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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 19:28:06
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So I'm creating this thread to answer questions, clear up any confusion about edition revisions (like how this ISN'T 4.5), and stir up any debate as to the Essentials line and how it can be used in the Realms (or any other setting for that matter).
What I've interpreted from the Pod-casts, authors/designers comments, and the vocal posters over at WotC-boards is that the Essentials are additive in nature to the 4e system and designed to bring in unexperienced games who might not have ever played D&D. Also, it's a nod to the old-guard players to bring back concepts of older editions like the Mage, Backstabbing, magic-missile auto-hitting, etc...
I believe the supplement Heroes of the Fallen Lands comes out tomorrow (I could be wrong, cuz speculation on the Wiz-bro boards flows like wine) so once I get a copy I'll delve into it and post thoughts, suggestions, and *gasp* actually have some answers.
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 20:13:46
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| You're a braver man than I! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 20:23:11
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Just what I thought it was going to be - a 'one step at a time' approach to D&D, VERY similar in concept to OD&D, but better integrated into developing it into AD&D at the end of the product line.
Originally, D&D did not mesh well with AD&D toward the end of its progression, which was a major failing and why there was a small learning-curve when switching. In theory, Essentials appears NOT so much to be a 'giant step backward', but rather a 'making-up for past mistakes' (in regards to the rules evolution).
Seems like a good idea - I wish them the best of luck with this approach; I will be keeping an eye on this.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
What I've interpreted from the Pod-casts, authors/designers comments, and the vocal posters over at WotC-boards is that the Essentials are additive in nature to the 4e system and designed to bring in inexperienced gamers who might not have ever played D&D. Also, it's a nod to the old-guard players to bring back concepts of older editions like the Mage, Backstabbing, magic-missile auto-hitting, etc...
Corrected.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Sep 2010 20:25:40 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 20:49:58
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| Thanks buddy! Yea I'm at work so I gotta type fast so the supervisor doesn't notice the blogging, lol. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 22:30:05
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I plan to check it out eventually, I just haven't yet.
I rather like the concept of how they handle magic items--it makes magical treasures a lot more interesting, not just a mechanic on an item card.
I just wanted to point this out, for the enjoyment of both the pro-essentials and anti-essentials crowd (NOT entirely safe for work): http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/8/23/
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2010 : 22:45:14
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| This may be a culture-clash, but other than the whole reading-webcomics-on-company-time, what's not safe for work about that strip? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 04:17:38
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Haha, yea that is pretty funny. Though it was better that I read it at home instead of at work. My place of employment is goofy like that.
But in light of that comic, I think it deserves to be discussed as Essentials makes is debut soon. People have been expending their nerd-rage daily powers over on the WotC forums about what this essentials product is, or is not. Some nay-sayers (anti-essentials ppl) believe this is a rebuild of 4e and thus should call it 4.5e. Why they think this way is pretty much beyond me mainly because if people actually watched what was going on, they'd see constant errata and rules up-dates (revisions) on a quarter-monthly rotation. And I'd be hard pressed to count each errata update as a .5 or whatever.
Secondly, the information from ALL the previous source material (PHB/PH2/PH3, DMG, Power books, etc..) is still valid and can be used with any Essential product. This was not how it went down with 3.5e. There, you had to re-buy all the Core books and the reprinted material in the future "Complete" books that had already seen some sort of light in the 3.0 supplements (Defenders of the Faith and so forth).
Anyways, I think the only downside to all this is WotC game plan is changing as they've stated that their structure will most likly follow this sort of sub-class line of doing classes in the future. So rest assured that the Hexblade, 1st speculated to be in the Heroes of Shadow book next March, will be a sub-class of the Warlock and the Necromancer will be a sub-class of the Wizard.
And I know some of the designers here can't say because of NDA but I firmly believe the Bladesinger will be an Essential build from the Swordmage. Which is fine because the two are very similar, I just think it silly to keep all *hush hush* about it. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 05:59:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I mean, it just feels to me like they are really wishing they hadn't made those trailers when 4E came out blasting how bad the early editions were...
How could they? Wish is gone in 4e ...  |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 13:05:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I don't know. Is it just me, or does it seem like WotC/Hasbro are trying REALLY hard to get old gamers back? I mean, it just feels to me like they are really wishing they hadn't made those trailers when 4E came out blasting how bad the early editions were...
I think the current promotional efforts come from the fact that they grew up in the '80s. And some of their most memorable experiences came from the Red Box. In my case, I started playing using the rules the 'older kids' were using at the time, which was 1st Edition AD&D. When the Red Box came out the rules were simple enough for me and friends that were closer to my age to play it...without guidance.
Lets say years later I end up working for Hasbro.
And I was on the team who had to promote the 'new' Red Box.
Guess what I would do? Besides high fiving my teammates and saying, "Hell yeah! Let the good times roll a twenty!" We would do this:
http://cyclopeatron.blogspot.com/2010/09/wotc-recycles-classic-trampier-art-on.html
And this...
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/redbox.aspx
Final words: The 80's are in at the moment too. GI Joe, Transformers comics and movies. Remakes of of 80's movies (He-Man, Robocop, Friday the 13th, Elm Street...etc..etc) or new movies trying to capture the 80s action movies vibe (The expendables did capture this vibe)and unfortunately the fashion is coming back in style.
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - Bakra on 10 Sep 2010 13:10:23 |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 13:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I mean, it just feels to me like they are really wishing they hadn't made those trailers when 4E came out blasting how bad the early editions were...
How could they? Wish is gone in 4e ...
Please give this Scribe a +1 Cigar. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 16:24:26
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Well they'd be silly not to attempt to cater to all genre of D&D players, not just the ones new to the RP experience. I think its pretty smart and gives us people who were NOT prvi to the older adventures like myself who got heavily into D&D during the 3/3.5 era.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
How could they? Wish is gone in 4e ...
Yea, that's probably another redeeming quality of 4E since that spell was such a problem. Maybe it was just my gaming group but the use of that spell would cause a heap of arguments from the DMs and Players alike that I think it's more trouble than it's worth. And really, is that spell needed for the game to "feel" like D&D? I'd argue that the answer would be NO.
Just sayin...
EDIT: Yea, lol I just got the joke. Man am I being slow today. Sorry for getting all serious. |
Edited by - Diffan on 10 Sep 2010 18:16:25 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2010 : 17:19:33
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I get the feeling that the drive to 'attract new blood' didn't pan out so well, but who knows?
I have four boys, and it seems there is little interest in playing anything that doesn't take place on a screen any more. 
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I mean, it just feels to me like they are really wishing they hadn't made those trailers when 4E came out blasting how bad the early editions were...
How could they? Wish is gone in 4e ...
Please give this Scribe a +1 Cigar.
Agreed.
Trying to stay 'neutral' is one thing, but that was just full of WIN.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 22:13:49
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So a poster named Fiery Dragon over at ENworld was kind enought to share his insights on the book Heroes of the Fallen Lands Essentials he received and has been answering alot of questions that many people have been asking. This is the thread that has alot of answers for people.
In case you don't want to visit the site and read through the question or have a particular question that your not sure the thread covered, I'll do what I can to find a suitable answer. For example, some people really wanted school of magic in 4E but the design of the system really didn't allow for it. In Essentials, the "Mage" has 3 schools to choose from (Enchantment, Evocation, and Illusion). While the Mage's primary stat is still Intelligence, secondary stats really matter when it comes to a particular school. Enchanters really focus on Charisma as it helps to be more persuasive when controlling their enchanted victim. Evokers rely on Constitution to give their spells extra UMPH and they'll likely see more melee-combat. Illusionists rely on Wisdom to better guide their spells, etc..
Here's a quick overview (posted by Fiery Dragon)~
For the Schools of Magic, you get Mage features at 1,5,10 and it dictates your paragon path.
For Enchantment School, you get:
lvl 1: Apprentice - forced movement bonus increase +2
lvl 5: Expert - +2 bluff/diplomacy
lvl 10: Master +2 bonus to forced attacks (when you dominate someone)
Enchantment uses Charisma
Evocation, you get:
lvl 1: Apprentice - reroll all 1s for damage
lvl 5: Expert - +2 Endurance/Intimidate
lvl 10: Master - ignore type resistance for damage (but not immunities)
Evocation uses Constitution
Illusion, you get
lvl 1: Apprentice - targets take -2 penalty to next attack against you
lvl 5: Expert - +2 Bluff/Stealth
lvl 10: Master - target grants combat advantage
Illusion uses Wisdom
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 22:19:41
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| Here's another little tid-bit, there are no Rituals in Heroes of the Fallen Lands. There is no Ritual Caster feat. This, however, does not mean that they no longer exist. Since the Essentials is targeted for people who've never played an PnP RPG or have very limited experience doing them I'm assuming that Rituals would be a little advanced for their style of play. The way Fiery Dragon put it is that 4E is like a blanket system that that can be incorporated into any existing setting or style of play. Essentials doesn't re-hash the information in PHB to fit more room for newer stuff. You could just as easily play ONLY Essentials and that's perfectly fine and the 4E system is there in case you want to add further content. Mostly everything that has happened with the coming of Essentials was probably going to happen anyways (rule changing wise) and that's a good think because D&D is always evolving. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2010 : 23:38:52
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I'm confused - I thought the Essentials books would be a 'step-program' to the learning curve of RPGs; basically, you learn the 4e rules a little at a time.
And that was an idea that sounded okay to me...
Am I to understand that the Essentials books are even MORE like OD&D then I thought? That it is actually a different system? The 'magic schools' almost make it seem like an 'options' book to me.
I need some clarification here. How can a 'beginner version' have rules that the 'full version' doesn't even have?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Sep 2010 19:40:59 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 00:50:47
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It doesn't have rules that the 'Full' version doesn't have, but it DOES leave out a lot of rules that 4E uses.
And from all the reviews I've heard, it's EXACTLY like the OD&D Red Box, including a 'Choose your own adventure' opening adventure to teach players the rules... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 01:26:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm confused - I thought the Essentials books would be an step-program to the learning curve of RPGs; basically, you learn the 4e rules a little at a time.
And that was an idea that sounded okay to me...
Am I to understand that the Essentials books are even MORE like OD&D then I thought? That it is actually a different system? The 'magic schools' almost make it seem like an 'options' book to me.
I need some clarification here. How can a 'beginner version' have rules that the 'full version' doesn't even have?
It's weird, I know. And not having the book in front of me to reference is frustrating, so let me try to "wing it" here. Going by the book Essentials: Heroes of the Forgotten Lands (or E:HFL for short) you get 4 basic classes to choose from- Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Thief. These have some variations within each class. The fighter can select a specific style, the Knight or Slayer. The cleric has either Warpriest or Sun-something or other. The Wizard can choose a specific school to specialize in (Ench, Evo, Ill). The classes in E:HFL go by class levels and receive specific class features at those levels (unlike 4E PHB where you get your Class features up front and gain powers at each level). These abilities get stronger as you advance (reference would be great here but alas..). So it's sorta like 3.5 where you gain class levels and abilities of those levels.
Taking a look at Fiery Dragon's posts, certain rules aren't being introduced with E:HFL supplement. Namely Rituals, a host of magical items including Wondrous Items, plus rules like Marking (no class in E:HFL has a class that "marks" a target). |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 07:42:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I don't know. Is it just me, or does it seem like WotC/Hasbro are trying REALLY hard to get old gamers back? I mean, it just feels to me like they are really wishing they hadn't made those trailers when 4E came out blasting how bad the early editions were...
Do you think that maybe this is a reaction to how the ENnies went down? And I do mean down, as far as Wizbro was concerned...
 It's going to take more than recycled classic art to bring me back to Wizbro... releasing the Cormyr Lineage would be a good start, but honestly I'm happy with my slightly-tweaked Pathfinder ruleset now, and the whole "homogenization of the worlds" that has gone on with 4E has completely turned me off. I was initially excited to learn that they were bringing Dark Sun back... and then I read the books at my FLGS. It's not really Athas; it's "all the core rules options PLUS Athas". Part of what made Dark Sun cool was that there were no orcs or gnomes or certain other races. I think that what Wizbro is missing here is that different campaign settings need to be just that: different. If the light goes on and they comprehend this fact, then maybe they can bring me back for 5E... but that will depend greatly (in fact, almost entirely) on what they do with the Realms. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 11:11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I don't know. Is it just me, or does it seem like WotC/Hasbro are trying REALLY hard to get old gamers back? I mean, it just feels to me like they are really wishing they hadn't made those trailers when 4E came out blasting how bad the early editions were...
Do you think that maybe this is a reaction to how the ENnies went down? And I do mean down, as far as Wizbro was concerned...
It's going to take more than recycled classic art to bring me back to Wizbro... releasing the Cormyr Lineage would be a good start, but honestly I'm happy with my slightly-tweaked Pathfinder ruleset now, and the whole "homogenization of the worlds" that has gone on with 4E has completely turned me off. I was initially excited to learn that they were bringing Dark Sun back... and then I read the books at my FLGS. It's not really Athas; it's "all the core rules options PLUS Athas". Part of what made Dark Sun cool was that there were no orcs or gnomes or certain other races. I think that what Wizbro is missing here is that different campaign settings need to be just that: different. If the light goes on and they comprehend this fact, then maybe they can bring me back for 5E... but that will depend greatly (in fact, almost entirely) on what they do with the Realms.
I haven't read the Dark Sun material and I'm not familiar with the setting but there's nothing stopping an individual DM from excluding certain classes or races from that particular setting. Going from my FRCG/FRPG there is no mention of Warforged at all, this is done specifically because FR had no warforged yet if someone wanted to incorporate them into the setting it was easily done. Its not so much a "Hey use this insert race or class here because it's in this book" but add what you like and dismiss what you don't. Maybe a DM wants Orcs on Athlas, or warforged, or Gnomes, or Artificers and Genasi. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 11:24:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
It doesn't have rules that the 'Full' version doesn't have, but it DOES leave out a lot of rules that 4E uses.
And from all the reviews I've heard, it's EXACTLY like the OD&D Red Box, including a 'Choose your own adventure' opening adventure to teach players the rules...
It has the updated rules for 4E (they've tweaked things like Stealth, treasure tables, etc.) but if you want additional content like the "FULL" class of the Fighter or Rogue or Warlock (meaning feats and utility powers) your going to have to buy the PHB. If you want to play a Barbarian your going to have to buy the PH2 and so on. It's very additive in nature.
Can people play just Essentials/E:HFL? Sure thing and it's done so in a way that encompasses what you essentially (hah!) need to get started. The additional support like Monster Vault, DM Tool-kit will round out the games essential (hah again!) necessities to run it. I think it's done this way because people might not want to incorporate classes like the Monk or Artificer or Swordmage but still want to use certain "classic" arch-types like the Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Thief. It keeps it simple pretty much.
Since I've never played OD&D, I don't really know what was used or how it played but for "advanced" gamers who've say...been using 4E since it's advent 2 years ago, the Essentials are additional options for existing players. A Slayer would work perfectly find next classes found in previous source material (PH/PH2/PH3/Power books) and the same goes for the creatures in Monsters Vault. Even though it's more level based for E:HFL class features, classes still retain certain aspects of the traditional 4E rules (at-will, encounter, daily powers) and as such can multi-class perfectly fine with previous sources and/or take Paragon Paths/Epic Destinies from their parent class. It's why these sub-classes were broken down from a "main" class. A Slayer is still considered a Fighter for all intent and purposes for choosing feats, Utility powers, PPs and EDs. |
Edited by - Diffan on 13 Sep 2010 11:26:12 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 11:55:54
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| Okay, I'm confused... What I'm seeing here is that you can play with Essentials by itself, as it's a stripped down version of the PHB, but Essentials also adds to the PHB material? So it's both a basic set and a splatbook? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 13:51:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, I'm confused... What I'm seeing here is that you can play with Essentials by itself, as it's a stripped down version of the PHB, but Essentials also adds to the PHB material? So it's both a basic set and a splatbook?
That's what it sounds like to me from what Diffan's saying.
"Never played D&D before? Try our Essentials line! It has everything you need!"
"Hey D&D Players! Here's some cool new stuff for your game!"
"Hey old D&D Players! Check this out! We've brought back OD&D!"
You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
--Abraham Lincoln |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 14:03:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, I'm confused... What I'm seeing here is that you can play with Essentials by itself, as it's a stripped down version of the PHB, but Essentials also adds to the PHB material? So it's both a basic set and a splatbook?
Basically yes. There is going to be another book called Heroes of the Fallen Kingdoms that includes 4 more additional classes (a Sentenial druid, Cavalier paladin, Hexblade warlock, and a ranger who's speciality I don't remember).
If you've played 4E before, think of these as sub-classes like 3.5 in which they're slightly modified versions of the base class with special features at certain levels.
The Essentials look great for new players that don't have to worry about being overwhelmed with options from various splat-books like Divine, Martial, Psionic Power yet has the flexability to be useful to the player's already heavily invested in the game.
I'd suggest people who don't want to shell out $100s of dollars for all the 4E splat-books, Core-books, and DDI to at lesat take a look at the Red Box for the game mechanics etc. And if someone has fun with the Red Box and wants additional conent then subscribe to DDI and download all the info you want. You'll have the Character Builder and DM toolkit for like $10 then cancel your subscription. With this you can create any sort of character using the up-dated rules from all printed sources of D&D and DDI material plus all the classes and races available. And the DM toolkit allows a DM to customize any monster that's already available (including leveling/de-leveling said monsters, giving them additional powers) or completly create your own.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 14:37:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay, I'm confused... What I'm seeing here is that you can play with Essentials by itself, as it's a stripped down version of the PHB, but Essentials also adds to the PHB material? So it's both a basic set and a splatbook?
That's what it sounds like to me from what Diffan's saying.
"Never played D&D before? Try our Essentials line! It has everything you need!"
"Hey D&D Players! Here's some cool new stuff for your game!"
"Hey old D&D Players! Check this out! We've brought back OD&D!"
You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.
--Abraham Lincoln
I really don't know who you think WotC is trying to fool. It spells it out rather plainly if you ask me. And what's wrong with attempting to appeal to a broader group? Now I don't agree with the way WotC released 4E in 2008 and the bashing they gave to earlier editions but I think they're trying to save face here and at least it's better than complete ignorance of what they did. Besides, after 2 years you'd think people would've gotten over it by now. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2010 : 18:55:53
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| I don't fault them for trying to appeal to every person between 13-25 (although I still don't see TV ads...), I just feel that by trying to appeal to such a wide demographic, they are 'watering down' the quality of the game. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 08:28:07
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| I think it was an improvement by WotC, I prefer simpler rules. If we didn't have our homebrew system and if 4e fluff and artwork were better I'd certainly try it. The amount of 4e mechanics seems overwhelming. Magic missile not auto-hitting and and at-will powers is what we use too, except after some time there's fatigue and hp-loss. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 19:54:04
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Yup - in many ways 4e is the system I have been working towards, and now that I see it, I realize it is so simple as to be generic, which is why I didn't care for GURPS.
The old 'be careful what you wish for' paradigm. 
It seems to me that you can play a purely 4e game, or a purely Essentials game, OR you can mix and match and the rules will still work.
THAT is what I am getting here.
I want to give Essentials a shot - my two younger boys are 12 and 8 (soon to be 13 and 9), and while I have taught 13 year-olds how to play D&D in the past, I don't think I could teach 3e to a 9-yr-old.
Then again, he is brilliant... must be genetic.
Anyhow, playing a game with all four of my boys (I've run games for the older two and their friends in the past) would be a dream come true. Why do you think I had FOUR boys?
One for each basic class. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 08:43:08
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What a plan MT, you could have worked better on the age differences.
I looked into the box just now, as usual it's not what I hoped for, something like the starter set you got with 3e. don't remember. Ideally it would be 3 or 4 classes with possibilities for branching (feat trees, skills and powers) into everything else. Wonder what are the costs of multiclassing in 4e ...? Should be none. And still the problem is that the description of powers is uninspiring, has the flavor of a kitchen-appliance manual. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4436 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 11:24:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I looked into the box just now, as usual it's not what I hoped for, something like the starter set you got with 3e. don't remember. Ideally it would be 3 or 4 classes with possibilities for branching (feat trees, skills and powers) into everything else. Wonder what are the costs of multiclassing in 4e ...? Should be none. And still the problem is that the description of powers is uninspiring, has the flavor of a kitchen-appliance manual.
Multiclassing in 4E is done simply by taking a feat (each class has a multi-class feat) in which you gain training in a specific class skill of the other class (such as multi-classing into Ranger probably net you Nature skill) and often some sort of ability or class feature of the other class. It's not the exact form, it's modified such as one Ranger multi-class feat that allows you to use it's Hunter's Quarry feature 1/day (ranger's can benefit from Hunter's Quarry 1/round).
With additional feats, you can access powers from the second class such as encounter, utility, and daily powers (each requiring a feat to do so) and as you gain levels, you can swap the power multipul times at higher levels. But the restriction is limited to 1 encounter, 1 utility, and 1 daily power of the second class.
There are other ways, however, to mix/mash classes together. If you take the Multiclass feat of a certain class (we'll go with Ranger again) and all the power-swap feats by 11th level you can Paragon-Multiclass. This allows you to further expand on your other class abilities instead of taking a Paragon Path (equivalent of a Prestige class). Doing so allows you to swap one of your at-will attacks at 11th level. In place of a paragon path encounter power gained at 11th level, you can select any encounter power of 7th level or lower from your second class. In place of the paragon path utility power at 12th level, you can select a utility power of 10th level or lower from you second class. In place of the paragon path daily power gained at 20th level, you can select a daily power of 19th level or lower from you second class.
If you want to go even further, you can Hybrid your classes together which are "sorta" like Gestalt from 3.5 (but without the Brokeness of it). This allows you to mix both classes together and if you still want to multiclass into a 3rd class, your allowed to do so.
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4e Essentials
