthiin only opened to all, there are quite many such places in fantasy, the idea loses a bit of its original appeal |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 00:08:48
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| Just stepping in to say I like this scroll. Not wise enough to add anything; just learning. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 03:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Nothing canon, I just use the term fey for creatures from western mythologies, following the story from Tall Tales where fey refused to take sides in the immortal war, they are godless now for a change.
Interesting - I hadn't recalled that from Tall Tales (I'm praying I'll be back near my sources tomorrow).
As I'm sure you know by now, I lump all small, nature spirits into the 'fey' category. The Le'Shay are to the Fey what the Eladrin are to Elves - they are the aristocracy. The various names we know them by worldwide are just culture-specific terms, not actually different creatures. Interestingly, some Wiccans refer to Faeries as 'Elementals' (once again, 'nature spirits').
I haven't worked-in the connection between the Dgen (genies and related beings) and the Fey, but I know there is one. I need to get home and work on my cosmological 'family tree'. Fey are not connected to the pantheons in any way, except in as much as they take care of the world and maintain balance.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In my cosmology dream is the underlying medium, behind the astral and the ethereal, kind of buddhist, fey would that state of mind when you just wake up, the most creative. And Danu, Titania, the Earthmother, whatever her name faded into and merged into Chauntea during the anchoring and sundering. Their fates were woven into one.
VERY similar to my take - we are on the same page. My concept of 'daydreams' is just like yours - it is the realm of 'fanciful thoughts', wherein Imagination lies. What I used to call 'Fantasia' 4e named the Feywild.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
that would work, and the archfey would be more open
tough my intent with this thread is kind of the opposite, to get rid of the redundant parts and use the best ideas, personally I don't need five summer queens and ten lords of the wild hunt
Not necessarily - it is more like what Jorkens was saying: There is only one 'summer queen', and one 'Winter queen', one Wild Huntsman, One Harvest Lord, etc... What we have in each sphere is cultural-specifc manifestations of these beings. Their followers can leave Faerie (for a short time and not loose their natural abilities), and they visit with prime Material fey, and vice-versa, so the tales of their arch-types gets spread to all the worlds, and eventually pass to humans (after much distortion). This mortal 'belief' creates sphere-specific manifestations of each of the archtypes. This can be something that occurs as a natural process of the universe, or it could be the archtypes send Manifestaions (self-aware Avatars) to each of the worlds wherein they are receiving elan (worship-juice) from. I wouldn't even bother defining that any further - its probably a little of both.
Then we wind up with the situation of an archtype like Malar hunting-down what he perceives as 'lesser' representations of himself (when he himself might just be one of those 'lesser' echoes of the archtype).
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
That's why her lifespan shortens every time she leaves Evermeet.
Precisely - its only because her domain has been pulled into the Prime Material that she is able to leave at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
still not sure on the Tintageer part.
Understood - I am only going with that because it s a popular theory and seems to be alluded to in that GHotR vinget. In my Homebrew, Tintageer would have been founded (by Eladrin) some time after the Fey fled Toril, and probably at around the same time the (Sylvan) Elves left the Feywild to settle on Toril. That would put a few thousand years between the two events (plenty of time for the Fey to settle-in to their new Faerie home).
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
How did you connect them, I imagined dark fey rebelling against Shar, by being born from her, nothing with the Black Diamond, the corruption happening a few billion years later.
involves Lurue?
Yes, I used Lurue.
What I wrote about a week ago was several pages long, and it unfortunately got completely erased (the goddess of mysteries strikes again!) As I wrote I had several epiphanies, and managed to weave-together all of the separate cataclysmic events into one uber-RSE. It was pretty amazing, if I do say so myself - after I wrote it I was like "Just wow" (almost as if it wrote itself and I was just the tool). I went to save a copy before posting it and wound up erasing it instead 
War of Light & Darkness, the Dawn Cataclysm and tripatriate sun, the Black Diamond Affair, retreat of the Fey and creation of Faerie, The Sundering of the World, and the destruction of Tintageer and the creation Evermeet.
Lurue is in it, A'tar (Aumanator) is in it, Jergal is in it, the Earthmother is in it, the creation of Mystra and the weave, the Shadoweave and Mask - I covered it all in one story laid-out as a series of unfortunate events.
I hope I remember it all when I re-write it. I think you guys are really going to love the mythological feel of it (especially regarding Jergal's deal with Ao and the Tears of Selūne).
It all started when Shar tried to poison the world. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 12:02:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As I'm sure you know by now, I lump all small, nature spirits into the 'fey' category. The Le'Shay are to the Fey what the Eladrin are to Elves - they are the aristocracy. The various names we know them by worldwide are just culture-specific terms, not actually different creatures. Interestingly, some Wiccans refer to Faeries as 'Elementals' (once again, 'nature spirits').
leShay, at least the weird name, is a part of canon that I ignore, preferring leshi from slavic mythology, maybe sidhe or sith, the Faeries book calls them faeorin, but that's not much better, Birthright had the best names. And I see no difference between fey, eladrin, elves, different names for the same group, only elves are better adapted to the Prime, spend more time there. If try to stick to canon, your solution is simple and elegant.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I haven't worked-in the connection between the Dgen (genies and related beings) and the Fey, but I know there is one. I need to get home and work on my cosmological 'family tree'. Fey are not connected to the pantheons in any way, except in as much as they take care of the world and maintain balance.
the genies are spirits of elemental magic, and fey a sort of spirits of natural earthly forces, I don't know about any other differences except cultural, maybe the difference is in origin, fey could be created from the mortal subconscious or primitive emotions for natural phenomenons in times before gods, and genies from willful, conscious acts, such as arcanist's conjurings ?!
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This mortal 'belief' creates sphere-specific manifestations of each of the archtypes. This can be something that occurs as a natural process of the universe, or it could be the archtypes send Manifestaions (self-aware Avatars) to each of the worlds wherein they are receiving elan (worship-juice) from.
Then we wind up with the situation of an archtype like Malar hunting-down what he perceives as 'lesser' representations of himself (when he himself might just be one of those 'lesser' echoes of the archtype).
That would work and could explain all the inconsistencies. Except for my personal game it's too complicated. I'm thinking the triple aspected Earthmother archetype, similar to Angharradh or in the Celtic myth, for spring, summer and autumn, the rest being just local names. For the Hunter archetype just two, one is a bit civilized, sometimes turning into a lycanthropic beast.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I hope I remember it all when I re-write it. I think you guys are really going to love the mythological feel of it (especially regarding Jergal's deal with Ao and the Tears of Selūne).
It all started when Shar tried to poison the world.
Jergal deal? when Ao is mentioned my enthusiasm goes away lol
would Shar want to poison the world, or Moander? I figure there's two types of absolute evil, ones that want complete destruction and the others that want endless suffering. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 13:44:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Brainstorming again.
I dont see the city so much as including various worlds as it being a part of many worlds. Again the mirror thought. The city would be the tie between magic and reality. The city of knowledge and life. Each world has one and without it there is chaos. Think Camelot, Moorcocks Sky City (and other parts of the Corum books), Elronds home, various dying city's in Dunsanys stories and Ashton Smith etc together with ideas of the Seven Golden City's, Atlantis, El Dorado and the Faerie Queens court. Lankhmar could be an example of a place where the ties have been more or less severed although the city still lives, slowly rotting. Each world and culture will in some way shape its myths after their dreams, but it will always be a place where intellects and bodies meet, a place that in some ways mirrors the creative early days of Gods. If a city in one world is destroyed then balance will be destroyed and the world will head towards chaos (slowly or fast, it depends on the situation). Alustriels work in Silverymoon is therefore an attempt at reforming the image of Myth-Drannor in the Realms again.
I see, sort of what happened with Rhymanthiin only opened to all, there are quite many such places in fantasy, the idea loses a bit of its original appeal
The problem is that there is a ruined Myth Drannor in the Realms, hence it has to have a physical presence. And if the physical city was centre of reality of a sort, with all the threads meeting it becomes something more like Sigil. I thought about the city as a sort of image of the "first city" or something like that ( or the urbanized version of the Eternal Champion in a way)works with the old idea that the Realms are tied to various other worlds and that the Earths stories are memories of such a world. It can be destroyed, but as with the world tree it is more the image than the true city that is destroyed.
What were your thoughts on the city where the dimensions were concerned? |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 15:08:12
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only the fey dimension, where the elitist elves escaped after the fall and possibly another even darker part, linked to the lower planes and the unseelie realms, a place where would fey'ri come from or from where the Trio Nefarious were originally summoned
then maybe a tree-house, that exists in all realities that Sigil connects to, for purposes of gathering knowledge about them, kind of like Mieville's City and the City where two cities coexist in the same place-time, only the tree would have infinite potential, ''seeing'' its other realities would be difficult, sometimes there would be incursions from the other side, e.g. one version of the tree would be the Pnakotic library, that's were the phaerimm come from
image of Sigil where every type of creature imaginable walks the streets makes my stomach turn |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 16:20:59
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I haven't actually read this entire thread, just Quale's initial query and the first few responses. They made me think of this: What if the changing of seasons are reflected in Faerie with the Fey Court removing to a different palace? So that the 'Summer Palace' Titania is a palace which exists in perpetual summer, the 'Winter Palace' is cloaked in perpetual snow, etc. Maybe the act of the Court moving palace to palace is the impetus which actually causes the seasons to change, rather than merely reflecting those changes? Now what if, for some reason, Titania refuses to leave her Winter Palace? Maybe she's been spurned by a lover, and feels that the snows and darkness befit her more, or maybe she's being held prisoner there by Auril/the Queen of Air and Darkness?
Just a thought that came to me, apropos of nothing. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 17:23:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
leShay, at least the weird name, is a part of canon that I ignore, preferring leshi from slavic mythology, maybe sidhe or sith, the Faeries book calls them faeorin, but that's not much better, Birthright had the best names. And I see no difference between fey, eladrin, elves, different names for the same group, only elves are better adapted to the Prime, spend more time there. If try to stick to canon, your solution is simple and elegant.
In my own lore I use Shee instead of Le'Shay (that simply becomes a Realms-specific term); the Seelie spell it Sidhe, and the Unseelie spell it Sith, but it is pronouncd the same (the fey can tell the difference though - it has to do with inflection and intent).
I have to look closer at Birthright's lore - I never cared for the setting simply because I didn't consider it D&D, but after a little research I realized a lot of it is not too shabby (the stuff about the Shadoworld blows away FR's rather inadequate shadow lore).
A lot of Fey lore (including Elves) I simply chalk-up to humans not really understanding the situation at all. What they perceive as all different creatures is really just one race that has splintered into many different-looking subtypes. Human's shapes are stable (for the most part), but true Fey can change their appearance, hence the wildly disparate appearances of them. Fey loose this ability after a short time on the Prime, which is why most of them settle near terminus points (where the veil between the worlds is thinnest). Fey that have lived too long in the Prime (MANY generations) become 'fixed' in their appearance.
Eladrin become the Immortal children of the Fey - the first physical offspring born to them after they fled Toril for Faerie. Its actually a lot more complicated then that, but I will wait until I write a piece about the Fey. The Sylvan (green Elves) are the children of the Eladrin. They are not immortal but still live a long time. These conditions all exist within the Feywild only, and it changes when they spend time in the prime. Basically, the Eladrin become an 'echo' of the original Sidhe (since you don't like Le'Shay ), because they lost their connection to Toril's 'Earthforce' (or whatever you want to name it), and the Elves become an echo of them. There really isn't that much difference between Elves and Eladrin - its more of a 'birthright' thing (the Eladrin being considered something akin to nobility).
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
the genies are spirits of elemental magic, and fey a sort of spirits of natural earthly forces, I don't know about any other differences except cultural, maybe the difference is in origin, fey could be created from the mortal subconscious or primitive emotions for natural phenomenons in times before gods, and genies from willful, conscious acts, such as arcanist's conjurings ?!
Thinking more on this since yesterday, I think the Fey are the prime's version of Dgen. The Le'Shay become the composite element (which means that the Le'Shay who choose to remain linked to the Prime became Janni). Still toying with that one.
I have developed my cosmological model further, and now have the Elemental Malstrom being shaped into five Material planes - the normal four elemental ones and the Prime. I was having a bit of a hard time shoe-horning my HB Ordials into the greater scheme of things (Planescape having so well defined the universe), but I think I got it finally. The Material Plane consist of five planes, and it is ruled by the Ordials (Elemental Lords). Those in charge of the Prime (a place where the other four blend together) are the Prime Ordials (Primordials). So Kossuth becomes a Fire Ordial, Istishia a Water Ordial, etc... everything seems to work now (until I notice a new problem LOL). The natural state of the Ordial (material) plane is chaotic soup, and 'Order' (hence the name Ordials) was enforced upon the Malstrom, and it was turned into the Elemental planes that we have always known. After the Spellplague and various other cosmic events, the 'Order' was shattered and the Material plane was once-again reduced to a state of chaos (its natural condition). Only the Prime was kept intact (at great cost - I'll get to that). 
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
That would work and could explain all the inconsistencies. Except for my personal game it's too complicated. I'm thinking the triple aspected Earthmother archetype, similar to Angharradh or in the Celtic myth, for spring, summer and autumn, the rest being just local names. For the Hunter archetype just two, one is a bit civilized, sometimes turning into a lycanthropic beast.
Still working on the Herne/Malar thing - I think I have a bead on it.
As for the rest, you and everyone else running a setting doesn't have to bother with any of that. For any one world, there only is one of each of those fey Archtypes (although various cultures could view them radically different). The one your PCs will deal with will be the one YOU choose - that becomes the correct reality for your world-specific PCs. If, for some strange reason, you party consisted of people from different worlds (which shouldn't happen unless you are running Planescape), each person will see what they expect to see (for such is the nature of extra-planer beings).
I only create this over-cosmology because I have run more then one official world, and like to still think of everything as being connected. Outside of these Cosmology-theory conversations, it really doesn't affect any one campaign world - these are 'deeper secrets' (Invisible Lore) of the Cosmos that mortals aren't privy to. What you tell your players is the absolute truth... in regards to their specific reality.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Jergal deal? when Ao is mentioned my enthusiasm goes away lol
would Shar want to poison the world, or Moander? I figure there's two types of absolute evil, ones that want complete destruction and the others that want endless suffering.
First off, I got rid of Ao. 
He was canon, so he has to have a cameo, but he is gone now. 4e helped me axe him. It was epic, though. 
As for Shar... well... there is no proof. Just accusations thrown around, which incensed her to kill her accuser. No one really knows who poisoned her mother, but she was the prime suspect. Perhaps, somewhere, some even darker being sits and chuckles... and bides it's time.
Of course the conflict was brewing for some time before the Black Diamond poisoned the World - Selūne was always 'Daddy's girl', the way he smiled upon her constantly. But Shar was the daughter of The Night... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Oct 2010 17:42:32 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 22:51:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
I haven't actually read this entire thread, just Quale's initial query and the first few responses. They made me think of this: What if the changing of seasons are reflected in Faerie with the Fey Court removing to a different palace? So that the 'Summer Palace' Titania is a palace which exists in perpetual summer, the 'Winter Palace' is cloaked in perpetual snow, etc. Maybe the act of the Court moving palace to palace is the impetus which actually causes the seasons to change, rather than merely reflecting those changes? Now what if, for some reason, Titania refuses to leave her Winter Palace? Maybe she's been spurned by a lover, and feels that the snows and darkness befit her more, or maybe she's being held prisoner there by Auril/the Queen of Air and Darkness?
Just a thought that came to me, apropos of nothing.
well in my cosmology such planes reflect the Prime and its natural processes, but if you want you could turn it the other way around, or make the Prime a buffer zone between the Feywild and Shadowfel, first to feel the effects of their conflict. Titania reuniting with her sister would end in a great flood or in another ice age, I remember one of the Dresden novels has a similar story. Great idea with the palaces, might work with the triple spring-summer-autumn Earthmother archetype I imagines. The spring realm would be called Cradle of Life (what Abeir-Toril means) ... |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2010 : 23:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I have to look closer at Birthright's lore - I never cared for the setting simply because I didn't consider it D&D, but after a little research I realized a lot of it is not too shabby (the stuff about the Shadoworld blows away FR's rather inadequate shadow lore).
it has parts worth stealing, at first I lost interest when I read about their ''Sauron'', but the bloodlines idea is useful, halflings are interesting, better than halflings interloped with genies
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Human's shapes are stable (for the most part), but true Fey can change their appearance, hence the wildly disparate appearances of them. Fey loose this ability after a short time on the Prime, which is why most of them settle near terminus points (where the veil between the worlds is thinnest). Fey that have lived too long in the Prime (MANY generations) become 'fixed' in their appearance.
agreed, terminus is a good idea, like in Roman mythology
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Basically, the Eladrin become an 'echo' of the original Sidhe (since you don't like Le'Shay ), because they lost their connection to Toril's 'Earthforce' (or whatever you want to name it), and the Elves become an echo of them. There really isn't that much difference between Elves and Eladrin - its more of a 'birthright' thing (the Eladrin being considered something akin to nobility).
right, 4e change of eladrin into fey was a good thing, tough imo the Planescape version of them (not canon, written by fans) is preferable to the high elves theme they got now, and the new art looks gay
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
Thinking more on this since yesterday, I think the Fey are the prime's version of Dgen. The Le'Shay become the composite element (which means that the Le'Shay who choose to remain linked to the Prime became Janni). Still toying with that one.
what's a Dgen, a different spelling, aren't they those familiars from Zakhara? I thought about Janni as well, cause they are balanced like fey
kind of like the idea now that the genies were created/conjured from mortal elemental magic and alchemy, to differentiate from the fey
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
I have developed my cosmological model further, and now have the Elemental Malstrom being shaped into five Material planes - the normal four elemental ones and the Prime. I was having a bit of a hard time shoe-horning my HB Ordials into the greater scheme of things (Planescape having so well defined the universe), but I think I got it finally. The Material Plane consist of five planes, and it is ruled by the Ordials (Elemental Lords). Those in charge of the Prime (a place where the other four blend together) are the Prime Ordials (Primordials). So Kossuth becomes a Fire Ordial, Istishia a Water Ordial, etc... everything seems to work now (until I notice a new problem LOL). The natural state of the Ordial (material) plane is chaotic soup, and 'Order' (hence the name Ordials) was enforced upon the Malstrom, and it was turned into the Elemental planes that we have always known. After the Spellplague and various other cosmic events, the 'Order' was shattered and the Material plane was once-again reduced to a state of chaos (its natural condition). Only the Prime was kept intact (at great cost - I'll get to that).
where do the ordials come from? I had four races instead, vaati, then homebrew helions, they split after conquering Celestia and Baator into archons and devils, and two unnamed ones, one possibly be the dharum suhn (PS MC III) and the Sleeping Ones in Ice (mentioned in Inner Planes)
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
Still working on the Herne/Malar thing - I think I have a bead on it.
I've simplified all the hunter powers into one, I don't care about Solonor, his alignment is neutral with portfolios of wilds, natural selection, speed, scent, predators, hunt, archery, traps, talking beasts, scent, instinct, partially there's Herne in there, then when the cosmic moon turns weird he becomes Malar, add portfolios of nightmares (undecided), rage, bloodlust, lycanthropy, savageness, cannibalism.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkusTay
...it really doesn't affect any one campaign world - these are 'deeper secrets' (Invisible Lore) of the Cosmos that mortals aren't privy to. What you tell your players is the absolute truth... in regards to their specific reality.
I found when the things are cleared out at the top that it's much easier to zoom in on the world and plan a campaign plot. Cosmological and other cultural hombrew changes in the end saved me a lot of time. We had a DM who planned everything, wrote whole notebooks, I like just the opposite and give to the pcs a lot more freedom by adapting.
quote:
Originally posted by MT
As for Shar... well... there is no proof. Just accusations thrown around, which incensed her to kill her accuser. No one really knows who poisoned her mother, but she was the prime suspect. Perhaps, somewhere, some even darker being sits and chuckles... and bides it's time.
Of course the conflict was brewing for some time before the Black Diamond poisoned the World - Selūne was always 'Daddy's girl', the way he smiled upon her constantly. But Shar was the daughter of The Night...
what a mystery
do you use the Dark god from the story, Tharizdun? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 02:03:13
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Rather then do the time-consuming 'quotey' thing, I'll just use the format we had in the Utter East thread:
By Right of Birth
Haven't looked into their Halfings yet - just the stuff concerning the Fey, Fomorians, and the Shadoworld (which compliments the lore from 3eOA, BTW) That world seems to work a lot like a demi-plane as well - we have domain lords there, so it may be a good source for a lot of our fey material. I'll have to check out their halflings too - thanks.
Of Elves & Fey
I don't adhere to canon, so much as I bend it and twist it to my own ends. This is why my newest work is written in a sort-of 'mythology' style (re-reading Bulfinch's Mythology ATM - I have limited reading material here at the Ex's house - and it has inspired me). So the story of the Eladrin is a little of Planescape, and a little of FR/core, and a little homebrew all mixed together (the HB is the 'glue' that holds the canon bits in-place). This is why I have taken to use the word 'Elf' or 'Elves' as an umbrella-term to mean all types of noble fey, and I now use 'Sylvani' as the civilization-eschewing group we know as green elves or just plain 'Elf' in 4e. So Eladrin are Elves, just a 'superior' breed, and the Shee {La'Shay) would also be considered Elves, although they are referred to thusly only on some worlds. Think of it as the difference between Royal, Noble, and common social classes (except in the case of magical creatures, there are actual physical differences from one caste to another).
I dream of Genie
The term 'Dgen' was coined by Steven Schend in the Lands of Intrigue material. He was referring to royal Djinn and their entourages. This makes me think that dgen is another 'umbrella term' for Djinn and their elemental kin, which would include Genasi and Gen (those familiar-like Djinni). I now take this a step further and have these beings be the powerful servants (exarchs?) of the Elemental Lords (which I re-named Ordials - I'll get to that). Every plane has its 'gods', and its 'powerful servants' (the prime has demi-gods, or 'saints' if you prefer).
Out of Order
The Ordials is a term I came up with awhile back, soon after 4e was released, because I didn't like the confusion regarding all the not-gods (Primordials, Archfey, Elemental Lords, Beast Powers, etc). You may have guessed by now how much I like my 'Umbrella' terms (it keeps things easy to adapt to rules) - Ordial started out as a quasi-joke (the Prime Ordials), but have gradually grown into a great lore-marrying tool for me. They enforce 'the Order' upon the material planes, which revert to chaos if not kept in-check. Ergo, all of those other 'cosmic entities' I mentioned earlier fall into this one category - they are the caretakers of the Universe (and Ao is an Elder Ordial - a Spheric Gaurdian). Above this divine layer comes the Elder Gods (Old Ones, Lost Ones, Forgotten Gods, "Those who must not be named", whatever), which represent the actual forces of the universe (including your idea of demiurge, which I've added).
As a side benefit of this new Ordial category, I can now differentiate between the Elemental Lords, and the Primordials, because those who were barred from Toril were Prime Ordials - only those beings that were supposed to be caretakers of the Prime Material (and not one of the other four material (Elemental) Planes.
In other words, I have lumped the Prime Material and elemental planes into one uber-plane called the Material plane (which makes sense; material = the elements). In my model, there are four BASIC materials, and then their is the PRIME material - a composite of the other four. This allows for both western concept of the elements to work right along side the eastern (the fabled '5th element'). There is also a 6th psuedo-element: Void (the lack of any elements).
And the Beat goes On...
'Void' is the space created between the five material planes, and was referred to by some as phlogiston prior to the Spellplague. This non-material was destroyed when the elemental planes collapsed back together into the Malstrom (making old-school Spelljamming impossible now). The Mercane have adapted, however, and now build Planejammers that sail the ethereal seas (between the shadowfel, Material, and Feywild). The rules have changed a little bit, but just in regards to what plane is being used to travel, and spelljamming proceeds as before (So I've basically smooshed-together Planescape and Spelljammer).
Ao 'died' when he sacrificed himself to save Realmspace - nearly all the Elder Ordials (Over Gods) were destroyed keeping their respective Crystal Spheres from being absorbed back into the Elemental Chaos. (What they did was merge together and use their power to create a super-sphere to encapsulate all the others - they are the barrier that holds back the destuctive energies of the Malstrom).
So there you go - no more Ao in 4e, and a lore-driven reason for the change. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Oct 2010 02:32:01 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 12:43:12
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Halflings, I keep the Tolkien origins, all I'm saying better the Shadow World than genies. Maybe in Anadia the Feywild is almost dead, what happened in 4e Dark Sun
searching through Land of Intrigue pdf there's no Dgen
quick googling reveals, djinn, formed from the winds, also spelled as: Dgen, Dchin,Genie, Ginn, Jann, Jinn,Jinni, Djin, Jinnee or Jnun. Dgen is my favourite, Ginn, lol, spirits of alcohol magic
I like the idea of their social classes, tough it's a bit lawful, the nobles would be the arcane ''caste''
I wanted to merge PS and SJ, and the supersphere is fantastic
phlogiston or plasma is what remains from the protomatter the Phoenix (demiurge) spewed out in a big-bang-like event |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 16:28:53
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Right - the Elemental Malstrom is flled with all the elements and energies (and para and psuedo-elements as well), so pockets of 'phlogiston' could still exist within it.
Dgen I definately got from one of Schend's works - possibly the older one? What was that, Empires of the Sands? I really doubt its in the Calimshan book, but it might be - its right at the very beginning, in the section where we first find out the Djinn brought the halflings to Faerūn (and not necessarily from the Elemental planes - I have it where the Halflings were indigenous to Zakhara).
He obviously means the Djinn when he uses it, but it also seems to mean all their elemental servants as well, so I use it as an umbrella-term for the elemental beings (and I believe he answered a query of mine once, saying that Djinn (elemental outsiders) was too close to Djinni (specifically, the Air Elemental outsiders), so he came up with a slightly different term for the whole group to avoid confusion. No one else ever bothered to run with that nice fix.
I'm liking the Jann as Archfey that stayed being in the Prime when the rest fled to the Feywild.
I haven't gotten as far as figuring out where the Demons come in (or daemons for that matter). Daemons in Folklore were Middle-Eastern demons, so it stands to reason they have connections to the Dgen (which it appears 4e used).
What are Daemons ('loths) in 4e? Since the assumption in 4e is that "everything reverted back to its original state" - and I've been working with that assumption throughout - then whatever they are in 4e are what they started out and I have to work outward from there.
I'm also building a model for magic with all of this - Arcane energy is the power that holds the material planes together, so Arcane Magic becomes the concept of 'Basic (Elemental) Magic' - the manipulation of the primal forces of the material plane to receive material results. Ergo, this is the power-source Gods and Ordials (Primordials and elemental beings) tap into. In its raw, unfiltered form mortals cannot handle it.
Thus, 'Eldritch' magic becomes the power source of the 'Elder Gods' - it is the ancient, mystical energy that ties together the universe itself, and it is manifested in the Sublime Song (and the written form would be Runic magic). Wasn't there some sort of 'magic Language' in the Realms? That would be the spoken version (Which holds far more power when sung to the Music of the Spheres).
Not sure yet, but because of the more mystical connotations of Eldritch magic, I may tie it to psionics as well (Mind over matter). Basically the Universe is a song first sung by GOD, and others can join in the song and shape it to change the laws of the universe around them (with very limited range and limited duration). Only exceptional mortals can accomplish this (psionisists), but some forms of basic (Arcane) magic have emulated the effects (Words of Power and Bardic Magic). What a psionisist does is 'tune in' to the local 'music' and warps reality to his needs.
Not a big fan of psionics in fantasy, so I am trying to give it more of a mystic twist (like with Hindu religion and Yogi/Monks/Lamas). I've also managed to gain some new HB lore for this aspect of my setting, thanks to a Scooby Doo episode, of all things! (ideas come from the strangest places).
Note that I use the D&D energy-types that coincide with the elements - Earth/Acid, Air/Electricity, Water/Cold, and Fire/Heat, and so the 5th element - Alloy - corresponds to the Sonic energy type (so everything fits - the physical universe exists because of a 'divine song'). Ergo, keeping the four elements 'in balance' engenders 'life' (Wood), but using them in different proportions does not engender life (Metal), so all versions of the five-element magic systems become compatible. Think of it as 'Harmony' and 'Disharmony'.
The idea of separating Arcane and Eldritch magic I've had for a very long time, but I haven't really been able to refine the concept until after 4e came out. Strangely enough, all the changes to the cosmology allowed me to see a lot of things in a different light (like the fact that the universe is not static - it changes all the time).
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Oct 2010 20:04:22 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 19:35:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
only the fey dimension, where the elitist elves escaped after the fall and possibly another even darker part, linked to the lower planes and the unseelie realms, a place where would fey'ri come from or from where the Trio Nefarious were originally summoned
then maybe a tree-house, that exists in all realities that Sigil connects to, for purposes of gathering knowledge about them, kind of like Mieville's City and the City where two cities coexist in the same place-time, only the tree would have infinite potential, ''seeing'' its other realities would be difficult, sometimes there would be incursions from the other side, e.g. one version of the tree would be the Pnakotic library, that's were the phaerimm come from
image of Sigil where every type of creature imaginable walks the streets makes my stomach turn
So how do you see the fate of the Tree-House in the ruined version of Myth Drannor? Is it still found in the trees, invisible as its wooden frame was destroyed, controlled by Alhoon or guarded by fey creatures from beyond Faerun? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 20:50:43
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The Great Cosmic Treehouse! LOL! 
I'm sorry, I just keep picturing the KND Treehouse now.
There's a Lunar treehouse that would have worked better, but I couldn't find a pic of that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 21:48:38
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MT, I looked into Empires of the Shining Sea, the collective name is ''Djen'', they are equally the djinn, the jann, human, halflngs and a few marids that arrived in - 7800 DR. Interesting it says that on another world Calim and his people were enslaved to wizards.
In 4e daemons were thrown in together with other demons of the Abyss. Except raavastas, who are descended from arcanaloths (MotP), or described as elemental shapechangers (Demonomicon), in MotP they were exiled from Abyss for being schemers and are related to rakshasas. From what I've seen in 4e Demonomicon beings that were once 'loths originate from the Blood Rift (they used 3e FR cosmology for that), and were directly spawned from Tharizdun, or local elementals corrupted by Tharizdun. Other demons that were like tanar'ri descend from corrupted primordials like Demogorgon. Obyriths seem to have taken the place of baernaloths, baernaloths are now just viziers of Phraxus (they renamed Anthraxus, but forgot to rename Mydianchlarus).
That mystic type of psionics is the one we use, nothing futuristic about it, except in the future it will become a part of human destiny. I made psionics a forbidden art, unique to humans, a tool of their freedom, something that comes from inner self, that gods cannot have. Tough it all falls into one arcanist class, all types of magic, psionics, binding, pacts, divine power etc.
Thinking about this song and bardic magic, what if Talfir's shadow magic was more like Birthright's Shadoworld, not what it usually associated like shades, but of that ethereal realm of pure potential where things are sung into creation. Also explains their ability to see feyroads.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
So how do you see the fate of the Tree-House in the ruined version of Myth Drannor? Is it still found in the trees, invisible as its wooden frame was destroyed, controlled by Alhoon or guarded by fey creatures from beyond Faerun?
I see it just as another large tree, scarred and malformed, with remains of ruined dwellings. In no way standing out from its surroundings. Possibly with some poor and slow regenerative abilities if ever any serious damage comes to it. The Prime side would have subtle wards of magical and natural distraction scattered in nearby ''streets''. Fey would guard their own side, not caring about Myth Drannor, only there the tree can be actually destroyed, where it was seeded. The chances of two types of creatures meeting in the Myth Drannor side would be very small. E.g. for an aberration to access the fey side it would have to ''see'' like a fey mind does. Mind flayers could do it by devouring other creature's brain, but only for a short time before reverting to its own realm. Alhoon never, it would always end up in Shadowfel. A phaerimm incubated in a fey host, but it'd be too young. Sometimes beholders or fomorians could see multiple dimensions at once and try to set up themselves as local bosses.
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Going back to first post, I'm thinking maybe the Titania's realm moves in the middle of Toril's north temperate zone, being the most balanced and pleasant for life. It would start at Evermeet's echo in the winter, where would be the Court of Stars and Selune's angelic emissary, then travel by the Moonshaes, Greenfields, ending somewhere in the Cradlelands (Green Lands), or Murghom where Myrkul appeared. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2010 : 22:59:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
MT, I looked into Empires of the Shining Sea, the collective name is ''Djen'', they are equally the djinn, the jann, human, halflngs and a few marids that arrived in - 7800 DR. Interesting it says that on another world Calim and his people were enslaved to wizards.
Okay, I was misspelling it. 
Does it specifically say 'another world'? I had always assumed that was something that had happened in Zakhara. I don't like there being two unrelated 'genie' areas on Toril - it lacks cohesion. I will have to re-read that section when I get home. I can still make it work, but it might be easier to say the reverse is true (that Djen originated in the Shining South), since Zakharan history only goes back a little over a thousand years, and Calimshan's is MUCH older then that.
Still... it just seems so... disrespectful... to Al-Qadim to say everything started in Faerūn. I like that setting a lot, and don't care for it's main appeal to just be an afterthought in FR's lore.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
In 4e daemons were thrown in together with other demons of the Abyss. <snip>
Just as I suspected. Most of that is Greek to me - not very big on Planescape outside of the great wheel itself, and Arcanoloths were one of my least favorite aspects (not that it was bad, I just never saw the reason for them).
Tharizdun interests me - I have to read more about him. He may wind-up with a rather large role in my Torillian Mythology.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
That mystic type of psionics is the one we use, nothing futuristic about it, except in the future it will become a part of human destiny. I made psionics a forbidden art, unique to humans, a tool of their freedom, something that comes from inner self, that gods cannot have.
I'm going that way myself, making it seem more like 'the Force' (which is why I connect it to higher powers then those responsible for Arcane magic). D&D Psionics have always been one of my 'weak spots', and I really need to look into it more.
I have several reasons for separating magic into two 'tiers', and it just seems logical (to me) that normal (Arcane) magic is what people would practice if they didn't have a natural gift for manipulating reality (Note that Elminster has this talent, which is why he is so much more then just a mage). Psionisists are 'savants' when it comes to manipulating the forces around them, whereas magic is just a tool for the inept.
I lump meta-magical feats into this, along with things like epic magic - at that level Mages are starting to understand the forces behind the magic.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Thinking about this song and bardic magic, what if Talfir's shadow magic was more like Birthright's Shadoworld, not what it usually associated like shades, but of that ethereal realm of pure potential where things are sung into creation. Also explains their ability to see feyroads.
Thats all from Birthright? I really have to look deeper into that setting. I still find it extremely interesting that Birthright's world is called Aebrynis... sounds awfully familiar.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I see it just as another large tree, scarred and malformed, with remains of ruined dwellings. In no way standing out from its surroundings. Possibly with some poor and slow regenerative abilities if ever any serious damage comes to it. The Prime side would have subtle wards of magical and natural distraction scattered in nearby ''streets''. Fey would guard their own side, not caring about Myth Drannor, only there the tree can be actually destroyed, where it was seeded...<snip>
I really have to find a way of using all of this.
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Going back to first post, I'm thinking maybe the Titania's realm moves in the middle of Toril's north temperate zone, being the most balanced and pleasant for life. It would start at Evermeet's echo in the winter, where would be the Court of Stars and Selune's angelic emissary, then travel by the Moonshaes, Greenfields, ending somewhere in the Cradlelands (Green Lands), or Murghom where Myrkul appeared.
I like the Shadow-Fey area lining-up with the Old Empires, but I think maybe we should be thinking in terms of how Abeir-Toril is supposed to look. When the Fey left, the Sundering hadn't happened yet, ergo the center of Faerie should be somewhere in the northern part of the Trackless Sea (since that is where they eladrin appeared, and that was the coast that was torn-apart to create Evermeet). Evermeet should align with Tintageer on the other side (and since that island-city was not Faerie itself, but rather in Faerie, that works).
As for the Old Empires thing, if we take the idea that the Fey were original from the Eastern end of the proto-continent, then perhaps the old fey-homelands were centered somewhere around the Raurin (which REALLY works for me), and the outskirts of their rather large demesne would have been Murghōm on the west and the Larang valleys in the east. If the capital (Ladinion) was on the eastern fringe of their lands, then the Unseelie Court could align with the area I think was the site of the black Diamond affair (The Hanya Maut Wasteland). That still places Myrkul's homeland within the corrupted area (but not at 'ground zero').
I really need to get my arse home and access my maps - hard to picture all of this - I need to draw some racial regions on a map of Merrouroboros. It would be a lot easier to help you place the Faerie realms with their Torillian terminus-points. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Oct 2010 23:42:58 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 00:38:25
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About Djen
EoSS presents two theories, one is that they came from Elemental Air, the other that they arrived via time gate from Zakhara of 500 years ago.
Afaik, that was the time when the Loregiver disapeared in Al-Qadim, I think the caliph dynasty started then, I'm sure in Afyal at least it did
The other theory comes from the slave legends, it says ''other worlds they had walked'', probably these were planewalking wizards from Zakhara.
Arcanaloths, they do play a big role in lower planar politics, collecting info for the great experiment of evil, the Blood War would be poor without them manipulating the sides
Birthright, just the Shadoworld as place that combines the ethereal and shadow, the rest I made up. They don't have singing, but they do have seeming. Interesting, the Shadow Stone novel that introduced the Shadow Weave initially was written for Birthright. And Shar is called the Nightsinger.
I'm not satisfied with the travelling court, some other day. Tough I think both planes got sundered, and that the feywild does not look like Merrouroboros, maybe the other plane I use (called Serphala the Cosmic Helix, of the lost creator races) would still look like that. Decided use the name ''Cradle of Life'' for the Earthmother's realm, Abeir-Toril translated. |
Edited by - Quale on 24 Oct 2010 00:52:56 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 Oct 2010 : 16:35:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Great Cosmic Treehouse! LOL!
It should be a symbol of every kids dreams (until puberty was approaching of course), a tree house that lets you travel to other worlds? Seems like the perfect start of a story.
This reminds me, isn't there a tavern somewhere in a Volo guide that is a meeting place of gates and planar travellers? |
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Fey realms
