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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Aug 2010 : 22:35:25
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No list of BAD FR novels is complete without mentioning Red Magic.
For years after, I couldn't even read the word 'Harper' without throwing-up a little in my mouth, and it was the reason why I (STILL) have never read another Harper novel. Only by reading AND re-reading Ed's novels have I finally managed to get past the nausea-inducing ability of that word.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Agreed Wooly. I think Shade would have been much better if they had crashed the floating city at the end of RotA, killed off High Prince Telamont and forced the rest of the Princes into hiding (creating minor power bases throughout Anauroch and the rest of the Realms).
I had a similar idea of re-envisioning them.
I was thinking a small group of them return, ostensibly as a 'scouting party' for the eventual return of the rest. Leave Thultanthar in the Shadowfel, and have 'Shade' be a fortress from there, ported-into the Anauroch. It would be in the same position geographically, but I'd set it on the ground, perhaps in the shadow of an over-hanging cliff-face (you know... out of the SUN!)
I wouldn't have made their entrance so attention-grabbing - that was pure stupidity. Why are beings who thrive on shadows acting so overtly and conspicuous? A new power-group in the Realms is always good, but having them 'sneak-around' is so much more useful then a comic book-style invasion.
Of course, 'sneaky' is only useful in an RPG setting, not a novel-setting. 
Perhaps even have it where Shade was built in ancient times - a place where the Thultantharites could travel to and from the surface - basically a fortress built around a permanent portal. This allows for two things - it having been buried by the desert or whatever (out of the SUN!), and also gives the reason for the return - they finally managed to re-work the magic of the portal so that it would work across the planes. Either way, you get them nicely hidden, and establish that they need to COVERTLY explore modern Faerun and learn all they can - that's just chock full of plot-hooks and adventure potential, at any level. They would also be trying to find any of their lost magic and settlements, which could run them afoul of many other groups, not to mention the few surviving Ancient Netherease (like Larloch and Iouluam).
The subterranean twist is a bit too much like what was done with the Imaskari... but thats another thing that just shouldn't have been done. If you need to bring back a powerful ancient empire, then just do the more-recent Netherease and leave Imaskar in the past, where they belong. The only surviving Imaskari should be Halaster, and perhaps a few 'lost enclaves' on other planes.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Aug 2010 03:50:58 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 04:23:33
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I've honestly grown tired and sick defending Shade (starting with an argument with Wooly to I don't know who else, other than you). Sometimes we need to pause and think "why is it that despite the fact we hate something so profoundly it still exists and many still support it?" There are things that (we simply have to accept) exist for reasons sometimes far more complex than we can fathom, or sometimes we understand but just choose to deny... WotC continues to use the Shadovar most probably because of Paul's success in his novels featuring the said villains, and ultimately because A LOT of people still buy books and products that put them in the center stage. I'd like to mention the case of the elves (not the drow, and those in the Realms only, for I sort of like the elves in Feist's Midkemia and Rowling's world of Harry). I think I've expressed it often enough how I despise those haughty creatures. But I gave up the on the idea that there'll be a day when they will (for reasons even Ao doesn't know) disappear totally from Toril, because a lot of people "like" and support them. To put it quite simply, we live in a free world, and most often, (if not always) the majority's voice reigns supreme.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 06:01:37
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I've honestly grown tired and sick defending Shade (starting with an argument with Wooly to I don't know who else, other than you). Sometimes we need to pause and think "why is it that despite the fact we hate something so profoundly it still exists and many still support it?" There are things that (we simply have to accept) exist for reasons sometimes far more complex than we can fathom, or sometimes we understand but just choose to deny... WotC continues to use the Shadovar most probably because of Paul's success in his novels featuring the said villains, and ultimately because A LOT of people still buy books and products that put them in the center stage. I'd like to mention the case of the elves (not the drow, and those in the Realms only, for I sort of like the elves in Feist's Midkemia and Rowling's world of Harry). I think I've expressed it often enough how I despise those haughty creatures. But I gave up the on the idea that there'll be a day when they will (for reasons even Ao doesn't know) disappear totally from Toril, because a lot of people "like" and support them. To put it quite simply, we live in a free world, and most often, (if not always) the majority's voice reigns supreme.
I don't hate Shade.... I simply think their return was not handled nearly as well as it could have been, and that they've spent too much time in the spotlight since then. Good villains, but despite much of the 3E material, not the only villains the Realms has to offer. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 07:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I've honestly grown tired and sick defending Shade (starting with an argument with Wooly to I don't know who else, other than you). Sometimes we need to pause and think "why is it that despite the fact we hate something so profoundly it still exists and many still support it?" There are things that (we simply have to accept) exist for reasons sometimes far more complex than we can fathom, or sometimes we understand but just choose to deny... WotC continues to use the Shadovar most probably because of Paul's success in his novels featuring the said villains, and ultimately because A LOT of people still buy books and products that put them in the center stage. I'd like to mention the case of the elves (not the drow, and those in the Realms only, for I sort of like the elves in Feist's Midkemia and Rowling's world of Harry). I think I've expressed it often enough how I despise those haughty creatures. But I gave up the on the idea that there'll be a day when they will (for reasons even Ao doesn't know) disappear totally from Toril, because a lot of people "like" and support them. To put it quite simply, we live in a free world, and most often, (if not always) the majority's voice reigns supreme.
I don't hate Shade.... I simply think their return was not handled nearly as well as it could have been, and that they've spent too much time in the spotlight since then. Good villains, but despite much of the 3E material, not the only villains the Realms has to offer.
Wooly has the right of it.
I've don't have any problem with the Shade Enclave. I'm just as much a lover of "shadow this" and "shadow that" as the next Realms fan. Though, I handled their return in a much more alternate fashion, than was portrayed in the official setting -- to connect much more effectively with past Realmslore that I'd crafted for my campaigns.
My main line of disappointed reasoning with the Shadovar exists, mostly because they tended to be overemphasised as the BBEG of the Realms -- especially during the latter days of 3e. Kinda like the Word of Blake in BattleTech. There are other evils that deserve just as much recognition, after all. Which is why I'm thankful, partly, for the changes that have come with the post-Spellplague Realms. Other threats -- both old and new -- are gaining momentum once again.  |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 00:30:49
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I've honestly grown tired and sick defending Shade (starting with an argument with Wooly to I don't know who else, other than you). Sometimes we need to pause and think "why is it that despite the fact we hate something so profoundly it still exists and many still support it?" There are things that (we simply have to accept) exist for reasons sometimes far more complex than we can fathom, or sometimes we understand but just choose to deny... WotC continues to use the Shadovar most probably because of Paul's success in his novels featuring the said villains, and ultimately because A LOT of people still buy books and products that put them in the center stage. I'd like to mention the case of the elves (not the drow, and those in the Realms only, for I sort of like the elves in Feist's Midkemia and Rowling's world of Harry). I think I've expressed it often enough how I despise those haughty creatures. But I gave up the on the idea that there'll be a day when they will (for reasons even Ao doesn't know) disappear totally from Toril, because a lot of people "like" and support them. To put it quite simply, we live in a free world, and most often, (if not always) the majority's voice reigns supreme.
If ur tired of defending them, then don't.
Simply let others state their opinions without commenting.
I think u'll see that its easier to get along with others
round here if u do.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 12:58:53
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I've honestly grown tired and sick defending Shade (starting with an argument with Wooly to I don't know who else, other than you). Sometimes we need to pause and think "why is it that despite the fact we hate something so profoundly it still exists and many still support it?" There are things that (we simply have to accept) exist for reasons sometimes far more complex than we can fathom, or sometimes we understand but just choose to deny... WotC continues to use the Shadovar most probably because of Paul's success in his novels featuring the said villains, and ultimately because A LOT of people still buy books and products that put them in the center stage. I'd like to mention the case of the elves (not the drow, and those in the Realms only, for I sort of like the elves in Feist's Midkemia and Rowling's world of Harry). I think I've expressed it often enough how I despise those haughty creatures. But I gave up the on the idea that there'll be a day when they will (for reasons even Ao doesn't know) disappear totally from Toril, because a lot of people "like" and support them. To put it quite simply, we live in a free world, and most often, (if not always) the majority's voice reigns supreme.
If ur tired of defending them, then don't.
Simply let others state their opinions without commenting.
I think u'll see that its easier to get along with others
round here if u do.
My thoughts exactly. Though sometimes the "temptation" to comment wins over.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 04:01:23
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I'm completely with Wooly, Sage, and others on this one, and if I did use them in some of my sessions, I would use them as I described above - as a new, INCONSPICUOUS threat, recently returned in SMALL NUMBERS in Anauroch in a HIDDEN FORTRESS.
Just because I don't care for the way they were handled in canon doesn't mean I won't find them useful at some point.
A cupful of Shadow is cool - an oil-tanker full not so much. Like all things in life, moderation is key.
The same goes for Aboleths, or Drow, or any other threat. You can set an entire campaign around a single threat, but not an entire setting - it loses its re-playability that way. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 10:53:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly
I don't hate Shade.... I simply think their return was not handled nearly as well as it could have been, and that they've spent too much time in the spotlight since then. Good villains, but despite much of the 3E material, not the only villains the Realms has to offer.
Hating the deed (the Shadovar's countless achievements) while sparing the actor (the Shadovar themselves)? One renowned linguist, Noam Chomsky, if I remember it right, said this is a fallacy of appeal to belief . “No one can separate the deed from its doer because it can't exist without the latter. And saying the separation is possible is inviting the idea that there is a middle stand --- which is irrevocably nonexistent.” I am not saying you are wrong, but consider it carefully. You either hate, or to put it mildly, dislike the Shadovar or like them.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm completely with Wooly, Sage, and others on this one, and if I did use them in some of my sessions, I would use them as I described above - as a new, INCONSPICUOUS threat, recently returned in SMALL NUMBERS in Anauroch in a HIDDEN FORTRESS.
The Red Wizards are conspicuous themselves. And no one (or perhaps so few) have problems with that. In fact, I like them for it. There are already the Zhents and their cockroach leader, Manshoon, the Twisted Rune, and Larloch himself in charge of the “clandestine” evil plots spanning the entire Realms. Bringing a conspicuous and immediate threat is a welcome change.
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Edited by - Dennis on 11 Aug 2010 11:43:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 11:22:39
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly
I don't hate Shade.... I simply think their return was not handled nearly as well as it could have been, and that they've spent too much time in the spotlight since then. Good villains, but despite much of the 3E material, not the only villains the Realms has to offer.
Hating the deed (the Shadovar's countless achievements) while sparing the actor (the Shadovar themselves)? One renowned linguist, Noam Chomsky, if I remember it right, said this is a fallacy of appeal to belief . “No one can separate the deed from the its doer because it can't exist without the latter. And saying the separation is possible is inviting the idea that there is a middle stand --- which is irrevocably nonexistent.” I am not saying you are wrong, but consider it carefully. You either hate, or to put it mildly, dislike the Shadovar or like them.
I'm not sure what your point is... The Shades themselves, and their city, are to me a nifty idea. I think the fact that they returned to the Realms is also nifty. What I don't like is any aspect of how they returned (the RotA trilogy was bad), or the fact that they immediately became the only evil threat in the Realms that got any attention.
I don't see a problem with liking the concept of the Shades, without liking the way they were (mis-)used by WotC. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2010 : 12:04:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly
I don't hate Shade.... I simply think their return was not handled nearly as well as it could have been, and that they've spent too much time in the spotlight since then. Good villains, but despite much of the 3E material, not the only villains the Realms has to offer.
Hating the deed (the Shadovar's countless achievements) while sparing the actor (the Shadovar themselves)? One renowned linguist, Noam Chomsky, if I remember it right, said this is a fallacy of appeal to belief . “No one can separate the deed from its doer because it can't exist without the latter. And saying the separation is possible is inviting the idea that there is a middle stand --- which is irrevocably nonexistent.” I am not saying you are wrong, but consider it carefully. You either hate, or to put it mildly, dislike the Shadovar or like them.
I'm not sure what your point is... The Shades themselves, and their city, are to me a nifty idea. I think the fact that they returned to the Realms is also nifty. What I don't like is any aspect of how they returned (the RotA trilogy was bad), or the fact that they immediately became the only evil threat in the Realms that got any attention.
I don't see a problem with liking the concept of the Shades, without liking the way they were (mis-)used by WotC.
You bring yet another issue: possibility versus actuality. Sure, you can like the concept of Shades, yet hate the way they are used by WotC. Remember, what defines a character is the ACTUAL way it is used, not the possible one. The Shades can be inconspicuous bad asses. They can be skulking in a gods-forsaken hole in the great desert. They can be puny servants of Larloch or insignificant allies of the Twisted Rune. All these and more, things that they can possibly do or become. But what always matters is the exact, actual nature of their existence, the very way they are used in the past and present novels. And this actuality is MY point. You either hate the Shades, or like them. There can never be a middle stand.
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Edited by - Dennis on 11 Aug 2010 12:53:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 00:28:53
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly
I don't hate Shade.... I simply think their return was not handled nearly as well as it could have been, and that they've spent too much time in the spotlight since then. Good villains, but despite much of the 3E material, not the only villains the Realms has to offer.
Hating the deed (the Shadovar's countless achievements) while sparing the actor (the Shadovar themselves)? One renowned linguist, Noam Chomsky, if I remember it right, said this is a fallacy of appeal to belief . “No one can separate the deed from its doer because it can't exist without the latter. And saying the separation is possible is inviting the idea that there is a middle stand --- which is irrevocably nonexistent.” I am not saying you are wrong, but consider it carefully. You either hate, or to put it mildly, dislike the Shadovar or like them.
I'm not sure what your point is... The Shades themselves, and their city, are to me a nifty idea. I think the fact that they returned to the Realms is also nifty. What I don't like is any aspect of how they returned (the RotA trilogy was bad), or the fact that they immediately became the only evil threat in the Realms that got any attention.
I don't see a problem with liking the concept of the Shades, without liking the way they were (mis-)used by WotC.
You bring yet another issue: possibility versus actuality. Sure, you can like the concept of Shades, yet hate the way they are used by WotC. Remember, what defines a character is the ACTUAL way it is used, not the possible one. The Shades can be inconspicuous bad asses. They can be skulking in a gods-forsaken hole in the great desert. They can be puny servants of Larloch or insignificant allies of the Twisted Rune. All these and more, things that they can possibly do or become. But what always matters is the exact, actual nature of their existence, the very way they are used in the past and present novels. And this actuality is MY point. You either hate the Shades, or like them. There can never be a middle stand.
I disagree. I don't hate them, but since I dislike how they were used, I'm not fond of them. I am, therefore, pretty much neutral on the topic of Shades. Seems like a middle stand to me. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 01:22:38
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
You bring yet another issue: possibility versus actuality. Sure, you can like the concept of Shades, yet hate the way they are used by WotC. Remember, what defines a character is the ACTUAL way it is used, not the possible one. The Shades can be inconspicuous bad asses. They can be skulking in a gods-forsaken hole in the great desert. They can be puny servants of Larloch or insignificant allies of the Twisted Rune. All these and more, things that they can possibly do or become. But what always matters is the exact, actual nature of their existence, the very way they are used in the past and present novels. And this actuality is MY point. You either hate the Shades, or like them. There can never be a middle stand.
Of course there can. Remember, how a race or location or historical point is presented in the official Realms, is only largely a "possibility" for your home campaigns. You can use it as it has been published, or modify it according to the internal dynamics and histories of your own Realms campaigns. Which is what I've done with the Shade. I like the Shade, but dislike the way they've been handled in the official Realms. However, I love the way I've introduced and later utilised them in MY Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 01:23:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly
I don't hate Shade.... I simply think their return was not handled nearly as well as it could have been, and that they've spent too much time in the spotlight since then. Good villains, but despite much of the 3E material, not the only villains the Realms has to offer.
Hating the deed (the Shadovar's countless achievements) while sparing the actor (the Shadovar themselves)? One renowned linguist, Noam Chomsky, if I remember it right, said this is a fallacy of appeal to belief . “No one can separate the deed from its doer because it can't exist without the latter. And saying the separation is possible is inviting the idea that there is a middle stand --- which is irrevocably nonexistent.” I am not saying you are wrong, but consider it carefully. You either hate, or to put it mildly, dislike the Shadovar or like them.
I'm not sure what your point is... The Shades themselves, and their city, are to me a nifty idea. I think the fact that they returned to the Realms is also nifty. What I don't like is any aspect of how they returned (the RotA trilogy was bad), or the fact that they immediately became the only evil threat in the Realms that got any attention.
I don't see a problem with liking the concept of the Shades, without liking the way they were (mis-)used by WotC.
You bring yet another issue: possibility versus actuality. Sure, you can like the concept of Shades, yet hate the way they are used by WotC. Remember, what defines a character is the ACTUAL way it is used, not the possible one. The Shades can be inconspicuous bad asses. They can be skulking in a gods-forsaken hole in the great desert. They can be puny servants of Larloch or insignificant allies of the Twisted Rune. All these and more, things that they can possibly do or become. But what always matters is the exact, actual nature of their existence, the very way they are used in the past and present novels. And this actuality is MY point. You either hate the Shades, or like them. There can never be a middle stand.
I disagree. I don't hate them, but since I dislike how they were used, I'm not fond of them. I am, therefore, pretty much neutral on the topic of Shades. Seems like a middle stand to me.
You still fail or REFUSE to grapple even a minuscule shred of understanding of my prior posts, which I stated quite plainly that even a blind kobold can comprehend. Thus, I see no reason to continue arguing. I rest my case.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36793 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 02:32:09
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
You still fail or REFUSE to grapple even a minuscule shred of understanding of my prior posts, which I stated quite plainly that even a blind kobold can comprehend. Thus, I see no reason to continue arguing. I rest my case.
Ironically, you do the same. How can regard for something exist only at poles and not in the middle? That flies in the face of everything I've ever observed about people.
Don't agree with my opinion if you don't want -- but don't be insulting about it, and don't tell me it's not possible to feel that way. I don't hate Shade, but I'm not a fan of them, either. It's a valid opinion, and it is my opinion.. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Aug 2010 02:32:48 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3566 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 02:48:29
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I don't hate Shade, in fact I kinda like .
But you cannot credit the great success of Paul's Twilight War to the shadower or shade.
I bought them for the same reasons 95% of people did.
1. Erevis Cale
2. Drasek Riven
3. Paul S. Kemp
4. Erevis Cale
5. Riven's Dog's
6. Erevis Cale
7. Will any Uskevrens show up?
8. Erevis Cale
9. Will Tazi show up?
10. What's Shade up to in Sembia and Will Telamont and his spawn show up?
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 12 Aug 2010 02:50:29 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 02:55:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I don't hate Shade, in fact I kinda like .
But you cannot credit the great success of Paul's Twilight War to the shadower or shade.
I bought them for the same reasons 95% of people did.
1. Erevis Cale
2. Drasek Riven
3. Paul S. Kemp
4. Erevis Cale
5. Riven's Dog's
6. Erevis Cale
7. Will any Uskevrens show up?
8. Erevis Cale
9. Will Tazi show up?
10. What's Shade up to in Sembia and Will Telamont and his spawn show up?
Don't forget Erevis Cale, he's kinda badass. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 03:05:57
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
7. Will any Uskevrens show up?
Heh. I've been so intrigued by the lesser-portrayed Uskevrens that I've actually began to plot out a few details of my own. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 03:09:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
You bring yet another issue: possibility versus actuality. Sure, you can like the concept of Shades, yet hate the way they are used by WotC. Remember, what defines a character is the ACTUAL way it is used, not the possible one. The Shades can be inconspicuous bad asses. They can be skulking in a gods-forsaken hole in the great desert. They can be puny servants of Larloch or insignificant allies of the Twisted Rune. All these and more, things that they can possibly do or become. But what always matters is the exact, actual nature of their existence, the very way they are used in the past and present novels. And this actuality is MY point. You either hate the Shades, or like them. There can never be a middle stand.
Of course there can. Remember, how a race or location or historical point is presented in the official Realms, is only largely a "possibility" for your home campaigns. You can use it as it has been published, or modify it according to the internal dynamics and histories of your own Realms campaigns. Which is what I've done with the Shade. I like the Shade, but dislike the way they've been handled in the official Realms. However, I love the way I've introduced and later utilised them in MY Realms.
Here lies our big difference. I don't play the games. There's no way I can find time for it with all my reading (not just FR books, of course), writing for mags and newspaper, and finishing my second novel (and scouring the entire world to find ways to torture my editor ---no, I like her (and her cute dog).. Even if I can, I don't think I'd be doing so for long, because the pull to read and write is much stronger in me. I even gave up DotA.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 03:17:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I don't hate Shade, in fact I kinda like .
But you cannot credit the great success of Paul's Twilight War to the shadower or shade.
Apparently, not full credit, as that would be preposterous; in the same way as Tam cannot be given full credit for the success of HL trilogy. But like Tam in HL, the Shadovar are largely contributory to the success of TW.
They're the primary reason I bought the books, other than Riven's dogs of course.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 12 Aug 2010 03:20:08 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 03:20:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Of course there can. Remember, how a race or location or historical point is presented in the official Realms, is only largely a "possibility" for your home campaigns. You can use it as it has been published, or modify it according to the internal dynamics and histories of your own Realms campaigns. Which is what I've done with the Shade. I like the Shade, but dislike the way they've been handled in the official Realms. However, I love the way I've introduced and later utilised them in MY Realms.
I'd be interested to know how exactly you handled the Shades in your campaign. Personally, in my campaign that lasted a few years (and the PCs were level 25+) I created an all-out war between the North and the Shades after their return, which ended in the PCs taking the city for themselves and most of the Shades (including Telamont and his sons) to flee back in the shadow plane. They now have various outposts and a spy network across the Realms. A few Shades decided to stay in peace and still live in the city, renamed to its former name Thulthantar, along those who lost their home in the war.
Probably not the best way to handle it, but it worked well, and it was interesting to reshape the city under the rule of our characters. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 09:50:16
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
You bring yet another issue: possibility versus actuality. Sure, you can like the concept of Shades, yet hate the way they are used by WotC. Remember, what defines a character is the ACTUAL way it is used, not the possible one. The Shades can be inconspicuous bad asses. They can be skulking in a gods-forsaken hole in the great desert. They can be puny servants of Larloch or insignificant allies of the Twisted Rune. All these and more, things that they can possibly do or become. But what always matters is the exact, actual nature of their existence, the very way they are used in the past and present novels. And this actuality is MY point. You either hate the Shades, or like them. There can never be a middle stand.
Of course there can. Remember, how a race or location or historical point is presented in the official Realms, is only largely a "possibility" for your home campaigns. You can use it as it has been published, or modify it according to the internal dynamics and histories of your own Realms campaigns. Which is what I've done with the Shade. I like the Shade, but dislike the way they've been handled in the official Realms. However, I love the way I've introduced and later utilised them in MY Realms.
Here lies our big difference. I don't play the games. There's no way I can find time for it with all my reading (not just FR books, of course), writing for mags and newspaper, and finishing my second novel (and scouring the entire world to find ways to torture my editor---no, I like her (and her cute dog).. Even if I can, I don't think I'd be doing so for long, because the pull to read and write is much stronger in me. I even gave up DotA.
The game is often an important reason to like/dislike ideas. What works in your groups games naturally works in your campaigns naturally becomes important and meaningful, that which doesn't work often goes out the window. That's me with Shade. It has nothing to do with hate, its a case of not using them and therefore having no interest in them at all. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:25:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
You bring yet another issue: possibility versus actuality. Sure, you can like the concept of Shades, yet hate the way they are used by WotC. Remember, what defines a character is the ACTUAL way it is used, not the possible one. The Shades can be inconspicuous bad asses. They can be skulking in a gods-forsaken hole in the great desert. They can be puny servants of Larloch or insignificant allies of the Twisted Rune. All these and more, things that they can possibly do or become. But what always matters is the exact, actual nature of their existence, the very way they are used in the past and present novels. And this actuality is MY point. You either hate the Shades, or like them. There can never be a middle stand.
Of course there can. Remember, how a race or location or historical point is presented in the official Realms, is only largely a "possibility" for your home campaigns. You can use it as it has been published, or modify it according to the internal dynamics and histories of your own Realms campaigns. Which is what I've done with the Shade. I like the Shade, but dislike the way they've been handled in the official Realms. However, I love the way I've introduced and later utilised them in MY Realms.
Here lies our big difference. I don't play the games. There's no way I can find time for it with all my reading (not just FR books, of course), writing for mags and newspaper, and finishing my second novel (and scouring the entire world to find ways to torture my editor---no, I like her (and her cute dog).. Even if I can, I don't think I'd be doing so for long, because the pull to read and write is much stronger in me. I even gave up DotA.
The game is often an important reason to like/dislike ideas. What works in your groups games naturally works in your campaigns naturally becomes important and meaningful, that which doesn't work often goes out the window. That's me with Shade. It has nothing to do with hate, its a case of not using them and therefore having no interest in them at all.
To be blunt, I care not at all about the games, as much as I don't care about the Riftwar games even though I very much like Feist's entire Riftwar Cycle (from Magician to At the Gates of Darkness). That's why all my arguments are based on what I read from FR novels. Hence, the "possibility" that Sage and Wooly pointed out is nonexistent as far as the books are concerned. What is "actual" is, obviously, that which was already written and published.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 12 Aug 2010 10:31:08 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:34:15
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
To be blunt, I care not at all about the games, as much as I don't care about the Riftwar games even though I very much like Feist's entire Riftwar Cycle (from Magician to At the Gates of Darkness). That's why all my arguments are based on what I read from FR novels. Hence, the "possibility" that Sage and Wooly pointed out is nonexistent as far as the books are concerned. What is "actual" is, obviously, that which was already written and published.
And from a gaming view the only thing that is actual is the possibility for existence. But its just two different ways at looking at a setting.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 23:24:09
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The Red Wizards are conspicuous themselves. And no one (or perhaps so few) have problems with that. In fact, I like them for it. There are already the Zhents and their cockroach leader, Manshoon, the Twisted Rune, and Larloch himself in charge of the “clandestine” evil plots spanning the entire Realms. Bringing a conspicuous and immediate threat is a welcome change.
The Realms are based on the premise of "wheels within wheels" and "deeper secrets buried beneath newer ones". The balance Ed achieved is very hard to perceive unless you've read nearly everything about the Realms - it is an intricate dance, wherein the dancers themselves know not what lies at the end of the music.
This is why Lolth thrives in FR, more-so then any other setting. Not only were her favored children created therein, but the entire socio-political landscape is a giant tangled web of alliances & deceit, backstabs & back-room dealings, clan feuds & clandestine organizations. It is a hodge-podge of government agents and free agents, heroes and slavers, Wizards and warrior-kings. It is the Realms... and it is complicated...
The Red Wizards are the exception that proves the rule. For every Zhent agent unmasked, there are a dozen more in any given locale folks don't know about. The same could be said of the Harpers. There is no need for yet-another uber-powerful, conspicuous group of Mages in the Realms - the Thayans are cool because they are so different then the others... and yet they have secret-agents and act covertly a good deal of the time as well.
Giant explosions and Earth-shattering magics are the stuff of Hollywood and comic-books, not a mature RPG setting. Subtlety wins the day in the Forgotten Realms, not a sledgehammer.
I'm not saying there is no place for such things - there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of other settings that are not nearly so detailed, and they rely on those cheap 'parlor tricks' to wow the kiddies. There is definitely an audience for them - otherwise movies like Transformers and other Michael-Bayisms wouldn't be box-office hits. The Realms, however, are like one of those classy foreign films that appeals to a select few that can appreciate it's elegance.
So yeah, I find the hidden bad guys far more useful to me as a DM - groups that have been over-used in novels are nearly worthless to me. I want to surprise my players, no induce boredom. Shadow has been beaten to death - seems you can't even get a novel published anymore if it doesn't have the word in the title. And the Shadowvar aren't the only group guilty of this - I find the Harpers, Zhents, and Red Wizards all equally falling into the 'reheated leftovers' category.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2010 00:10:13 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 01:29:14
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Hence, the "possibility" that Sage and Wooly pointed out is nonexistent as far as the books are concerned. What is "actual" is, obviously, that which was already written and published.
Not really. Because you're forgetting the fact that the FORGOTTEN REALMS is both a novel and RPG line. So in terms of the RPG, what is "actual," is what you, as the DM, decides.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 03:05:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Hence, the "possibility" that Sage and Wooly pointed out is nonexistent as far as the books are concerned. What is "actual" is, obviously, that which was already written and published.
Not really. Because you're forgetting the fact that the FORGOTTEN REALMS is both a novel and RPG line. So in terms of the RPG, what is "actual," is what you, as the DM, decides.
I think he is saying that you have the way the novels portray people/events, and that is basically a historical record, and then you have the RPG which can be a lot of things and because of that it can't be viewed as "factual" (so to speak). Of course the RPG and the novels have to at least somewhat resemble each other. If you ("you" being anyone who uses a differing version of the Realms in your game) have a different version that's fine, but it isn't the version. The official version is the one he cares about and the rest are basically fan fiction (and there's nothing wrong with that). So, to my mind, once you begin seriously deviating from the "established" ideas what you like is your version and not the idea itself. The Shadovar are what they are. They aren't a scattered, loosely tied group of Netherese. They aren't a group whose Enclave crashed at the end of RotA. They aren't the other ideas proposed for use at home. So, to make them these other things is to change what they are and at that point what you are enjoying is your own creativity and not so much the original idea (and again, there's nothing wrong with that, creativity is a great quality for people to have and it should be celebrated more). As dennis has stated, nothing beyond the novel versions matter to him. I'm in a similar boat in that I don't play the RPG (beyond the video games) so I don't create my own lore and to me the lore is the printed word so that's the only version I really care about. So, solely speaking of the books, there is no "possibility". There is only what is.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Giant explosions and Earth-shattering magics are the stuff of Hollywood and comic-books, not a mature RPG setting. Subtlety wins the day in the Forgotten Realms, not a sledgehammer.
I'm not saying there is no place for such things - there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of other settings that are not nearly so detailed, and they rely on those cheap 'parlor tricks' to wow the kiddies. There is definitely an audience for them - otherwise movies like Transformers and other Michael-Bayisms wouldn't be box-office hits. The Realms, however, are like one of those classy foreign films that appeals to a select few that can appreciate it's elegance.
Let's not try to make the Realms out to be more than it is, or insult the intelligence of people who enjoy what you clearly view as lesser entertainment. The Realms is a fine setting with good-to-great books and massively wasted potential to expand (into other mediums), but high art it is not. It has employed these cheap parlor tricks before and will do so again, in canon.
As for subtelty vs sledgehammer, why not both? Seriously, why not? Tell but don't show only works for so long. At some point powerful folks have to butt heads and chunks of territory get destroyed. Otherwise, what use is their power? And if it has no use, then what is the point of having it in the first place and instead just turn the books into normal political thrillers? It would be like a Superman movie that talks about his powers but he never uses them and instead engages in a chess match with Lex (kind of like Superman Returns, minus the chess match and adding a huge dose of needless emo baggage). It worked for someone like Lovecraft who didn't have an ongoing story or a very large number of novels all occuring in the same world. At some point most people get tired of hearing what people can do and what to see them actually do something otherwise they wonder why anyone (much less everyone) fears/honors/whatever these people. That's where someone like the Shadovar come in. They're powerful enough (and set up an incident to distract everyone) so that they don't have to play political games and hide in the shadows, so why should they? Their goal is empire, not covert control. They want to rule like they used to and they want people to know who's running the show. Leave it to schemers to scheme. Empires set out to conquer and rule, not skulk. The Shadovar's actions fit their character and goals.
There are levels of power that scheming and plotting can't overcome. If someone has this kind of power, why would they engage in intrigue (and possibly give their opponents a real chance at victory) instead of simply steamrolling them (where they are almost assured victory)? Intrigue is fine, in doses. I like intrigue and scheming. I also like a setting with magic, dragons, and armies to have things go boom every now and then. The more spectacular the better. Otherwise, there is no point in setting the intrigue in that setting. It's a political thriller with tremendous wasted potential. I want the entire experience which includes things like change, open conflict of armies and archmages, sudden and radical changes to the political landscape via armed conflict, and external and internal threats on a serious scale and not just a delicate web of intrigue. I want to see the web shattered every now and then with all the planners and schemers shown that they can't plan for everything and that there are threats that can plow through their webs and there's nothing they can do about it. Upset the status quo and shake things up. It should be a dynamic, evolving world and that includes the occasional instances of violent and sudden change.
I should point out that occasional is all the more frequent it should be (unless it's some type of domino effect I suppose). |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31716 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 03:52:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Hence, the "possibility" that Sage and Wooly pointed out is nonexistent as far as the books are concerned. What is "actual" is, obviously, that which was already written and published.
Not really. Because you're forgetting the fact that the FORGOTTEN REALMS is both a novel and RPG line. So in terms of the RPG, what is "actual," is what you, as the DM, decides.
I think he is saying that you have the way the novels portray people/events, and that is basically a historical record, and then you have the RPG which can be a lot of things and because of that it can't be viewed as "factual" (so to speak).
True. However, in terms of what Dennis was deeming as a "non-existent" possibility is slightly incorrect. What is "actual" in terms of Realmslore for the individual, is what you, as either the DM of an RPG campaign set in the Realms, or as a reader of Realms fiction, wish it to be. Ed built this particular dynamic right into the Realms, as the Ol' Grey Box tell us. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 09:31:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Hence, the "possibility" that Sage and Wooly pointed out is nonexistent as far as the books are concerned. What is "actual" is, obviously, that which was already written and published.
Not really. Because you're forgetting the fact that the FORGOTTEN REALMS is both a novel and RPG line. So in terms of the RPG, what is "actual," is what you, as the DM, decides.
I think he is saying that you have the way the novels portray people/events, and that is basically a historical record, and then you have the RPG which can be a lot of things and because of that it can't be viewed as "factual" (so to speak). Of course the RPG and the novels have to at least somewhat resemble each other. If you ("you" being anyone who uses a differing version of the Realms in your game) have a different version that's fine, but it isn't the version. The official version is the one he cares about and the rest are basically fan fiction (and there's nothing wrong with that). So, to my mind, once you begin seriously deviating from the "established" ideas what you like is your version and not the idea itself.
As the Realms was intended to be a Rpg setting you might as well then call the novels fanfiction based on the setting. The Realms were created to change and evolve by gaming and by gaming products. Changed much by the users themselves. The novels tie in and people may enjoy them without gaming (which Dennis does and I have no problem with, but a Realms discussions usually includes (unless stated) both the novel and gaming aspect), but it is not a situation where the novels are the "true" Realms and everything else is a personal little diversion on the side with less value. Many of the novels were takes on what was suggested through rpg products and in many cases took up threads that introduced years before, with the author in question giving his view of how it could work. Does this lessen the value of the novel author? Absolutely not, but it is also a fact that a hell of a lot of people has been doing the same "Realmswork" for years. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 10:53:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Hence, the "possibility" that Sage and Wooly pointed out is nonexistent as far as the books are concerned. What is "actual" is, obviously, that which was already written and published.
Not really. Because you're forgetting the fact that the FORGOTTEN REALMS is both a novel and RPG line. So in terms of the RPG, what is "actual," is what you, as the DM, decides.
I think he is saying that you have the way the novels portray people/events, and that is basically a historical record, and then you have the RPG which can be a lot of things and because of that it can't be viewed as "factual" (so to speak). Of course the RPG and the novels have to at least somewhat resemble each other. If you ("you" being anyone who uses a differing version of the Realms in your game) have a different version that's fine, but it isn't the version. The official version is the one he cares about and the rest are basically fan fiction (and there's nothing wrong with that). So, to my mind, once you begin seriously deviating from the "established" ideas what you like is your version and not the idea itself. The Shadovar are what they are. They aren't a scattered, loosely tied group of Netherese. They aren't a group whose Enclave crashed at the end of RotA. They aren't the other ideas proposed for use at home. So, to make them these other things is to change what they are and at that point what you are enjoying is your own creativity and not so much the original idea (and again, there's nothing wrong with that, creativity is a great quality for people to have and it should be celebrated more). As dennis has stated, nothing beyond the novel versions matter to him. I'm in a similar boat in that I don't play the RPG (beyond the video games) so I don't create my own lore and to me the lore is the printed word so that's the only version I really care about. So, solely speaking of the books, there is no "possibility". There is only what is.
Very well said. The 'possibility' being nonexistent is solely on the context of the novels.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Giant explosions and Earth-shattering magics are the stuff of Hollywood and comic-books, not a mature RPG setting. Subtlety wins the day in the Forgotten Realms, not a sledgehammer.
I'm not saying there is no place for such things - there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of other settings that are not nearly so detailed, and they rely on those cheap 'parlor tricks' to wow the kiddies. There is definitely an audience for them - otherwise movies like Transformers and other Michael-Bayisms wouldn't be box-office hits. The Realms, however, are like one of those classy foreign films that appeals to a select few that can appreciate it's elegance.
Let's not try to make the Realms out to be more than it is, or insult the intelligence of people who enjoy what you clearly view as lesser entertainment. The Realms is a fine setting with good-to-great books and massively wasted potential to expand (into other mediums), but high art it is not. It has employed these cheap parlor tricks before and will do so again, in canon.
Good point. We have to remember this: If we don't like something, then we don't. But we shouldn't insinuate that people who prefer what we don't are “like this or that.” I for one have something I really hate in the Realms: the elves. But did I ever say or imply that those who like these silly, haughty creatures are “like this or that”?
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 13 Aug 2010 11:37:07 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 11:11:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The Red Wizards are conspicuous themselves. And no one (or perhaps so few) have problems with that. In fact, I like them for it. There are already the Zhents and their cockroach leader, Manshoon, the Twisted Rune, and Larloch himself in charge of the “clandestine” evil plots spanning the entire Realms. Bringing a conspicuous and immediate threat is a welcome change.
The Realms are based on the premise of "wheels within wheels" and "deeper secrets buried beneath newer ones". The balance Ed achieved is very hard to perceive unless you've read nearly everything about the Realms - it is an intricate dance, wherein the dancers themselves know not what lies at the end of the music.
This is why Lolth thrives in FR, more-so then any other setting. Not only were her favored children created therein, but the entire socio-political landscape is a giant tangled web of alliances & deceit, backstabs & back-room dealings, clan feuds & clandestine organizations. It is a hodge-podge of government agents and free agents, heroes and slavers, Wizards and warrior-kings. It is the Realms... and it is complicated...
The Red Wizards are the exception that proves the rule. For every Zhent agent unmasked, there are a dozen more in any given locale folks don't know about. The same could be said of the Harpers. There is no need for yet-another uber-powerful, conspicuous group of Mages in the Realms - the Thayans are cool because they are so different then the others... and yet they have secret-agents and act covertly a good deal of the time as well.
Giant explosions and Earth-shattering magics are the stuff of Hollywood and comic-books, not a mature RPG setting. Subtlety wins the day in the Forgotten Realms, not a sledgehammer.
I'm not saying there is no place for such things - there are dozens, perhaps hundreds, of other settings that are not nearly so detailed, and they rely on those cheap 'parlor tricks' to wow the kiddies. There is definitely an audience for them - otherwise movies like Transformers and other Michael-Bayisms wouldn't be box-office hits. The Realms, however, are like one of those classy foreign films that appeals to a select few that can appreciate it's elegance.
So yeah, I find the hidden bad guys far more useful to me as a DM - groups that have been over-used in novels are nearly worthless to me. I want to surprise my players, no induce boredom. Shadow has been beaten to death - seems you can't even get a novel published anymore if it doesn't have the word in the title. And the Shadowvar aren't the only group guilty of this - I find the Harpers, Zhents, and Red Wizards all equally falling into the 'reheated leftovers' category.
Of all the things you mentioned, at least I found something we both agree on: the highlighted sentence. And how about the rest? Well, I wouldn't want Wooly and Sage to seal this topic; so I'd rather not say wonderful things about your equally wonderful claims.
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 13 Aug 2010 15:01:36 |
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The Netheril Trilogy: Expanded Edition
