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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 12:42:52
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
The original author dropped out (I don't know who or why) and they needed a proposal in 14 days. That meant learning the setting (box set, several game modules0 and reading one published novel, one in manuscript, and one in outline. The proposal included a narrative outline, detailed chapter-by-chapter outline (about 20 pages), character sketches for major and secondary characters, and a 10-page writing sample. I swallowed hard and said, "Sure, no problem!"
[ ... ]
There was no story bible, no overarching plan. The only plot guidance was the title; it had to have a radiant dragon in it. I had no idea what the endpoint of the novel should be. I was concerned about moving the story in a direction that would conflict with books 5 and 6 (about which I knew nothing), or moving the story arc along too far or too quickly. The editor (NOT Jim Lowder) responded with words to this effect, "Just write the story, and we'll let you know if you go too far."
Ouch. Both authors of settings and authors of books deserve better than that.
So... the peculiar approach to project management and continuity control that sank Double Diamond Triangle saga was not so unique even back then? The twilight of continuity editing in TSR/WotC? No wonder they were eaten by a toy company.
quote:
He only balked at two things: No drow in space, and I was not permitted to name an aparusa--a Spelljammer version of stereotypes of Roma culture-"Rosleigh," because the editor would not countenance the barely-hidden "Gypsy Rosleigh" pun. (This is one thing I wish the novel did not contain. Thirty years ago, "gypsy" stereotypes were a fantasy trope. Most people, myself included, did not realize how objectionable and racist many of these tropes were.)
Eh, no point to dwell on that. There probably will be more, uh, little discoveries of this sort... for a little while. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 12:57:34
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Eh, no point to dwell on that. There probably will be more, uh, little discoveries of this sort... for a little while.
Thing is, the few people of Rom descent in my acquaintance and many accounts I've read suggest that they DO care about "gyspy" stereotypes There's still considerable discrimination against the Rom in some European countries, so from their perspective, perpetuating stereotypes is far from harmless.
Even so, your point is well taken. Some people within a group hate stereotyping, others shrug it off. Current-day witches, for example. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 11 Apr 2021 12:59:25 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 18:03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Okay, here are a few thoughts about the process of writing a Spelljammer novel.
Shortly after Elfshadow was published, editor Jim Lowder called to see if I'd be interested in writing a book in a new setting. There was a catch: The original author dropped out (I don't know who or why) and they needed a proposal in 14 days. That meant learning the setting (box set, several game modules0 and reading one published novel, one in manuscript, and one in outline. The proposal included a narrative outline, detailed chapter-by-chapter outline (about 20 pages), character sketches for major and secondary characters, and a 10-page writing sample. I swallowed hard and said, "Sure, no problem!"
At the time, by kids were 4.5 and 18 months, so I didn't sleep much for the next two weeks. Andrew was in preschool in the afternoon, and by day 13 Sean was done with this. While I was madly finishing up the writing sample, he snuck up behind me, turned off the computer, and ran like hell. This was before the days of frequent, automatic backups. My wail of anguish probably still resounds through the neighborhood on moonless nights.
But I reconstructed the sample, printed everything out on the dot-matrix printed, separated the pages, and schlepped the package down to FedEx. Hit the deadline, all was good.
After the proposal was accepted and I settled down to writing, I began to notice things about the project that weren't apparently to me during the initial mad rush. Also, this was the first multi-author project I worked on, so I didn't know what necessary elements to look for. If I HAD know, I wouldn't have found them.
There was no story bible, no overarching plan. The only plot guidance was the title; it had to have a radiant dragon in it. I had no idea what the endpoint of the novel should be. I was concerned about moving the story in a direction that would conflict with books 5 and 6 (about which I knew nothing), or moving the story arc along too far or too quickly. The editor (NOT Jim Lowder) responded with words to this effect, "Just write the story, and we'll let you know if you go too far."
So I tried to find where those boundaries might be. It's a truism in the Forgotten Realms that you "can't blow up the moon." So on the theory that I'd start at the extreme edges with an obviously verboten plot point and work back, I told the editor I was thinking of destroying a planed. "Cool!" Teenaged bipedal space hippos? "Great!" He only balked at two things: No drow in space, and I was not permitted to name an aparusa--a Spelljammer version of stereotypes of Roma culture-"Rosleigh," because the editor would not countenance the barely-hidden "Gypsy Rosleigh" pun. (This is one thing I wish the novel did not contain. Thirty years ago, "gypsy" stereotypes were a fantasy trope. Most people, myself included, did not realize how objectionable and racist many of these tropes were.)
One plot element that proved problematic was Teldon Moore's cape. In addition to permitting him to captain the vessel, it had other, unrevealed magic and it tended to change size, length, and color at odd moments. Sometimes for no apparent reason. So I made a spreadsheet of the changes, the circumstances, and the apparent effects the cape had, trying to discern some pattern. (Gentle reader, there WAS none.) The editor's response was, "Cool! Send that to me. That might be helpful going forward."
Really? You think?
So I'd say the primary difference between Spelljammer and the Forgotten Realms was the integrity of the setting. There are discrepancies in the FR lore, sure, but the setting WORKS. It's a vast puzzle with pieces that fit together, and the history and magic and lore were well defined. The Forgotten Realms EXISTED. To me, FR novels were historical fiction, set in this existing world, adding new characters and color (and the occasional Realms-Shaking Event). With my first few FR books. outlines and manuscripts were run past people in the game department for notes. There was meticulous attention to Getting Things Right. Spelljammer felt more like an airplane was was being built in mid-flight.
Some people thrive on this sort of creative chaos. I am a person who needs to outline. If I don't know where things are going, chances are I'm not going to be happy with where they end up. So I can't really tell you how I feel about the Cloakmaster Cycle, because I never read books 5 and 6.
But even though Spelljammer wasn't my favorite writing experience, I was grateful for the opportunity and I enjoyed many aspects of the writing process. One anecdote in particular stays with me. Four-year-old Andrew wandered into the room when I was placing the tiny paper models of spelljamming vessels in various locations around the room, as an aid to keeping track of everything in 3D when choreographing a space battle. "Whatcha doing, Mommy?" he inquired. "I'm working." He waited a beat, then said, "Yeah, RIGHT."
I didn't know you had made a spelljammer book. Out of curiosity, was this particular book related to FR or realmspace to any serious degree? Secondly, I just wanted to add, I hear you on the "some people thrive on chaos in an environment". I find nearly every job I go to that the first thing I have to do is instill a firm hand towards developing documentation, procedures, lists of devices we manage, making sure systems are backed up, etc.... So many people in the IT industry are only worried about the next project where they can try to shine for management and not about the support afterwards. If recovering a huge Louisiana based company from hurricane Katrina taught me anything, it was that being prepared for the worst is often looked down on by people, until they need it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 19:35:55
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The series was called The Cloakmaster Cycle. It started on Krynn, came to the Realms, and then spent a lot of time wandering about various Spelljammer locales. Oerth may have been visited, somewhere in there, I don't recall.
There were some good ideas in the books, but the series was largely ignored by the settings it visited and even later Spelljammer material. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 20:31:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The series was called The Cloakmaster Cycle. It started on Krynn, came to the Realms, and then spent a lot of time wandering about various Spelljammer locales. Oerth may have been visited, somewhere in there, I don't recall.
There were some good ideas in the books, but the series was largely ignored by the settings it visited and even later Spelljammer material.
Yeah, there was one that visited Nimbral (never read it mind you), but I know that wasn't Elaine. But it sounds like this one didn't have much realms involvement either? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2021 : 21:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The series was called The Cloakmaster Cycle. It started on Krynn, came to the Realms, and then spent a lot of time wandering about various Spelljammer locales. Oerth may have been visited, somewhere in there, I don't recall.
There were some good ideas in the books, but the series was largely ignored by the settings it visited and even later Spelljammer material.
Yeah, there was one that visited Nimbral (never read it mind you), but I know that wasn't Elaine. But it sounds like this one didn't have much realms involvement either?
Not a lot, no.
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2021 : 17:51:38
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| Well, if I recall correctly, the drow were in Spelljammer, after all. Maybe they were introduced later, though. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2021 : 19:06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Well, if I recall correctly, the drow were in Spelljammer, after all. Maybe they were introduced later, though.
The first boxed set mentions a modified elven Armada that may be in drow hands, but also says the drow avoid arcane space.
The later War Captain's Companion, though, details a couple types of drow ship -- Jade Spiders and Jade Spider Commandships (the latter can carry up to five of the former). These ships are powered by a radiant helm that only works on drow ships. And this set mentions that even more than elves, spacefaring drow hate the neogi, to the point that when the drow are using a lifejammer, a neogi will be stuffed into one before an elf is. An umber hulk slave of the neogi will also go in before an elf does. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Aug 2021 19:07:34 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2021 : 08:29:27
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
He only balked at two things: No drow in space,
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The first boxed set mentions a modified elven Armada that may be in drow hands, but also says the drow avoid arcane space.
Yes, but... the same editors who made Raistlin a drow? Not surprised at all.
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
it tended to change size, length, and color at odd moments. Sometimes for no apparent reason. So I made a spreadsheet of the changes, the circumstances, and the apparent effects the cape had, trying to discern some pattern. (Gentle reader, there WAS none.)
quote:
The later War Captain's Companion, though, details a couple types of drow ship -- Jade Spiders and Jade Spider Commandships (the latter can carry up to five of the former).
It appears to be half-baked, however (lacking proper weapons, for one).
Between this and great continuity editing on the cloak, it's likely the editors were left wandering in the fog and just made stuff up themselves.
quote:
And this set mentions that even more than elves, spacefaring drow hate the neogi, to the point that when the drow are using a lifejammer, a neogi will be stuffed into one before an elf is.
Makes sense. Spider-kissing drow have to loathe them because these abominations are disgusting mockery of the noble spider.
Spider-hating drow have to loathe them because they are half spiders.
And the rest... well, those are Neogi, after all. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2021 : 13:00:52
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| What's this about making Raistlin a drow? I know they did that with his apprentice Dalamar (because of confusion over Krynn's dark elves and everyone else's). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2021 : 00:04:16
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At the risk of delving too far off topic, one of the best uses of Drow in Wildspace was by Steve Kurtz in his Dungeon #45 adventure "An Artist’s Errand."
He really managed to develop the methodology of how and why the Drow were in Wildspace and how they operated with the game mechanics of the time. He utilized a lot stuff from Ed's Drow of the Underdark, and the Drow in his adventure were originally from Toril, even though the adventure is set in another crystal sphere.
Highly recommend the adventure to look through, even if you have zero interest in Spelljammer, as it provides a bunch of Drow that are different from the stereotypes the race devolved into lately.
Since I'm guessing Steve was wandering around TSR in the same period as Elaine, I wonder if some of his depictions of the Black Widow Nation came out of Elaine's depictions of the Drow. There were individualist motives for the different characters, while they were overtly evil, they had nuance, etc. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
Edited by - nblanton on 05 Aug 2021 00:09:47 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2021 : 02:51:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
What's this about making Raistlin a drow? I know they did that with his apprentice Dalamar (because of confusion over Krynn's dark elves and everyone else's).
Sorry, Dalamar, of course.
Then again. I'm not paid to write it when not half asleep. 
quote:
Originally posted by nblanton
At the risk of delving too far off topic, one of the best uses of Drow in Wildspace was by Steve Kurtz in his Dungeon #45 adventure "An Artist�s Errand."
He really managed to develop the methodology of how and why the Drow were in Wildspace and how they operated with the game mechanics of the time. He utilized a lot stuff from Ed's Drow of the Underdark, and the Drow in his adventure were originally from Toril, even though the adventure is set in another crystal sphere.
To tie it back to the topic: Dungeon #45 was released in January/February 1994 (according to forgottenrealms fandom com); The Radiant Dragon by Elaine Cunningham, November 1992.
It's feasible the matter somewhat cleared by then, rather than having the left leg still not know where the right leg tries to walk. If not quite expected, since their continuity editing wasn't good before or after. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2021 : 04:17:28
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I love Spelljammer, but as a product line, it was a great example of everyone doing their own thing and no one paying attention to anyone else.
I wasn't familiar with that Dungeon adventure, but having taken a quick glance at it, I like what I saw. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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nblanton
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2021 : 23:38:56
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It's a good adventure in my opinion, and was what introduced me to the setting (that and a Greyhawk campaign journal in Dragon #199 about The Black Pegasus Trading Co.)
I started buying the TSR magazines with my leftover lunch money in late 1993. It was less risky at that time with my limited funds to purchase than a potential stinker of a module. So that timeframe makes sense. Dungeon #45 was the first Dungeon I ever purchased, and Dragon #199 was the first TSR magazine I purchased and I knew that I got them close to each other, but the Dragon mag was first. #199 was in November 1993. The next month I got my first AD&D stuff (I had been playing OD&D with odds and ends of stuff that kids in my Boy Scout troop had photocopies of photocopies of. No one had dice. It was a mess trying to play. Sucked back then in a small town in NC.) with my Christmas money. PHB, DMG, FRS1 The Dalelands, MC3 FR Monsters Compendium, and had to pay the Waldenbooks to order me a Monster Manual as they didn't stock that. Man, you put me in the wayback machine Wooly.
Oh, the days before reviews, message boards, and forums.
I've ran that adventure of Steve's numerous times over the years. Everyone has always enjoyed it. I didn't realize until much later that Steve was the author of a lot of Al Qadim and the great The Complete Book of Necromancers.
I always played my Spelljammer stuff as a mechanic to add to the game, moreso than a standalone setting. Seemed better to run that way to me. |
It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you, if it goes against the obvious intent of the game.
Afterword, DMG pg 230. |
Edited by - nblanton on 08 Aug 2021 23:39:51 |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2021 : 21:12:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I love Spelljammer, but as a product line, it was a great example of everyone doing their own thing and no one paying attention to anyone else.
Nailed it. There were times during the writing process that I went overboard in an attempt to GET attention. There was an old saying at TSR to the effect of "don't blow up the moon." So I called my editor and said, "Oh, btw, I'm thinking of blowing up a planet," and all he said was, "Cool."
They DID draw a line at Drow In Space, though, so there's that. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2021 : 16:34:21
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Don't do it! It's a trap!!
Facebook is like Thay. They draw you in with some cheap magic items and the next thing you know, you are just another minion in their army of the undead.  |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2021 : 23:22:29
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As a gift to readers, I put together a little seasonal fiction collection. Ko-fi, a donation/tip site, now has a store and, unlike Amazon, you can list free stuff. Here's a link:
https://ko-fi.com/s/f2ed1e9df3
You can download a PDF from Ko-fi. If you'd rather have an ebook, it's also listed on Amazon for $.99. (NOTE: If you've already read VISIONS, a recent ebook collection, you've already read these stories.)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B09HR1Z3N1/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1...
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2021 : 13:35:33
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Yes, that is the art for the cover of Reclamation. I don't know who the artist is.
The artist is Matthew Stewart. I found him using Google's Image Search function (which is far better than that Lens thing they're pushing now).
http://www.matthew-stewart.com/#/reclamation/ |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2021 : 14:21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Yes, that is the art for the cover of Reclamation. I don't know who the artist is.
The artist is Matthew Stewart. I found him using Google's Image Search function (which is far better than that Lens thing they're pushing now).
http://www.matthew-stewart.com/#/reclamation/
Thanks Wooly for this... I'd never seen this artist, but I like him. I'll be damned if I don't have too much wall art on my walls already. Makes me wonder if there's not an electronic frame I can buy that's not itty bitty and wouldn't need constant battery changing (because a cord would look horrible if not hidden).
I think this one, the eternal promise, and dragon forge are all pretty enough to want to hang. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2021 : 14:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Yes, that is the art for the cover of Reclamation. I don't know who the artist is.
The artist is Matthew Stewart. I found him using Google's Image Search function (which is far better than that Lens thing they're pushing now).
http://www.matthew-stewart.com/#/reclamation/
Thanks Wooly for this... I'd never seen this artist, but I like him. I'll be damned if I don't have too much wall art on my walls already. Makes me wonder if there's not an electronic frame I can buy that's not itty bitty and wouldn't need constant battery changing (because a cord would look horrible if not hidden).
I think this one, the eternal promise, and dragon forge are all pretty enough to want to hang.
Well, there's the cover, all we need now is all the words that go inside it :) |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2021 : 12:37:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Well, there's the cover, all we need now is all the words that go inside it :)
The words exist. Kinda sorta. I wrote about half the story, and I still have the file. If the opportunity arises, I would love to finish it.
But it would, of necessity, be a very different story. For one thing, much time has passed and the Realms has moved on. For another, the moonblade lore experienced some significant shifts while I was writing the novel, which pretty much cut the legs out from under the plot. The book I'd planned to write couldn't be written, but there are many ways to tell a tell, and Arilyn is nothing if not resilient. |
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2021 : 13:24:53
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Well, there's the cover, all we need now is all the words that go inside it :)
The words exist. Kinda sorta. I wrote about half the story, and I still have the file. If the opportunity arises, I would love to finish it.
But it would, of necessity, be a very different story. For one thing, much time has passed and the Realms has moved on. For another, the moonblade lore experienced some significant shifts while I was writing the novel, which pretty much cut the legs out from under the plot. The book I'd planned to write couldn't be written, but there are many ways to tell a tell, and Arilyn is nothing if not resilient.
Wouldn't mind the other half-done ones as well. P.S. Forget what they did with the rest of the realms. I know I try to :) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11830 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2021 : 16:48:01
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Well, there's the cover, all we need now is all the words that go inside it :)
The words exist. Kinda sorta. I wrote about half the story, and I still have the file. If the opportunity arises, I would love to finish it.
But it would, of necessity, be a very different story. For one thing, much time has passed and the Realms has moved on. For another, the moonblade lore experienced some significant shifts while I was writing the novel, which pretty much cut the legs out from under the plot. The book I'd planned to write couldn't be written, but there are many ways to tell a tell, and Arilyn is nothing if not resilient.
Merry Christmas Elaine |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6361 Posts |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2021 : 14:15:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
Write it with an aged elf in 1490 recalling the events of 13xx, that way it could all be a dream or a misremembered mistake, doesnt really matter. That would probably satisfy the dmsguild requirements for everything being in the new setting timeline.
Last I heard, the DMG was not accepting fiction set in ANY era. |
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Questions for Elaine Cunningham [II]
