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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 05:42:15
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There already are quite a number of stand-alone series: The Wizards, The Fighters, The Harpers, The Nobles, The Cities, The Dungeons, The Citadels....
What about The Villains?
I think it's interesting and “enlightening” to plunge headfirst to the minds of the greatest villains in the Realms, know what truly make them evil, their childhood, their multi-layered plans, their rise to power, their unfortunate fall, their betrayals, their disappointments, their promise to rise again...
Should there be The Villains series, who do you think must be in them? How many books should comprise the series? Must they be limited only to old villains? New? Or a mix of both? For me, the more books, the better. But 15 is fine with me. Eight old villains, and seven new, published alternately. Here are my picks:
1. Larloch (Richard Lee Byers)
2. A former apprentice of The Simbul (Lynn Abbey)
3. Telamont Tanthul (Paul S. Kemp)
4. A Cormyrean senior wizard (Ed Greenwood)
5. Szass Tam (Jeff Grubb)
6. A Rashemi witch (Clayton Emery)
7. Lallara Mediocros (Richard Lee Byers)
8. A survivor of Halruaa (Elaine Cunningham)
9. Halaster(Steven Schend)
10. A vengeful denizen from the Sea of Fallen Stars (Bruce Cordell)
11. Mephistopheles (Elaine Cunningham)
12. A Red Wizard from the School of Conjuration (Jeff Grubb)
13. Rivalen Tanthul (Troy Denning)
14. A fallen deva (Ed Greenwood)
15. Vhostym (Paul S. Kemp)
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Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 22 Oct 2010 19:59:50
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 06:19:45
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Larloch, Tam, and Halaster, I think, would really deserve a trilogy each -- or maybe just the last two, since Larloch is largely supposed to remain "the Great Unknown" in the Realms.
Like my past suggestion of a series of novels detailing the fallout of the Manshoon Wars and featuring some of the more prominent Manshoon clones as primary protagonists [all authored by either Steven Schend or Ed Greenwood, of course  ], characters like Tam and Halaster would be more effectively handled when allowed the "literary room" offered by a trilogy. Kinda like what the Black Library are doing now, with their Warhammer Legends trilogies that focus on characters like Nagash.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 06:32:41
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'Tis time to make Larloch "Known" in the Realms.
I agree that Tam's and Halaster's stories are best rendered in a trilogy. But the stand-alone novel of each could be some sort of an introduction or overview to the trilogy. Much like Blackstaff in The Wizards ---such a long, fulfilled life hardly fits a single novel. I think Schend better write a trilogy of him...
And I think the new villains in the series, should there be, will be best presented were they to be somehow connected to these (the five old in my list) established, long-staying, fearsome villains.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 16:17:42
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You could do a series just on 'Netherease Liches' - I can think of four (including Larloch) off the top of my head (although one is currently the ghost of Lich).
It would be interesting to do a Cormyr: A Novel-like treatment of the lives of Larloch, Iouluam(sp?), that 'Undying' guy (forget the name), etc - you know, little glimpses of what they were up during different periods of their very long lives.
I would probably throw Halaster in as well - I have a feeling he was a Netherease Archwizard for time, either in-disquise or openly. After all, someone had to "instruct the kiddies". 
Maybe he was the Chronomancer. 
Anyhow, you could write a novel about Larloch like that, and still not reveal anything specific about his 'real goal(s)'.
Unfortunately, other then us die-hard Realms fans, how popular is a series like that going to be? If you don't toss-in a dark-Elf with two swords it ain't gonna sell well.
Then again... you could give cameos to Zacknafein and others who existed in FR's past... that would be cool (C'mon... Zaknafein meets Halaster - what could be kewler then that?). Perhaps a meeting between a young Khelben and Iouluam... it could work. It would be a neat juggling trick to balance all that history with enough action to make a series like that feasible, though. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 02:05:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Unfortunately, other then us die-hard Realms fans, how popular is a series like that going to be? If you don't toss-in a dark-Elf with two swords it ain't gonna sell well.
That's why perhaps it's time to unleash Larloch, so to speak. He might be the only FR character whose popularity matches or exceeds Drizzt/Jaraxle's (two drow I only know by name as I don't read novels starring fighters).
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 03:39:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I would probably throw Halaster in as well - I have a feeling he was a Netherease Archwizard for time, either in-disquise or openly. After all, someone had to "instruct the kiddies".
But he's from Imaskar...He has a Neth apprentice, though, Shradin (if I remember right.) He's a Netherese necromancer who survived the Fall.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 10:53:45
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 11:08:24
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Well, one or two new villains can be lower level. But I don't think all should be, since that would be not good in terms of sales...
Lower level villains are just fine in this series, if there really will be. If you remember in The Wizards series, particularly in Frostfell, the heroine is just a lower level wizard, oh well, at least if compared to Khelben, who is also in that series.
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 17:45:13
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I think you can use high level villains without needing RSEs. Not every single plot devised by say, Manshoon, is going to change the face of the world. It could be that he is after an artifact that won't instantly grant him ultimate power. Maybe, somewhere down the road after the story, the item can be part of a larger plot. I think this idea was handled well in the Blades of the Moonsea trilogy with Asperus. Or maybe it is just a plot to spread their influence, or to regain something they lost long ago that has no real importance beyond sentimental value, or maybe they are fighting another villain, etc.
Personally, I would like to see a series like this. There are interesting villains and I see no reason they shouldn't have the spotlight now and then. It seems to work for the Star Wars books. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 06:40:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I think you can use high level villains without needing RSEs. Not every single plot devised by say, Manshoon, is going to change the face of the world.
Good point, Tyrant. It's just that often we equate high level villains with RSEs. But there's Larloch, who hasn't yet caused (correct me if I'm wrong) RSEs, but whose schemes are so complex and evil nonetheless.
I really do not care if the plot involves an RSE or not, so long as we see more of these villains, and delve into their minds.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 16:06:52
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A couple years ago, I came up with a Scyllua Darkhope novel that was definitely *not* an RSE (basically, it was a conspiracy to frame her as a traitor to the Zhentarim and assassinate her). But obviously she kicked the bucket and that never happened.
I think small-scale stories are really awesome and fun (all three of my FR novels to date don't involve RSEs)--they don't tend to sell as well, however.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 17:39:50
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| I dunno about that Erik, at least the first of the Driz'zt novels were pretty small scale (not really to my taste, though, so I don't know about the later ones). |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2010 : 23:35:50
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Driz'zt is so well known (and well loved?) that there's practically no need for an RSE in any book about him to sell. And like him, Halaster, Larloch, Telamont, and Szass Tam are famous enough and won't need RSEs either. Not that I am against RSEs. They're fine, as long as they make sense and don't negatively affect character development.
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Edited by - Dennis on 29 Jul 2010 23:38:08 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 00:13:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A couple years ago, I came up with a Scyllua Darkhope novel that was definitely *not* an RSE (basically, it was a conspiracy to frame her as a traitor to the Zhentarim and assassinate her). But obviously she kicked the bucket and that never happened.
I think small-scale stories are really awesome and fun (all three of my FR novels to date don't involve RSEs)--they don't tend to sell as well, however.
Cheers
I would love to have read a story like that!
I'd like to see some actual sales figures on novel sales... All we had for a while was small-scale stories, but we've been told more than once since then that those kinds of tales don't sell as well. Which makes me wonder how they sold for so long if they don't sell as well... |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2010 : 01:26:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A couple years ago, I came up with a Scyllua Darkhope novel that was definitely *not* an RSE (basically, it was a conspiracy to frame her as a traitor to the Zhentarim and assassinate her). But obviously she kicked the bucket and that never happened.
Is there any chance you could possibly share some tidbits about that Darkhope novel, friend Erik? I always felt she needed more "screen-time." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 05:03:12
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I don't really like the trend of 'focusing on villains.' It seems to happen in shared worlds all the time.
I like many villains. But I like many villains BECAUSE they are good villains. I am not necessarily entertained by reading/watching them go about their villainy, unless there is a definite foil of a hero in it.
I don't want to see a book about a criminal like Artemis Entreri, winning out over worse criminals.
Star Wars 1-6 is definitely about Darth Vader. But none of it focuses on the villainy. It shows the villainy yes! yet it is not celebrated. Anakin's fall is framed in a story of heroes. Likewise his later redemption, is due to heroism.
The books about Darth Vader hunting down the other Jedi are entertaining. What I like about those, is they did not necessarily CELEBRATE Darth Vader.
Often stories on villains celebrate the villain. Make him the 'cooler' criminal. Marvel comics is all about that.
I would find a novel about Darkhope falling from Paldinhood interesting. I would not find a novel about Darkhope being an Antipaladin all that interesting. Most villain stories tend to border on gratuitous.
If you want to show how cool a villain is, do it in a heroic framework. Marvel accomplishes that with Dr. Doom all the time. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 05:14:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
A couple years ago, I came up with a Scyllua Darkhope novel that was definitely *not* an RSE (basically, it was a conspiracy to frame her as a traitor to the Zhentarim and assassinate her). But obviously she kicked the bucket and that never happened.
I think small-scale stories are really awesome and fun (all three of my FR novels to date don't involve RSEs)--they don't tend to sell as well, however.
Cheers
I have no doubt you would make a a good novel out of that, but again I worry about the unofficial term I am using of the framework. Darkhope is evil, yet I would like to see some heroic outcome, from her foiling the plot.
Otherwise it is just one deserving villain out maneuvering another.
As for RSE's, they make for SOME great books. The FR novels I like the most have not been RSE's.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 09:25:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I don't really like the trend of 'focusing on villains.' It seems to happen in shared worlds all the time.
I like many villains. But I like many villains BECAUSE they are good villains. I am not necessarily entertained by reading/watching them go about their villainy, unless there is a definite foil of a hero in it.
I don't want to see a book about a criminal like Artemis Entreri, winning out over worse criminals.
Star Wars 1-6 is definitely about Darth Vader. But none of it focuses on the villainy. It shows the villainy yes! yet it is not celebrated. Anakin's fall is framed in a story of heroes. Likewise his later redemption, is due to heroism.
The books about Darth Vader hunting down the other Jedi are entertaining. What I like about those, is they did not necessarily CELEBRATE Darth Vader.
Often stories on villains celebrate the villain. Make him the 'cooler' criminal. Marvel comics is all about that.
I would find a novel about Darkhope falling from Paldinhood interesting. I would not find a novel about Darkhope being an Antipaladin all that interesting. Most villain stories tend to border on gratuitous.
If you want to show how cool a villain is, do it in a heroic framework. Marvel accomplishes that with Dr. Doom all the time.
I don't think you need a heroic framework to use a villain. For one, if they are the star of the book it would be nice to see them win so unless the heroes are there to make his won all the sweeter I don't see the point.
The story doesn't have to be the villain fighting a worse evil (and who said it had to be worse? It could just be the competition). It could be about Manshoon becoming the powerful character he is and building the Zhentarim, or when his private version of the Clone Wars happened. It could be Szazz Tam while he was still mortal showing us why he chose lichdom, and perhaps get an idea of what he misses most that he had to give up when he became a lich. It could be about the people and events that made them who they are. It could either of two or Larloch (or whoever) having a spell go haywire and present them with a situation that is an actual challenge (attempt to summon one creature results in summoning a much more powerful creature or accidently sends the caster to a different plane that isn't super prepared to handle, etc).
The stories don't have to celebrate villains having them walking around twirling their mustache while they kick dogs (who are down) in back alleys. Salvatore seemed to do a decent job writing about Artemis and Jarlaxle who are both in the villain category without having it be these things.
I think The Haunted Lands was an excellent example of a villain centric series (at it's core). Virtually everyone in it was a Thayan fighting for one Zulkir or another. It really was a matter of which force of evil was going to win out and rule Thay (an "evil" nation). Sure, some of the characters were decent enough people, but they served the Zulkirs who were definately not decent people. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 15:28:27
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Right. My point however is there is a trend for people wanting to read about the villains instead of the heroes. Almost like walking the line of evil is something everyone wishes they can do.
<ost surveys point to people wanting to play SIth in the Kotor mmorpg for example. My friends keep trying to convince me that would be more fun than playing a jedi.
Why?
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 01 Aug 2010 15:31:22 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 19:44:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Right. My point however is there is a trend for people wanting to read about the villains instead of the heroes. Almost like walking the line of evil is something everyone wishes they can do.
Well, honestly, I think there is a desire in a lot of people to have the ability to do that. Fantasy is about escape. Most people are decent people, but a number wish they had some way to vent from time to time or wish they could escape the day to day routine or what have you. Reading about a character who throws the rules out the window and takes what they want can be an escape from normality for these people. Honestly, I like stories like that. I can only read so many "good wins against impossible odds because publisher fiat says good always wins" stories before I get sick of them. I like books (and movies and games) with more of a moral gray zone for the heroes and the villains and if one side wins I like to feel like they should've won and not that they had to win somehow so they had to bust out the Dues Ex to save the plot. Also, the villains can be interesting characters too. I prefer them to be interesting characters. The key is not letting slip into the total scum zone. Anakin came pretty close in Revenge of the Sith during the temple assault (and some would argue that pushes him over the line). Characters can be evil without being evil in their every, single action (which puts them in the scum zone). Again looking at the Haunted Lands series, I wanted to see more of Szazz Tam. Yes, he was a villain but his every deed wasn't dripping with evil. He didn't sink to petty levels of evil. There was a character there, not a mustache twirling archtype.
Beyond that, I like knowing what makes characters tick. I find characters like Jarlaxle interesting. He's in a position to be petty, stupid evil but he doesn't sink to that point. Or Telamont and the other Shade Princes. What drives them? How can someone live for so long with doing the things they do? What allows someone to accept that about themselves? Telamont does it for the glory of empire, but is it for his own glory or that of his people? Rivalen does it for the glory of Shar, but can he live with where that will eventually lead no matter what he does? Berrerus (sp?) clearly cared for his mother a great deal so you know he is capable of compassion and not just evil through and through. Where will that lead after what he learned? What are the thoughts of the average citizen of Shave Enclave? Do they like The Most High and his policies? It's things like this that interest me. The things that make the villains 3 dimensional characters. I don't necessarily want to see them have final victory (unless I hate the hero for some reason, then I say let them win) but I do want to know about them. Well written villains make for better heroes, most of the time.
quote:
<ost surveys point to people wanting to play SIth in the Kotor mmorpg for example. My friends keep trying to convince me that would be more fun than playing a jedi.
Why?
In my play throughs of KotoR 1 and 2, I played as a Sith/Dark Side character. In the vast majority of video games, you are the good guy by default and you have no real choice. That's fine, in and of itself, and most of the games I like are like that. However, in KotoR and a few other games, we finally have a choice (finally is a relative term, I'm sure having the choice predates KotoR). We get to decide our character's morality. For me, I had no desire to go through the game helping people, some of whom are in the mess their in due to their own stupidity, when I could be out killing Sith/Tuskans/Bounty Hunters/whatever. It's fun to let loose. I wish I could've killed Carth. He annoyed me to no end and then had the nerve to run away at the end. Atton was a much better side kick. The other reason I played dark side was because it favored my playstyle of "destroy everything in my path, ask questions later". Being Dark Side costs you fewer Force points to use the Dark Side powers which are the more destructive powers. I mean, who doesn't enjoy throwing around Force Lightning or sucking the lifefore out of everything around you every now and then? And honestly, I was curious to see how far the game would let me go with evil options. Some were pretty evil, though they were also pretty petty. It's the same reason Grand Theft Auto is popular. People like to have choices and to play as the bad guys sometimes.
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Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 21:02:59
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I like Mournblade's point about framing it in a heroic story. While you can certainly write about a villain being villainous, it just gets tedious after a while IMO. A villain doing something a hero would otherwise do--and doing it in ways a hero never would--now that's interesting.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Is there any chance you could possibly share some tidbits about that Darkhope novel, friend Erik? I always felt she needed more "screen-time."
Well sure, so long as we realize it's non-canonical. This is one of my dream FR novels, one I'd love to write but haven't (yet) had the opportunity.
My story was a struggle/romance between Scyllua (evil paladin) and a hero who, if not actually a paladin, was a devotedly LG hero (I think he was a ranger?)--the two are forced to work together/rely on each other. It explores the nature of good and evil, and shows the light and darkness in both of them. As for what happens in the end, well, you know me. 
I think such a novel would have gone great in a series about villains ala the Dungeons, Wilds, Citadels, etc. You know, maybe books like:
Zhentarim, by Ed Greenwood
Serpent, by Elaine Cunningham
Zulkir, by RLB
Shade, by PSK
Darkhope, by ESdB
And so on . . .
None of which actually happened*, but it would have been cool.
Cheers
*Except that we have Elaine's The Serpent's Daughter and Paul's ongoing Cycle of Night series. |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Tamsar
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
141 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2010 : 22:11:58
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To be honest I have no problem with RSE novels, as long as the R means Regional as opposed to Realms :D
There have been plenty of novels that have dramatically affected the locations they were placed in, heck the very first couple of realms novels had dramatic impacts on the regions where they were based (Darkwalker on Moonshae and The Crystal Shard).
To be honest I'd rather not have a series about villains. A few exceptions to rule would be OK, for some of the truly great villains (Manshoon, Fzoul, Halaster to name a few) but not an entire series.
AS longs as their motives are fleshed out enough in the book they appear in, thats enough for me to be honest.
For me it always been about the Heroes, sure a well fleshed out villains is an integral part of the story, but only so far as to make the heroes endeavours to overcome them more enjoyable. |
Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 05:51:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
Well, honestly, I think there is a desire in a lot of people to have the ability to do that. Fantasy is about escape. Most people are decent people, but a number wish they had some way to vent from time to time or wish they could escape the day to day routine or what have you. Reading about a character who throws the rules out the window and takes what they want can be an escape from normality for these people. Honestly, I like stories like that. I can only read so many "good wins against impossible odds because publisher fiat says good always wins" stories before I get sick of them. I like books (and movies and games) with more of a moral gray zone for the heroes and the villains and if one side wins I like to feel like they should've won and not that they had to win somehow so they had to bust out the Dues Ex to save the plot. Also, the villains can be interesting characters too. I prefer them to be interesting characters. The key is not letting slip into the total scum zone. Anakin came pretty close in Revenge of the Sith during the temple assault (and some would argue that pushes him over the line). Characters can be evil without being evil in their every, single action (which puts them in the scum zone). Again looking at the Haunted Lands series, I wanted to see more of Szazz Tam. Yes, he was a villain but his every deed wasn't dripping with evil. He didn't sink to petty levels of evil. There was a character there, not a mustache twirling archtype.
I love good villains don't get me wrong. Dr. Doom and Darth Vader were great villains without having a story dedicated to them (talking episodes 4-6 for Darth).
I like the moral grey area ALOT. Heroes like Wolverine and Punisher fill that well. I want to see the hero in the moral grey area, not the villain. Our real world basically has everything in the moral grey. For the most part, in comics and fantasy at least I like to see the tangible good and the tangible evil. For example in my campaign you will never find a GOOD orc. They just do not exist. They are the embodiment of brutality.
I see WHY people like villain stories, it is just at least in the realms of comics, I think it has been overdone, and shared worlds are much like comics.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 07:23:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
The story doesn't have to be the villain fighting a worse evil (and who said it had to be worse? It could just be the competition)... It could be Szazz Tam while he was still mortal showing us why he chose lichdom, and perhaps get an idea of what he misses most that he had to give up when he became a lich. It could be about the people and events that made them who they are. It could either of two or Larloch (or whoever) having a spell go haywire and present them with a situation that is an actual challenge (attempt to summon one creature results in summoning a much more powerful creature or accidently sends the caster to a different plane that isn't super prepared to handle, etc).
Exactly. As my point in my very first scroll above, the series doesn't have to be a celebration of villainy. Rather, an in-depth analysis/character-focus of the villains, most especially starting with their childhood...Questions like... What truly makes them evil? What life did they lead before their rise to power?
The plot of each book, again, does not have to be celebratory of villainy. Your examples, Tyrant, are good. And what's more, it could be non-RSE. If, say, Larloch casts a spell that went awry and temporarily rendered him vulnerable, the Realms need not know. It could be that one of his subordinate liches figured it out and betrayed him to gain access to the artifacts Larloch had accumulated through the centuries.
quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
I think The Haunted Lands was an excellent example of a villain centric series (at it's core). Virtually everyone in it was a Thayan fighting for one Zulkir or another. It really was a matter of which force of evil was going to win out and rule Thay (an "evil" nation). Sure, some of the characters were decent enough people, but they served the Zulkirs who were definately not decent people.
Quite right. It's one of the many reasons I like that series so much. And while Szass Tam has a lot of “screen-time” in that trilogy, it wouldn't hurt if he'd have one or two books in The Villains series.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 07:29:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I see WHY people like villain stories, it is just at least in the realms of comics, I think it has been overdone, and shared worlds are much like comics.
If villain stories are overdone, then that would make hero stories OVER-overdone. In the end, what will matter is how good the plot is; how popular and believable the villains are; and how convincing the impasse/crisis they blunder in is.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 07:38:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think such a novel would have gone great in a series about villains ala the Dungeons, Wilds, Citadels, etc. You know, maybe books like:
Zhentarim, by Ed Greenwood
Serpent, by Elaine Cunningham
Zulkir, by RLB
Shade, by PSK
Darkhope, by ESdB
And so on . . .
None of which actually happened*, but it would have been cool.
Interesting...
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Except that we have..... Paul's ongoing Cycle of Night series.
That series does not exclusively focus on the Shadovar. It's more like a continuation of The Twilight War, the focus being Cale's son. So I wouldn't consider it villain-centered.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 15:52:52
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Except that we have..... Paul's ongoing Cycle of Night series.
That series does not exclusively focus on the Shadovar. It's more like a continuation of The Twilight War, the focus being Cale's son. So I wouldn't consider it villain-centered.
Oh, I know that--I'm just saying it has the potential to continue those story threads. I suspect we'll see a good deal of the shadovar in it, but then again, who knows? Whatever PSK does, it's sure to be great.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 16:23:04
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I'm pretty sure it'll be great. While I am not a fan of Cale (I only read book 2 of the EC saga, and not even Paul's books prior to that), I had fun reading the TW. I even liked Riven---a little----because of that series. And that's something, because I am not an avid fan of fighters. They usually bore me to death.
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 22:50:39
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My favourite villain in the Realms is Szass Tam by a long way. I would love a trilogy covering his early years and his rise to power - especially for the moment he becomes a lich after being mortally wounded on the battlefield. I've always found him to be one of the most interesting and complex characters of the setting and would be delighted to see more of his back story.
As for Larloch - another major favourite of mine, I would rather simply see him featured in a story somewhere with nothing more than hints as to his true nature. His current role as an 'unseen' but incredibly powerful force is not something I would want tarnished with overfamilliarity. Ed's description of Larloch as a 'Force of nature' is perfect and I want him to remain like that as long as possible. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2010 : 23:56:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Fingal
As for Larloch - another major favourite of mine, I would rather simply see him featured in a story somewhere with nothing more than hints as to his true nature. His current role as an 'unseen' but incredibly powerful force is not something I would want tarnished with overfamilliarity. Ed's description of Larloch as a 'Force of nature' is perfect and I want him to remain like that as long as possible.
It appears like many here in the 'Keep think that way...Well, I disagree. Where's the fun in that?! I think he has been "unseen" for A VERY LONG time that it's time to make him SEEN. When I like a character, I always want to know MORE about him/her (than just scattered hints about him/her here and there). And there's no such thing as "overfamiliarity" for me; I'd rather call it a considerable knowledge about someone/something.
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Edited by - Dennis on 02 Aug 2010 23:57:58 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2010 : 00:26:40
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| As much as I like Larloch, I'm happy with him not receiving much airtime. If he gets put in the spotlight, he'll inevitably get statted out to be just another target for powergamers. |
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The Villains Series
