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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 19:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
We know that Telamont Tanthul has the resources to return his son from the dead. We also are given the impression, in my opinion, in RotAW that The Most High genuinely cares for his children.
I agree, but he is also shown as the stern father, kinda like the Steward of Gondor in LotR with his 'Return victorious, or return not at all' attitude with his sons. It is also revealed in the Twilight War how much he hates Rivalen (and why, which is a darn good reason).
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 19:55:51
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| Rivalen was killed by Vangey |
z455t |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 20:18:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
Rivalen was killed by Vangey
Can you tell us when that happenned? Because as dennis quoted earlier:
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
from The Summoning
As he approached his tower, a half dozen murky figures stepped out of the shadows and arrayed themselves before the entrances. There was the hornhelmed one called Rivalen, a square-chinned one in wizard robes, a cleric with a face as round as a dark moon, and three more swaddled in dark tabards that might have been covering armor or mere flesh.
Like all good assassins, they wasted no time with preliminaries. The square-chinned
wizard took the lead, launching himself straight at Elminster, his dark fingers already flashing through a spell to dismiss his foe's magic shields. Elminster countered with his own dispelling enchantment, and Storm sent a ball of silver fire over his shoulder toward the wizard.
Elminster had a bare moment to wonder if that was a good idea, then the sphere of blazing raw magic struck the shadow mage's spell shield. Instead of blasting through the barrier, as it would have any normal protection, the silver fire spread over the wizard's shadowy shield, silhouetting his body in white radiance. The shadow mage howled and covered his eyes, then the silver fire imploded, crushing the fellow in its iron grip and shrinking to a brilliant orb barely the size of an eyeball.
And considering that Rivalen is the strongest of the 12 sons, and that stats-wise he's twice the character level of Vangey (I know novels don't take stats into consideration, much), it is fair to assume that Vangey couldn't have killed him, but El could. I just can't remember Vangey encountering, much less defeating, Rivalen.
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Edited by - Kilvan on 05 Oct 2010 20:19:15 |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 20:19:40
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| At the end of the second book in Tilverton |
z455t |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 20:54:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
We know that Telamont Tanthul has the resources to return his son from the dead. We also are given the impression, in my opinion, in RotAW that The Most High genuinely cares for his children.
I agree, but he is also shown as the stern father, kinda like the Steward of Gondor in LotR with his 'Return victorious, or return not at all' attitude with his sons. It is also revealed in the Twilight War how much he hates Rivalen (and why, which is a darn good reason).
He cares for his sons, alright. But nothing is more important to him than rebuilding his empire. Remember that scene in Shadowrealm where he threatened to kill Brennus (his and his wife's favorite son) if the prince tried in any way to slay Rivalen, whom - despite his hatred - considered a highly valuable tool. Brennus asked, "All this for the empire, Most High?" And Telamont simply said, "What else is there?" (If there's anyone more human than shade among the royal family, 'tis Brennus...) |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 20:59:40
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| You guys are discussing this as if the personalities of these characters were given much thought. Rebuilding his empire, ''Most High'' never had an empire. |
z455t |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 21:06:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
You guys are discussing this as if the personalities of these characters were given much thought. Rebuilding his empire, ''Most High'' never had an empire.
I disagree, though it is true that not all 12 sons were covered in the novels, those who were had personalities. And while Netheril never was Telamont's empire per se, he his one of the few survivors who wishes to rebuild it. If he ever managed that, it would be 'his' empire (or Shar's I guess). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 21:07:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kno
At the end of the second book in Tilverton
Possibly. Another "assumed" death of the said prince. But then, he never "actually" died. Here's the scene from The Siege:
quote:
Vangerdahast's weary arms came up, wrapping themselves around the skeletal body, and he uttered a familiar command word. They vanished in a sizzle of teleport magic—
—and Rivalen's raspy voice erupted in anguish on the orb-lit patio. Galaeron spun around to find the prince—or, rather, the prince's ribs and heart—erupting into golden flame as Vangerdahast tried to push the black thing into the inky darkness creeping toward them both. Galaeron was there in a leap, arriving heels first to kick Rivalen over the edge. The ribs and heart vanished, burning, into black nothingness—and Vangerdahast started after them, suddenly spinning around on his back, sleeve stretching over his head into darkness.
The words I highlighted seem to say that he teleported to whatever refuge he had.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 21:10:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
You guys are discussing this as if the personalities of these characters were given much thought. Rebuilding his empire, ''Most High'' never had an empire.
I disagree, though it is true that not all 12 sons were covered in the novels, those who were had personalities. And while Netheril never was Telamont's empire per se, he his one of the few survivors who wishes to rebuild it. If he ever managed that, it would be 'his' empire (or Shar's I guess).
I'm with you, Kilvan. Besides, Kno, if you read the entire Twilight War trilogy, you'd know that at least Telamont, Rivalen and Brennus were given enough personalities by Paul.
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Noxica
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 05 Oct 2010 : 21:58:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Reading further in this thread, I now know I have read of Melevaunt, if it is the same one that encountered those Vassan barbarians. One of those quirky little FR stories that don't appear to have much connection to previously established lore.
How many other characters that lived on the shade enclave are fleshed out in great detail? Given that Melegaunt hasn't visited the realms since Netheril times, It makes sense we wouldn't hear about him until that story, That story also ties into Return of the Archwizards which takes place many many years later.
That story was trying to create lore for a character we didn't know about because they haven't lived on Toril for a long time.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
One last commentary - when every group and its brother creates a 'special set of swords', guess what? They ain't so special anymore. 'Unnecessary redundancy' at its finest. If you like what someone else did, then use it, don't make your own version - its just cheesy (and wreaks of 'one-upmanship'). At the very least, make it something other then swords - how boring can you get? Netherease Archmages were known for their use of sceptres, NOT swords.
I was almost ready to read this series - thanks for reminding me why I've been avoiding it.
The swords are made of glass and imbued with shadow energy, For the populace of the shade enclave they are not new or extremely special, they are just products of living in the shadow plane. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 00:39:49
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My problem wasn't so much with Melegaunt, but rather the group of barbarians he encountered (it didn't make much sense IMHO). The mud-monsters were kinda cool, though.
As for the swords - Gotcha. Like I said, my ONLY encounter with any of this lore is through that one short story, which for me, seems to be just 'floating in the air'. Thank you for the explanation about the swords - I had thought the were like a Netherease version of the Elfblades.
Still... FR has enough special swords - you can pretty-much find a sword-artifact under any rock. Cormyr's got 'em, Impiltur's got 'em...
<insert massive yawn here>
'Special swords' aren't just a trope, they are beaten-to-death trope. Sword of Truth, Sword of Shanarra, Sword of Damocles, ect, ect... and of course Excalibur. Just for once, I'd like to see a damn spear, or an axe stuck in a rock. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Noxica
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 02:24:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My problem wasn't so much with Melegaunt, but rather the group of barbarians he encountered (it didn't make much sense IMHO). The mud-monsters were kinda cool, though.
As for the swords - Gotcha. Like I said, my ONLY encounter with any of this lore is through that one short story, which for me, seems to be just 'floating in the air'. Thank you for the explanation about the swords - I had thought the were like a Netherease version of the Elfblades.
Still... FR has enough special swords - you can pretty-much find a sword-artifact under any rock. Cormyr's got 'em, Impiltur's got 'em...
<insert massive yawn here>
'Special swords' aren't just a trope, they are beaten-to-death trope. Sword of Truth, Sword of Shanarra, Sword of Damocles, ect, ect... and of course Excalibur. Just for once, I'd like to see a damn spear, or an axe stuck in a rock.
I can definitely see where you are coming from. I think swords just have such a strong stigma and mesh so well with symbolism that they make natural choices for artifacts.
Fishermen catch trout with a barbed spear.. Knight saves a princess with a sword. Which one would you rather enchant with godly powers. *shrugs*
What did you dislike about the barbarians? He ran across barbarians in Vaasa.. What are the odds?  (pretty damn good)
Also: Brace I love your explanation of why Galeron was allowed to insult the Lord Shadow over and over and still be spared. It could be that they knew he had Melegaunts essence and were more worried about that then the Phaerimm Information he could provide. |
Edited by - Noxica on 06 Oct 2010 02:31:42 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 05:45:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Noxica
I can definitely see where you are coming from. I think swords just have such a strong stigma and mesh so well with symbolism that they make natural choices for artifacts.
The Shades could have used spear-staff ---the one used by Aoth Fezim. A sharp blade on one end, and a hard staff on the other ---both magical and highly effective in aerial battle.
quote:
Originally posted by Noxica
Also: Brace I love your explanation of why Galeron was allowed to insult the Lord Shadow over and over and still be spared. It could be that they knew he had Melegaunts essence and were more worried about that then the Phaerimm Information he could provide.
But as I recall there came a point when Telamont could tolerate the insult no more and warned the annoying elf that if he should go further, Telamont would disregard his usefulness and kill him forthwith. Or something along those lines.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 06:00:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My problem wasn't so much with Melegaunt, but rather the group of barbarians he encountered (it didn't make much sense IMHO). The mud-monsters were kinda cool, though.
As for the swords - Gotcha. Like I said, my ONLY encounter with any of this lore is through that one short story, which for me, seems to be just 'floating in the air'. Thank you for the explanation about the swords - I had thought the were like a Netherease version of the Elfblades.
Still... FR has enough special swords - you can pretty-much find a sword-artifact under any rock. Cormyr's got 'em, Impiltur's got 'em...
<insert massive yawn here>
'Special swords' aren't just a trope, they are beaten-to-death trope. Sword of Truth, Sword of Shanarra, Sword of Damocles, ect, ect... and of course Excalibur. Just for once, I'd like to see a damn spear, or an axe stuck in a rock.
I am not a fan of swords. I am biased to wizards; and wizards do not have to use swords but rather wield wands, staffs, or mere hands. But I think I have to point this out: maybe you're forgetting that the other name for 'fantasy' genre is 'sword and sorcery.' In FR alone, there are a plethora of the so-called special/magical swords ----the two swords of Drizz't; Weaveshear of Cale; Crackletogue of Zaranda Star, etc. If 'rich man meets poor woman' and 'marry happily ever after' are the cliché of romance books; swords and sorcery are for fantasy. So a friendly advice: might as well get used to it.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 06:04:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Noxica
quote:
Maybe you mean Darksword. I read that short story long time ago, and fortunately still remember almost all that happened in it. It only chronicles how Melegaunt recruited servants (the Vaasans) by creating darkswords to rid their village of vile creatures. I don't think there's any mention of Escanor being killed by a darksword. Or maybe you just meant that the details on Melegaunt creating that kind of sword is in that story?
Melegaunt creates the darksword, Then vala kills Escanor.
I think you're mixing the events from two separate stories. The details on how Melegaunt created the shadow-magic-imbued swords are in the short story Darksword in the Realms of Shadow anthology, while the scene featuring Vala's attempt (she wasn't successful, by the way) to kill Escanor is either in book 2 or 3 of RotA. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find it atm. But I'll try later.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 12:06:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I am unfamiliar with "How the Mighty Are Fallen", but does the Lichdom has anything to do with the actual plan? And I did something similar, but instead the Princes found a way to bring Karsus back to life (he's turned into a statue and is in his fallen city's ruin). They then tried to cast the spell using the Shadow Weave instead, which Shar managed to clean of Mystra's Ban. BTW, it turns out Karsus didn't co-operate, having realised that no man should hold such power.
As for Lamorak, I don't know anything more than his small entry in Lords of Darkness.
Thanks! I'll look in that book. I like the idea of the use of the Shadow Weave - I'll incorporate that somehow in his "attempted theft". The Lich thing in How the Mighty are Fallen I'm tweaking a bit to fit in to this whole angle I'm making to serve the campaign. Also, in the campaign, the spellplague freed Karsus' mortal shell, and he seeks to regain his divinity at the same time and take over the unclaimed portfolio of magic - I'm thinking perhaps Curuvar "the Brazen" is actually Karsus, seeking Netherese artifacts to aid him in doing so... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 13:51:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Noxica
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Reading further in this thread, I now know I have read of Melevaunt, if it is the same one that encountered those Vassan barbarians. One of those quirky little FR stories that don't appear to have much connection to previously established lore.
How many other characters that lived on the shade enclave are fleshed out in great detail? Given that Melegaunt hasn't visited the realms since Netheril times, It makes sense we wouldn't hear about him until that story, That story also ties into Return of the Archwizards which takes place many many years later.
That story was trying to create lore for a character we didn't know about because they haven't lived on Toril for a long time.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
One last commentary - when every group and its brother creates a 'special set of swords', guess what? They ain't so special anymore. 'Unnecessary redundancy' at its finest. If you like what someone else did, then use it, don't make your own version - its just cheesy (and wreaks of 'one-upmanship'). At the very least, make it something other then swords - how boring can you get? Netherease Archmages were known for their use of sceptres, NOT swords.
I was almost ready to read this series - thanks for reminding me why I've been avoiding it.
The swords are made of glass and imbued with shadow energy, For the populace of the shade enclave they are not new or extremely special, they are just products of living in the shadow plane.
+5 swords with extra special powers  |
z455t |
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Noxica
Acolyte
23 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 14:36:00
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
But as I recall there came a point when Telamont could tolerate the insult no more and warned the annoying elf that if he should go further, Telamont would disregard his usefulness and kill him forthwith. Or something along those lines.
This could just have been an empty threat. We will never know for sure. He knew that Galeron wanted to save vala so maybe he would have held his tongue. I believe that is when the Sharn showed up.
EDIT
Another note about these swords. Although they are fairly strong, there is a few things to note.
- First, each of the swords actually has a small curse with it as well, the swords are not perfect and the users actually tend to slowly be overcome with personality or physical flaws such as overwhelming greed or becoming crazed ect..
- Another thing is they have been passed through generations of families and can only be used by that bloodline, the swords likely have become stronger as this ritual has continued over and over. (No canon to support this fact but it seems to be implied as they weren't as strong when Melegaunt first created them, missing certain abilities ect..)
- Lastly, Do you have a reference for the supposed +5 magic blades of doom? |
Edited by - Noxica on 06 Oct 2010 14:42:16 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2010 : 15:34:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Noxica
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
But as I recall there came a point when Telamont could tolerate the insult no more and warned the annoying elf that if he should go further, Telamont would disregard his usefulness and kill him forthwith. Or something along those lines.
This could just have been an empty threat. We will never know for sure. He knew that Galeron wanted to save vala so maybe he would have held his tongue. I believe that is when the Sharn showed up.
Maybe not. Although he had never (yet) carried out his threats as those people he threatened were cowed by him, his sons included. In Galaeron's case, he didn't really have to kill him to make a point. He could simply manipulate the elf's shadow-self to torment him till he begged for mercy and promised to 'behave.'
quote:
Originally posted by Noxica
Another note about these swords. Although they are fairly strong, there is a few things to note.
- First, each of the swords actually has a small curse with it as well, the swords are not perfect and the users actually tend to slowly be overcome with personality or physical flaws such as overwhelming greed or becoming crazed ect..
- Another thing is they have been passed through generations of families and can only be used by that bloodline, the swords likely have become stronger as this ritual has continued over and over. (No canon to support this fact but it seems to be implied as they weren't as strong when Melegaunt first created them, missing certain abilities ect..)
Moreover, the darkswords are helpful tools for diviners who use shadow magic, for it either augments or makes divination easy to perform.
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Inaccurcies of 4ED (Shade Princes) *SPOILERS*
