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Dinnin
Seeker
Australia
53 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 03:11:43
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hey guys, its been a while.
just wondering what you do when you realise that what you want out of a session doesnt happen?
i have so many ideas in my head as to what i want, some of them just cant be done with the rules that are in place but no one else i play knows the realms like i do. and dont do alot of stuff.
what would you guys do?
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"Use yer heads! A barnyard goose tastes better 'an a wild one cause it don't use its muscles. The same oughta hold true for a giant's brains!"
Bruenor Battlehammer |
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Seethyr
Master of Realmslore
USA
1239 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 04:33:22
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I don't know what advice to give you other than my own experience with similar situations on numerous occasions. I have always stuck it out as long as I could. This has been rewarding to me I'd say 50% of the time. Sometimes your sessions will go in a direction you did not expect, but end up loving anyway. Other times...meh!
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 10:50:43
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Yeah, there's so much good realmsy stuff that it can be hard to filter for the game table. I find it helpful to have two distinct and separate versions of the game and lore packet you're working with; one stripped down, battle ready version that exists for you and the players to tear through at the gaming table, and the other, personal 'pet' setting that only lives in your head. you'll never get everything you want out of a game session because it's a collective effort; not everyone understands or enjoys the realms or the game in general the same way you do, so the end product is always going to be an amalgam. Feed in as much lore and whatnot as you can, but don't force the issue, save it for your own minds eye theatre.
Case in point: I'm planning an informal sand-boxy type game to run through with my GF set in Thar and (later) Vaasa. I've come up with so much hard-core realms nerdity that it would be completely impossible for a relative noob to keep track of, so it's all stripped down to essential points that can be elaborated on as and when. I still have all the goodies I want in my head, and the player(s) get what they want when they want it.
That's largely for lore, at least. Mechanics are another kettle of fish for which I can only make the usual suggestions of DM fiat, handwavium and artistic licence, the viability of which depends on the attitude and style of the players, etc, etc, etc... |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 12:01:02
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| you need to talk with the dm about your character's goals and development, so he can come up with a story or adapt it into the ongoing one, other uninformed players will just follow along |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2010 : 16:07:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinnin
hey guys, its been a while.
just wondering what you do when you realise that what you want out of a session doesnt happen?
i have so many ideas in my head as to what i want, some of them just cant be done with the rules that are in place but no one else i play knows the realms like i do. and dont do alot of stuff.
Accent mine.
First, what rules are you playing with that you find it so constricting? That may be the problem - every set of rules has its own priorities, and some are more crunch-based, while others focus on RPing.
We would need at least one example of what you mean in order to figure-out where your sessions are 'going wrong'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Oct 2010 16:07:30 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 03:37:30
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Thar and Vaasa! Ah, the memories.
"What you want out of a session" might be easier to realize if the DM and players actually reserve a few minutes, just a few minutes, before and after each session for a little bit of unofficial OOC "meta-talk". More of a "trailers/credits" concept than a "prologue/epilogue" one. If the players don't have at least a vague notion of the DM's expectations or "vision" ... and the DM never gets any hints about what the players really want from adventuring ... how are these things ever going to happen? Just talk, ask, answer, be honest. What do you want? A better sword, a magical trinket, more spells, more wenches, more hack-n-slash, respectful treatment from someone else at the table, a different game setting, a different play schedule, what?
(Sure, you can do this when you're driving players home or sitting together on the bus or whatever it is you do - or even at school or work or ye olde pub if you don't mind nerding out in public - much better to do it all at the table with all the needed players and references handy, bad things can happen when people get excluded.)
Or you can passively hope that random fate will just take you where you think you want to be.
Or you can actively dominate and railroad the entire game (as DM or as a player), forcibly manhandling everyone else to get dragged along on your ride.
Agreed that quick'n'dirty DM's fiat, handwavium, and "artistic license" can resolve a lot of issues. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 14 Oct 2010 03:59:44 |
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Dinnin
Seeker
Australia
53 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 07:13:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
you need to talk with the dm about your character's goals and development, so he can come up with a story or adapt it into the ongoing one, other uninformed players will just follow along
i would agree with this but its the other players that really make it hard aswell, most the time they sit around and laugh about random things and just dont know the realms so they dont care. DM tried to keep it on track but it doesnt work |
"Use yer heads! A barnyard goose tastes better 'an a wild one cause it don't use its muscles. The same oughta hold true for a giant's brains!"
Bruenor Battlehammer |
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Dinnin
Seeker
Australia
53 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 07:13:59
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First, what rules are you playing with that you find it so constricting? That may be the problem - every set of rules has its own priorities, and some are more crunch-based, while others focus on RPing.
We would need at least one example of what you mean in order to figure-out where your sessions are 'going wrong'.
[/quote]
Right so coming from the FR books of drizzt, and other you know what the realm is like, you know you see a drow you just dont let them walk around, or some 1 and a half foot purple dude.
alot of them dont get it, plus i know mechanic wise you read the book and a orc or giant go down in one hit, doesnt happen in game. |
"Use yer heads! A barnyard goose tastes better 'an a wild one cause it don't use its muscles. The same oughta hold true for a giant's brains!"
Bruenor Battlehammer |
Edited by - Dinnin on 14 Oct 2010 07:15:39 |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 13:16:33
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I dunno about you, but if I saw a one-and-a-half foot tall purple dude marching about like he owned the place, I'd damn well let him do it and hit the whiskey ASAP! :)
In all seriousness though, expecting a gaming experience to be just like a literary experience is just going to kill your brain cells. They're completely different animals. As for one-hit wonder monsters, though, you can address that a number of ways; if they have lots of HP, then HP loss prior to the killing blow can be narrated as the progress of a duel with lots of crossed swords and cool stunts with loads of nicks and scratches building up to the actual proper hit that ends the battle. Also, with Drizzt, he's usually statted up as very high level with exceptionally high stats, so wading through legions of low level monsters (such as orcs and basic ogres) wouldn't be a problem.
EDIT: you could try reading up on and experimenting with other systems, but you're highly unlikely to find one that's completely ideal, you'll just wind up swapping one set of niggles for another. Eg., 4e does one-hit minion monsters relatively well, as well as 'boss' monsters (IMHO), but then it's very gamey (as in it's not simulationist, it doesn't taste like a pheasant... as far as I know), which probably won't help you capture the magic of a Drizzt novel, etc... |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
Edited by - Cleric Generic on 14 Oct 2010 13:23:57 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 15:53:18
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So your 'window' into the Realms is the Drizzt books?
Or is theirs?
The novels ruined the game - I can't be of any help. They distort the reality and balance Ed so carefully crafted.
In their defense, the novels highlight the highly unusual situations some of the 'bigger-then-life' characters get into, and those situations are not commonplace by any stretch of the imagination.
Who's camp is the DM in? Obviously the rest of the group is of the 'casual gamer' variety - is he more serious about his world?
And what edition rules do you use? Not trying to start another debate, but different editions did place focus on different aspects. 4th edition rules are far more suited to a more casual level of play. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Oct 2010 15:54:37 |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2010 : 19:59:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinnin
hey guys, its been a while.
just wondering what you do when you realise that what you want out of a session doesnt happen?
i have so many ideas in my head as to what i want, some of them just cant be done with the rules that are in place but no one else i play knows the realms like i do. and dont do alot of stuff.
what would you guys do?
Hi Dinnin! What system are you using? The 3.5ed of DnD did a great job dealing with the issues you describe! Maybe you should give that a try? The literary feel of the Realms is easier to achieve in 3.5! One hit kills, etc. 3.5!
Also, just use your Realmslore knowledge, that you believe your character *should* possess, in game! Stay in character, and you comrades will do so, too! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2010 : 02:32:49
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Yes, different versions of the game define the game in different ways which shift and shape the balance of verisimulitude.
4e rules tend to be better suited towards "fantastic", character powers are standardized for quicker "Hollywood" arcade-like styles of gameplay. The emphasis of the rules streamlines heroic role-playing and glosses over unexciting limitations (like worrying about the inks in your spellbook) or routine chores (like combat against unworthy opponents). In my mind, 4e gameplay somewhat resembles playing Diablo 2; role-playing seems to take second stage to your generic character spending a lot of time chopping through hordes of unworthy opponents before encountering a challenging BBEG. A problem with this system is that, after a while, every character essentially evolves into a variation of the same character who's best at everything; different paths all lead to the same stats, same powers, same gear. A second problem is that the fantastic becomes the commonplace; magic items and spells are mass produced instead of crafted, tieflings and genasi and half-dragons aren't particularly remarkable, it makes you begin to wonder how unexciting plain vanilla humans manage to survive at all.
1e and 2e rules tend to be better suited towards "simulation", characters struggle with problems and complexities that are modelled somewhat comparably to those seen in the RL world. The emphasis of the rules is to define a detailed "reality", a fantastic setting full of mechanistic quirks and limitations; your character is often forced to make choices and accept compromises, there's just not enough time, money, and resources to be good at everything. Even Elminster couldn't do everything under these rules. The upside is that a developed character who has that special power (combat move, spell, magic item) has a real advantage, and over time can accumulate a very unique arsenal. Magic is always precious and treasured, and creatures like genasi and half-dragons are rare and terrible. A downside is that even routine combat encounters can sometimes require access to pages of rules and lore. Another downside is that conscious choices (by the DM and by the players) about what constitutes a "balanced" game can be a bit more obviously arbitrary.
(In my mind the 3.0 and 3.5 rules were intermediate attempts to refine the best/worst rules of previous and subsequent D&D versions; probably best if generally avoided. Other people's opinions will differ.)
Groups need to find the right "balance". The XP, gold, and magical gadgets spilleth over from an abundant DM's cup, whilst other players drinketh only dust, ash, and steel regardless of how they toil. Character from one campaign might have astonishingly generous stats, powers, and toys which flow across many pages; while characters at the other extreme might be proud that they have couple of a "high" (15+) stats or finally a full suit of armor or one of the spells they wanted or perhaps even a shiny new +1 spear. Experienced roleplayers understand that (regardless of first impressions) both of these systems can work perfectly and both can be enjoyable. A common balance issue comes from alignment - some groups automatically favour LG while others tend towards CE (a successful all-Evil-PCs campaign is tricky and treacherous, but it can be done), and many groups hardly bother with alignments at all except as required by certain race/class/kit choices.
"Balance" should always mean "fair". A smart DM doesn't pit unarmed characters against red dragons. A smart DM lets players have a reasonable chance of obtaining what they want, but doesn't just hand out powerful "gifts" (which differ from "rewards" because - contrary to whatever half-veiled promises the DM might make - the gifts are just freebies which aren't actually earned). A smart DM doesn't let "his" campaign get strangled or escalated.
Groups need to address everybody's "playstyle". This is especially true with new or inexperienced players and DMs. Some people envision the game as they've seen it in the novels; uniquely powerful characters who unerringly/eventually prevail over all opposition and obstacles in their path (in a world which often "fudges the rules" a bit to accomodate them). Some people just never understand the purpose of the game and do whatever it takes to accumulate character power or "win". Some people get frustrated that a DM/player interferes with their attempts to construct The Perfect (Mary-Sue) character. Some people play for the simple love of acting and interacting, they often see the game as a story and are genuinely confused/frustrated when their hero suffers or dies even after they did everything right. Some people see the game as a tool or platform which enables them to bully or abuse their peers. Some people prefer to randomly wander around an incidental setting (little more than a monster-infested dungeon/wilderness area and nearby "town") and build power through an endless string of random combats, à la World of Warcraft. A good DM will understand what he and his players expect to get out of the game, and a very good one will be willing to introduce changes which accomodate the preferred playstyles of everyone involved, whatever way works best. I repeat my advice from several posts above; DMs and players must reserve a little OOC time to be able to talk (and listen) to each other's comments about the game. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 15 Oct 2010 03:16:51 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2010 : 04:26:03
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When in doubt, randomly roll a handful of dice and teleport the party
somewhere else via moving portal. |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Hit a Brickwall
