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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 15:13:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie... (and a colony of gnomes actually escaped to set up a new island of invention elsewhere in the Realms--possibly on a floating earthmote? . . .)
Pardon me while I steal this idea for my campaign... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4435 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 17:10:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Really love Lantan, for instance, and are bummed that it got exploded? Well, either you incorporate/modify (and a colony of gnomes actually escaped to set up a new island of invention elsewhere in the Realms--possibly on a floating earthmote? in the Underdark? in a tavern in Silverymoon?) or ignore (Lantan didn't explode--it's right there) or a combination (people only *thought* Lantan blew up, but what *really* happened to it is . . .), etc.
Cheers
It's funny that you mention Lantan because that was one nation I actually kept in my 4E Realms but now it's a cool combination of Atlantis and Bio-Shock with elements of steam-punk and revolutionary inventions like the Ironclad Warships. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 17:17:13
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Why couldn't Lantan be a floating earthmote?
A very, VERY big one.
And if you 'anchor it' somewhere, you can have a 'Land under Shadow' which could be useful for other things. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 17:27:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Really love Lantan, for instance, and are bummed that it got exploded? Well, either you incorporate/modify (and a colony of gnomes actually escaped to set up a new island of invention elsewhere in the Realms--possibly on a floating earthmote? in the Underdark? in a tavern in Silverymoon?) or ignore (Lantan didn't explode--it's right there) or a combination (people only *thought* Lantan blew up, but what *really* happened to it is . . .), etc.
All of which, are equally plausible.
As I recall, Lantan was "mostly" destroyed by the great tsunamis that inundated the island, after the shifting of the continents. When the region emerged from the waters, the majority of its people and technology, as such, were gone. The island still exists, but 'tis greatly reduced in size.
To bring back the island, it could be as easy as having explorers eventually discover [given the disruption of the Spellplague and subsequent chaos impacting on overall shipping throughout the region] that much more of Lantan emerged intact, than was previously thought. Both the gnomes and humans of Lantan are an inventive sort, so I wouldn't automatically assume that they can't or won't re-settle the island, nor deny any attempts at restructuring their cities and towns to take advantage of the altered landscape. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 17:27:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
It's funny that you mention Lantan because that was one nation I actually kept in my 4E Realms but now it's a cool combination of Atlantis and Bio-Shock with elements of steam-punk and revolutionary inventions like the Ironclad Warships.
Hmmm, intriguing. Tell me more.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 18:17:59
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I have just two words: Gnome submarine.
Think about it. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 18:28:34
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Another scenario would be for Gond to have built-in a 'doomsday device'. Basically, since he is an anti-magical power anyway, and inventiveness breeds paranoia, he may have built some sort of steamtech-style engines beneath Lantan's major settlements which would be activated in case of a magical emergency (or catastrophe, as in the case of the spellplague).
Maybe he would have created the magical equivalent of Mythalars, so the cities could leave Lantan of threatened, or even some sort of anti-magical domes to protect the cities, which would also serve to keep the atmosphere viable (designed to keep-out 'Stinking Cloud' type effects, but would also fortuitously maintain air for the inhabitants if the cities sank).
Or he could have just built a device that teleported everything 'man-made' to Abeir. If the cloaking-effect Ao used to hide Abeir was magical in nature (which seems obvious), Gond of all the gods would have found a way around it (just as he found a way around other tech-restrictions imposed by Ao). Then if you wanted to still use Lantan, you could say that the newly-designed flying ships of Lantan were trans-planer vessels (which also provides a neat way for DMs to get their PCs to Abeir if they want).
I assume Abeir is/was hidden in the Astral, given the lack of any sort of 'system' around the planet, and the uniform silver sky. However, you can really put it anywhere you like, and just say the cloaking-effect caused the sky's color. You could even use one of the the other theories - where Abeir is in the same orbit as Toril, 180° on the other side of the sun - and have the Gnomes Spelljamming between worlds.
Lots of things one could do with Lantan. They didn't really get rid of it, but rather, untethered it from canon, making it more useful to DMs. Now you can use it or ignore and it will work either way.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 18:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I have just two words: Gnome submarine.
Think about it.
Cheers
We all live in a Gnomish Submarine,
a Gnomish Submarine,
a Gnomish Submarine,
lalalala |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 18:32:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I have just two words: Gnome submarine.
So you've played Warcraft I & II, eh?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 19:18:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I have just two words: Gnome submarine.
So you've played Warcraft I & II, eh?
Yeah buddy.
So that illustrates my point--if you like the canon as it is, use it. If you don't, adapt it. In 90% of cases, you will be able to work within the boundaries of the canon to get whatever result you want.
I want to encourage people to do that, so we don't create the misconception of feeling *constrained* by canon.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 20:28:15
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Precisely - it was that horrible misconception that lead to the re-shaping of the Realms. If the vast majority of the FR-naysayers had just learned to ignore those aspects of the setting they didn't care for, we probably would have seen only a decade time-jump, at the most, and the history of the Realms proceed in a more... ummmm... LESS radical pace.
For example, I never liked Wemics. Can't stand them, actually... but I don't think any of you have ever heard me complain about them. There are plenty of things like that I just plain ignore; In the immortal words of John Lennon, "It's easy if you try..." |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2010 : 21:23:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Precisely - it was that horrible misconception that lead to the re-shaping of the Realms. If the vast majority of the FR-naysayers had just learned to ignore those aspects of the setting they didn't care for, we probably would have seen only a decade time-jump, at the most, and the history of the Realms proceed in a more... ummmm... LESS radical pace.
I suspect the vast majority of FR naysayers simply didn't bother playing in the setting. Whether the fanbase was slowly dwindling, as I suspect, or not, WotC took action to try to change things and attract more interest.
By the way, I take issue with the idea that everything people complained about was a misconception or could be ignored. Some things are minor enough to be ignored. Others, not so much. If something is so silly it ruins people's suspension of disbelief, yet altering it to a sensible form has major consequences, what are people expected to do? Apart from play a different setting, or course. |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6662 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 01:28:10
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Don't forget, there is a lost mythal city in Lantan, Myth Iliscar. Maybe now it's a western version of Myth Nantar.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 01:29:36
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Don't forget, there is a lost mythal city in Lantan, Myth Iliscar. Maybe now it's a western version of Myth Nantar.
-- George Krashos
Which reminds me... I need to finish up my "Music of Lost Myth Iliscar" write-up. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 03 Sep 2010 01:30:07 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4435 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 05:56:09
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
It's funny that you mention Lantan because that was one nation I actually kept in my 4E Realms but now it's a cool combination of Atlantis and Bio-Shock with elements of steam-punk and revolutionary inventions like the Ironclad Warships.
Hmmm, intriguing. Tell me more.
Sure! But first you have to understand why it is the way it is. See, just after the warforged revolution Lantan knew that any sort of attack from an outside source (including a counter-attack from the now revolted Warforged) would spell the down-fall of the island nation so they started to build all sorts of defenses including armored plated boats and the gnomish submersable (who's first cast off sent over 195 gnomes to their watery grave). But despite their first draw-backs, they were gaining success with their inventions. Then one gnomish cleric/artificer named Dingle Blimth was hit by a vision from Gond that something terrible was going to happen to Lantan in the form of a giant tidal wave. So using his influence from the church of Gond, Dingle convinced the main rulers of Lantan (I used a council from different aspect of the nation [farming/produce, technology/advanced sciences, magic/arcane arts, and the divine] to run the nation) to build a Dome made up of LARGE amounts of Glassteel and cold-iron. This would incompass the entire Nation and through the help of magic and what warforged/Gondsman they had left working 24-hrs a day, they completed it a week before the Spellplague hit.
When the tidal wave hit Lantan, the nation was safe though problem did arise such as leaks here and there as well as the materials holding under so much pressure but the dome persisted and kept in tact. After the wave was done, the Water level in the area was about near the top of the dome, immersing most of the nation under water. So the gnomes and other areas of the populace started looking down to the depths for new adventure and avenues for discovery and technology. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2010 : 18:21:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Bluenose
By the way, I take issue with the idea that everything people complained about was a misconception or could be ignored. Some things are minor enough to be ignored. Others, not so much. If something is so silly it ruins people's suspension of disbelief, yet altering it to a sensible form has major consequences, what are people expected to do? Apart from play a different setting, or course.
Fair enough.
I have issue with the Shades, or at least, how they were brought back, so I understand completely. The 'New Netheril' and 'Shadows' have become such an over-arching storyline in the Realms it has become impossible for me to completely ignore them. There are many other thing I don't care for, but that's probably the biggest, pre-plague.
I would like to point out that in some cases further research into the subject matter a person is having trouble digesting often leads to better understanding of that particular piece of lore, which tends to make more sense when viewed in its 'true form', rather then the common misconceptions often applied to the lore (For instance, Mystra's Chosen as the 'JLA" of the Realms).
Man, was that a mouthful... and one hell of a run-on sentence.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 02:15:11
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I was gonna start my own thread, but then I figured I'd just Rez this one since its a related subject matter.
How canon is canon?
As an amateur cartographer I've run into my share of headaches trying to blend the various editions of the Realms into one, cohesive map. The last one I was working on would have been the 'ultimate' blend of the 2e and 3e maps, but I never finished that one (I've changed my style since then).
So now I'm working on another fun little project, and I can't seem to figure out where to put Silverymoon. Apparently, the thing was built on roller-skates, 'cause the designers keep pushing the damn thing around! (hundreds of miles - it used to be in the Moonlands... which kinda made sense...)
It was originally north of of Sundabar, and its been creeping south every since. I'm surprised it isn't somewhere down near Calimshan in 4e. 
So here's my dilemma - I could 'fix it', but should I? Shouldn't maps follow the same rules as the other sources? That the last official publication contains the correct information?
In that other (unfinished) project, the whole point was to put things 'back the way they were', but that's not the point of the new project at all, so shouldn't I just make everything match the 3e Silver Marches map?
Or should I split the difference? That's an option, but then it wouldn't be 'correct' in any edition. Maybe you folks still running 1e/2e Realms can help me - what maps do you use? Do you use the newest maps, even though you are running an older edition? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Oct 2010 06:52:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 02:48:32
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My inclination would be to go with its 1E location. The 3E map got shrunk, and there were things on the 4E map that did not match descriptions. I'd consider the 1E and 2E stuff to be the most accurate, because that era was when they still had a traffic cop keeping everything straight.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 07:01:57
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Since I'm tweaking the Nether Mountains anyway, I suppose shifting Silverymoon to at least the same latitude as Sundabar would be a fair trade-off.
Earlier I had scanned-in The North from both the original 2e campaign map and from the 3e SM book (I had already scanned the SM awhile back, but I wanted a higher resolution this time), and when I over-lapped them it was scary just how far off everything was. When I worked on my last FR map project I was just comparing the last 2e map with the 3e FRCG map, and although there were still huge differences, it was nothing like what I have comparing the very first FR map with one of the last to come out in 3e.
Maybe Alustriel moves her city around every few years to keep the Orcs confused. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2010 : 09:09:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Shouldn't maps follow the same rules as the other sources?
No and Yes.
No, if you're creating something for DMs and players to use. DMs are generally made of stern enough stuff that they can tweak things (like precisely where cities are at on a map and distances between places) without trouble or feeling like some faceless designer was out to hurt the DMs feelings. Players need to accept that sources can be variable; the players are inhabiting the game world through their characters and those characters don't have omniscient geographical world knowledge.
Yes, if you're creating something like an FR Atlas that's several pages of specific information, where that info is lore for the lore fan's sake and you're not trying to fit everything on one poster map that'll be inserted into a gaming product.
Regardless, go with what makes sense to you. |
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"Fire the Canon!" essay
