| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 04:05:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I just think they're trying to show some appreciation to the previous generations while still making it fun for people invested with the current edition.
I wish they'd done that a couple years ago...
I appreciate the sentiment, but folks......there just trying to make more $....that's what corporations do! (and so do I  )
There's more than one way to make money. One good way is to actually listen to what your real customers want, and give it to them. Paizo is proving quite well that that is a good business model. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4491 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 05:09:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's more than one way to make money. One good way is to actually listen to what your real customers want, and give it to them. Paizo is proving quite well that that is a good business model.
Could you define what constitutes a real customer? |
Edited by - Diffan on 16 Sep 2010 05:09:20 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 11:37:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's more than one way to make money. One good way is to actually listen to what your real customers want, and give it to them. Paizo is proving quite well that that is a good business model.
Could you define what constitutes a real customer?
Yeah, the people who have already been buying your products for years, and not the vocal dissenters that you'll never please. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4491 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 13:53:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's more than one way to make money. One good way is to actually listen to what your real customers want, and give it to them. Paizo is proving quite well that that is a good business model.
Could you define what constitutes a real customer?
Yeah, the people who have already been buying your products for years, and not the vocal dissenters that you'll never please.
Yea, because real customers just love yet more 3.5/3.75 splat books that just further breaks the game in more various ways! And so I guess because I've been buying WotC products since 2000 til now, does that make me a super Real customer? 
I could go on and on about the glaring problems I've personally found with the 3.5/PF system (which I still play BTW) but I think I'd just be creating more crap than it's worth. |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 14:17:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I just think they're trying to show some appreciation to the previous generations while still making it fun for people invested with the current edition.
I wish they'd done that a couple years ago...
I appreciate the sentiment, but folks......there just trying to make more $....that's what corporations do! (and so do I )
There's more than one way to make money. One good way is to actually listen to what your real customers want, and give it to them. Paizo is proving quite well that that is a good business model.
Oh I totally agree, but wotc passed that fork in the road years ago....and would need to do much more backtracking than using old artwork to get back to it! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
|
|
|
Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 17:30:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, the people who have already been buying your products for years, and not the vocal dissenters that you'll never please.
Here's a good example of a vocal dissenter that you'll never please:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wish they'd done that a couple years ago...
|
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 16 Sep 2010 19:00:20 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 00:27:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There's more than one way to make money. One good way is to actually listen to what your real customers want, and give it to them. Paizo is proving quite well that that is a good business model.
Could you define what constitutes a real customer?
Yeah, the people who have already been buying your products for years, and not the vocal dissenters that you'll never please.
Yea, because real customers just love yet more 3.5/3.75 splat books that just further breaks the game in more various ways! And so I guess because I've been buying WotC products since 2000 til now, does that make me a super Real customer?
I could go on and on about the glaring problems I've personally found with the 3.5/PF system (which I still play BTW) but I think I'd just be creating more crap than it's worth.
Who needs more splat books? I want lots of lore, like they gave us with 1 and 2E. Not the endless parade of rules that was 3.x. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 00:29:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, the people who have already been buying your products for years, and not the vocal dissenters that you'll never please.
Here's a good example of a vocal dissenter that you'll never please:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wish they'd done that a couple years ago...
I was not a vocal dissenter until 4E came out. The vocal dissenters I refer to are those that hated the setting because of all the lore, and/or Mystra and her Chosen.
I would not have become a vocal dissenter if they'd continued to give me stuff even close to what I wanted from the Realms, which was what 3.5 was about -- close to what I wanted, but not quite. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 07:30:51
|
| I think members and staff here at Candlekeep are going to complain no matter what WotC puts out. For the record, I think the retro look is awesome. |
|
|
|
idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 08:21:34
|
| I think that's overgeneralizing a bit and being unfair to the pretty great community of people I've been reading, referencing, and stealing ideas from for years before finally joining. Not everyone here at Candlekeep is complaining just because WotC is putting something out, many of the ones who are 'complaining' in this and other threads are trying to address genuine concerns they have for the brand and setting we all know and want to see continue. I can take or leave the retro styling myself, while I understand the nostalgia trip the red box design is for some people, and I think it is an iconic image, I don't think this box exactly calls out to the new, younger players it is designed for and that by and large the older crowd that will feel the nostalgia has either already converted to 4e or have found another game system to use which they aren't going to abandon for some cover art. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 08:35:23
|
| Indeed. I'm still happily purchasing most everything that comes under the Dungeons and Dragons banner. I won't turn away from worthwhile published lore just because I'm using my own 17+ year-old homebrew rules-system. Granted, it's unlikely I'll ever use most of the rules-stuff now being published for 4e -- but I'll eagerly snap up worthwhile setting material if I can see ways in which it'll work with my own campaigns. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 11:42:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
I think members and staff here at Candlekeep are going to complain no matter what WotC puts out. For the record, I think the retro look is awesome.
I'm not complaining about this -- I just don't care anymore. I was just responding to an earlier comment. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Sep 2010 11:42:46 |
|
|
|
Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 16:47:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I was not a vocal dissenter until...
No need to clarify or even justify.
The point I was trying to make is that when we focus only the thing that irks us, we start becoming exactly like that thing.
|
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 17 Sep 2010 16:47:41 |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4491 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 15:07:26
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Who needs more splat books? I want lots of lore, like they gave us with 1 and 2E. Not the endless parade of rules that was 3.x.
Yep, and that marketing strategy worked wonders for TSR. And for those that could give a rat's behind about the Lore? |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 15:43:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Who needs more splat books? I want lots of lore, like they gave us with 1 and 2E. Not the endless parade of rules that was 3.x.
Yep, and that marketing strategy worked wonders for TSR. And for those that could give a rat's behind about the Lore?
Yeah, and it kept them in business for years, until they got stupid and tried doing too much. If it wasn't a viable strategy, Paizo wouldn't be doing nearly as well as it's doing now.
And if you don't give a rat's behind about the lore, you're prolly not going out of your way to play in a setting that is defined by the volume of it's lore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 15:54:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed. I'm still happily purchasing most everything that comes under the Dungeons and Dragons banner. I won't turn away from worthwhile published lore just because I'm using my own 17+ year-old homebrew rules-system. Granted, it's unlikely I'll ever use most of the rules-stuff now being published for 4e -- but I'll eagerly snap up worthwhile setting material if I can see ways in which it'll work with my own campaigns.
Speaking of the "Dungeons and Dragons " banner.....it still irks me that on the novels the main banner is now huge kittens D&dD, while the forgotten forgotten realms tag is almost imperceptible! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
Edited by - The Red Walker on 20 Sep 2010 13:31:35 |
|
|
|
idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 16:35:21
|
| Then I'm not the only one who doesn't like that change, that's good. I guess it makes sense with WotC's whole spiel about every setting being core so the D&D part is more important to them than the Forgotten Realms part, but I like a more prominent Forgotten Realms logo. Still, that's not enough to hurt my enjoyment of the novels on its own, it just makes them jump out at me less when I see them on a bookshelf. |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4491 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 16:47:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If it wasn't a viable strategy, Paizo wouldn't be doing nearly as well as it's doing now.
And if you don't give a rat's behind about the lore, you're prolly not going out of your way to play in a setting that is defined by the volume of it's lore.
I was under the impression that much of Paizo's content was rules-driven, attempting to refurbish and polish the 3.5 ruleset. Much of their supplements like the Advanced Player's Guide, PF Core rulebook, etc...is just more rules (which I'm fine with) but it does take priority over their Lore.
And last time I checked D&D was a game. Involving the lore into a gaming supplement is nice and all, but to some people the "crunch" defines if the supplement is worth buying or not. I feel WotC didn't have much to offer in the way of "crunch" without further creating disparity in the rules so they went in another direction. Creating books with nothing but lore, history, and story-plots is nice and all but I don't think it would sell to the the general public. |
Edited by - Diffan on 18 Sep 2010 16:49:07 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 17:01:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If it wasn't a viable strategy, Paizo wouldn't be doing nearly as well as it's doing now.
And if you don't give a rat's behind about the lore, you're prolly not going out of your way to play in a setting that is defined by the volume of it's lore.
I was under the impression that much of Paizo's content was rules-driven, attempting to refurbish and polish the 3.5 ruleset. Much of their supplements like the Advanced Player's Guide, PF Core rulebook, etc...is just more rules (which I'm fine with) but it does take priority over their Lore.
And last time I checked D&D was a game. Involving the lore into a gaming supplement is nice and all, but to some people the "crunch" defines if the supplement is worth buying or not. I feel WotC didn't have much to offer in the way of "crunch" without further creating disparity in the rules so they went in another direction. Creating books with nothing but lore, history, and story-plots is nice and all but I don't think it would sell to the the general public.
Paizo has built an entire campaign setting, with monthly sourcebooks for that setting. The Pathfinder RPG came out after the Campaign Setting and many sourcebooks. And like the Realms sourcebooks of 1E and 2E, Paizo's sourcebooks are mostly lore with just a little bit of rules -- they are not like the FR books of 3E, where a sizable portion of the book was given over to rules and statblocks.
D&D is a game, but your game has to be set somewhere. If you're buying D&D material for a setting, then you want more info about the setting. If you're just playing a generic and/or homebrew setting, then stuff published for another setting isn't of much use to you.
So make splatbooks for people that want rules, and setting-specific sourcebooks for people that want a detailed setting. This worked for TSR for years, it worked for WotC until Hasbro got involved, and it's working for Paizo now. And it worked for other game publishers, too. Books with "nothing but lore, history, and story-plots" have sold well in the past for TSR/WotC, they've sold well for other companies, and it's working well for Paizo now. So it's obviously a viable business model.
Just because it's not what WotC is using now doesn't mean it's a bad model. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 17:05:27
|
| I think Wooly was referring to Paizo's campaign setting world of Golarion which has had numerous lore-based supplements published for it rather than the Pathfinder rulebooks themselves. Also, the Classic X revisited line of books by Paizo, from what I've heard, are more about lore than mechanics though I haven't gotten the chance to read them all so I may be mistaken about that. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 19:29:22
|
ALL Paizo Pathfinder/Golarion books contain lore about their world, which is why it is ever-evolving. The adventures themselves are not cheesy 'dungeon crawls' harkening back to the early days of RPGing, but rather well thought-out adventure arcs that take place in a vibrant, living world.
There's something to be said about those nostalgic early days of D&D... but do we really want to go back to Coca-Cola Golems and Keebler Elves?
The genre has matured, and so has its players. Most 'old timers' prefer a rich tapestry and heavy RP.
But we were all kids once, and we liked to just get to the damn dungeon and kill some stuff, so we could get 'goodies' and lots of EP. The story didn't matter back then - getting 'stuff' did.
And it is from that point of view that the new D&D game was designed. Hasbro is a TOY company - its target demographic are children. Paizo doesn't want children - it wants adults to play their games, and they built their structure around pleasing the already-existing fanbase.
There is room for both. In 20 years those '4e kids' will want something more substantial, just as we did. WotC's drive to bring in new blood is a worthy effort, and I applaud them for it. Maybe by then Paizo will be running out of fresh ideas, and someone new will take up the mantle - who knows? So long as people keep dreaming, there is room for everybody.
NOW, although I think WotC is doing something positive, I think they need to look up a certain word in the dictionary...
ADVERTISING.
Learn it.... LIVE it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 18 Sep 2010 19:31:18 |
|
|
|
froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 20:31:01
|
Nice article, thanks for posting it.
Sounds like a new edition to me, no more or less so then 3e/3.5, or even 1e/2e. An 'incremental' edition, mind you, not a full one. I personally think of 2e as 1.5 these days.
I respect Mike Mearls, and purchased several of products he worked on when he was still with Monte Cook - too bad they headed for different camps.
That article, if nothing else, has pushed me toward using Essentials to teach the game to a younger audience. I have always been about bringing new players to the table, which is something I found hard to do in the 3e era. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4491 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 20:34:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by froglegg
Now try and say that this is not 4.5 now.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_271/8109-Red-Box-Renaissance
John
Pretty easy, it's not 4.5. The reasons behind the designes for Essentials is just what the article said, it's attempting to draw in older fans with it's different mechanics while keeping it simple for newer players to gain entry to. None (yes, none) of the content in Essentials replaces or over-writes what has come in previous installments of 4E. Yes, there are changes to how certain classes work, but we even saw that with Psionics and their power point system. Psionics don't have any Encounter powers in any of the classes....yet it's not a revision.
There have been some changes to the rules just prior to the Essentials making their debut, but these changes would've happened regardless of the Essentials coming out or not. So, if you could, point out to me how this could be an edition revision akin to 3.0 to 3.5? |
|
|
|
Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 22:54:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Who needs more splat books? I want lots of lore, like they gave us with 1 and 2E. Not the endless parade of rules that was 3.x.
2E especially was loaded with books filled with rules. Lots and lots of rules.
Yes, the Realms saw several books that were lore laiden, but those books were also chock full of rules. Lots and lots of rules, some of which broke the game or were so exclusive as to be DM only and not for the players. (Can you say "Elven High Magic"? Can you say "Specialty Priest"? Can you say "Spell Mantle"? So can I.)
3E by itself had lots of rulebooks. No different than 2E there. Realms sourcebooks in 3E had lots of rules too, but they were also filled with a lot of lore.
It's a meme—and a false one at that—to characterize 2E as mostly lore and 3E as mostly rules. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 23:26:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Who needs more splat books? I want lots of lore, like they gave us with 1 and 2E. Not the endless parade of rules that was 3.x.
2E especially was loaded with books filled with rules. Lots and lots of rules.
Yes, the Realms saw several books that were lore laiden, but those books were also chock full of rules. Lots and lots of rules, some of which broke the game or were so exclusive as to be DM only and not for the players. (Can you say "Elven High Magic"? Can you say "Specialty Priest"? Can you say "Spell Mantle"? So can I.)
3E by itself had lots of rulebooks. No different than 2E there. Realms sourcebooks in 3E had lots of rules too, but they were also filled with a lot of lore.
It's a meme—and a false one at that—to characterize 2E as mostly lore and 3E as mostly rules.
Unlike 3E, crunch had only a small part in 2E sourcebooks. Usually it was a few pages of spells and magical items, and maybe some monsters. In 3E, most of the sourcebooks had a sizable portion given over to PrCs, feats, and statblocks. And if there were spells and monsters, then that was even less room for lore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2010 : 23:57:25
|
I don't know about that, the Volo's guide books seem to be almost all lore. I just flipped through Volo's Guide to the Dalelands and there is one new Priest spell and 7 magic items for a 236 page book. Volo's Guide to the North is similarly bare, 12 pages at the end, out of 237, describe a Wardmist, 2 monsters, 4 magic items, and 3 spells. Of course those are dedicated lore books, not every book is going to be quite so filled with lore. Code of the Harpers then is about 2/3rds lore to 1/3rd mechanics if you count the pages of NPCs to be about half lore and half mechanics, so if you counted those fully as mechanics, ignoring the pages of story and information, you could maybe go as high as 50/50 or you could call the stats and magic item descriptions in them more lore than mechanics and get a split of closer to 75/25 lore.
I'm not going to filter through all my other 2e Realms books right this moment but so far the admittedly skewed Volo's Guide books and the typical, in my opinion, Code of the Harpers seem to back the high lore to mechanics ratio that is claimed. I don't know if it's a big enough discrepancy compared to 3e and 3.5e books to be considered significant but 2e does seem to have an edge considering they have a series of books, the Volo's Guide series, that is almost completely devoted to lore. |
Edited by - idilippy on 18 Sep 2010 23:58:38 |
|
|
|
Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2010 : 04:07:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unlike 3E, crunch had only a small part in 2E sourcebooks.
On average you're going to get more lore from a random 2E book than from a 3E book. But that's not because rules crunch had a minimalist presence in 2E Realms sourcebooks to begin with.
The 2E Realms library, lore-laiden though it was, is not something that was just lore with a side helping of rules. Not in the slightest. 2E Realms sourcebooks were filled with mechanics, spells and magic items. They also introducted combersome, often broken and bizare rules to the AD&D game that 3E thankfully did away with.
Although in the instance of the Elven High Mage (and High Magic in general) the back-of-the-book Prestige Class for the EHM was really a rather pathetic—seemingly last minute—example of pure rules that didn't improve on what came before in 2E.
I'm guessing that's a good example of what you (Wooly) remember as the worst of the rules presence in 3E books. It's true there were other PrCs like the EHM that were just as bad.
Prestige Classes that were written properly for the Realms melded lore and mechanics. In other words, well written PrCs aren't just all rules: instead they teach you about some aspect of the setting lore and allow you to better fit your character around that lore.
The PrCs written in Lost Empires of Faerùn are examples of how it's done right (on average they get a 4 page write up each). |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 20 Sep 2010 17:28:59 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2010 : 04:43:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
Prestige Classes that were written properly for the Realms melded lore and mechanics. In other words, well written PrCs aren't just all rules: instead they teach you about some aspect of the setting lore and allow your to better fit your character around that lore.
I'm inclined to agree.
On the rare occasion when I did actually partake of 3e Realms rules, I often found myself being drawn more fully to those few PrCs that offered a competent mix of both rules and lore. It was a refreshing take from the more "dry" and "static" feel of the heavily rules-only PrCs that peppered many 3e D&D books in the early days of the new edition.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2010 : 21:39:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by froglegg
Now try and say that this is not 4.5 now.
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_271/8109-Red-Box-Renaissance
John
Pretty easy, it's not 4.5. The reasons behind the designes for Essentials is just what the article said, it's attempting to draw in older fans with it's different mechanics while keeping it simple for newer players to gain entry to. None (yes, none) of the content in Essentials replaces or over-writes what has come in previous installments of 4E. Yes, there are changes to how certain classes work, but we even saw that with Psionics and their power point system. Psionics don't have any Encounter powers in any of the classes....yet it's not a revision.
There have been some changes to the rules just prior to the Essentials making their debut, but these changes would've happened regardless of the Essentials coming out or not. So, if you could, point out to me how this could be an edition revision akin to 3.0 to 3.5?
In 4th edition the fighter has thoes powers if you will then in the red box the fighter dosent have them anymore. That = a revision or 4.5 just like the ranger in 3.0 gained stuff in 3.5 gaining or loseing it is a revision. So essentials = 4.5
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
Edited by - froglegg on 19 Sep 2010 21:40:30 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
What were they thinking?
