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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 04:46:36
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| I always liked Ravendas, aka Lord Cutter. She was in a few books. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 07:54:34
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
I always liked Ravendas, aka Lord Cutter. She was in a few books.
At her current status, it's unlikely she'll rise to Archvillainess. She's just a fighter, albeit a pretty excellent one. She has to learn magic first.  |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 09:16:35
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Well, the transition to as well as 4E lore provided a host of spoilers for us pre-Spellplague campaigners, like ... Triel getting killed by Quenthel (methinks the usual "just because" drow rule), the durthan being chased out of Rashemen (and thus existence), the Loviatar-priestesses ruling Dambrath getting burned at the stake (aye right, cheers for that!) during a rebellion, nigh all zulkirs of Thay being killed ... you name it.
BTW, for me this started with the destruction of Ched Nasad, where the most powerful priestesses known of the drow were killed during the fall o the city ... when you would imagine that 25th level lasses, including a vampiress had a few back-up's at hand (especially after witnessing the events of Lolth's silence for a few months). |
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Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 09:40:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Well, the transition to as well as 4E lore provided a host of spoilers for us pre-Spellplague campaigners, like ... Triel getting killed by Quenthel (methinks the usual "just because" drow rule), the durthan being chased out of Rashemen (and thus existence), the Loviatar-priestesses ruling Dambrath getting burned at the stake (aye right, cheers for that!) during a rebellion, nigh all zulkirs of Thay being killed ... you name it.
BTW, for me this started with the destruction of Ched Nasad, where the most powerful priestesses known of the drow were killed during the fall o the city ... when you would imagine that 25th level lasses, including a vampiress had a few back-up's at hand (especially after witnessing the events of Lolth's silence for a few months).
Not all who read this scroll are pre-Spellplague campaigners. Some are just "infants" to the Realms. So it's still imperative that I should have put spoilers in the title. It's just that I often forgot because I myself don't mind being spoiled in other scrolls, whether there's a warning or not. 
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 09:57:16
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Voted Quenthel. Don't know about female liches.
quote:
BTW, for me this started with the destruction of Ched Nasad, where the most powerful priestesses known of the drow were killed during the fall o the city ... when you would imagine that 25th level lasses, including a vampiress had a few back-up's at hand (especially after witnessing the events of Lolth's silence for a few months).
Yeah, Shyntlara was cool. Liked her. Pity she's not on the list.
And 4e just created lots of havoc and destroyed cool villains and heroes alike... |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 10:20:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Voted Quenthel. Don't know about female liches.
And 4e just created lots of havoc and destroyed cool villains and heroes alike...
I do not want to sound like a defender of 4E. But there are changes with the characters that balance the disappointing with the fascinating.
For one, while I find getting rid of all the zulkirs quite disheartening (if not utterly ridiculous), I like it that they (for I am sure that it's not just Richard who decided on it) put Szass Tam in his rightful place after centuries of scheming.
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Ruul
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 13:08:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Well, the transition to as well as 4E lore provided a host of spoilers for us pre-Spellplague campaigners, like ... Triel getting killed by Quenthel (methinks the usual "just because" drow rule), the durthan being chased out of Rashemen (and thus existence), the Loviatar-priestesses ruling Dambrath getting burned at the stake (aye right, cheers for that!) during a rebellion, nigh all zulkirs of Thay being killed ... you name it.
BTW, for me this started with the destruction of Ched Nasad, where the most powerful priestesses known of the drow were killed during the fall o the city ... when you would imagine that 25th level lasses, including a vampiress had a few back-up's at hand (especially after witnessing the events of Lolth's silence for a few months).
Where is it mentioned that Quenthel killed Triel? I must have missed that one. |
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capnvan
Senior Scribe
USA
592 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 13:12:46
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To my mind, one of the prerequisites for arch-villainess-hood is marriage.
If you're not making some man (or woman!)'s life miserable, how can you expect to become truly evil? |
"Saving a life, though regrettable, is a small price to pay for a whole lifetime of unfettered killing." |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 13:30:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Ruul
Where is it mentioned that Quenthel killed Triel? I must have missed that one.
FRCG. Menzoberranzan description.
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SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Ruul
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 14:21:37
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| Well heck, I must have totally missed it. I'll have to check it out when I get home. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 15:58:16
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
To my mind, one of the prerequisites for arch-villainess-hood is marriage.
If you're not making some man (or woman!)'s life miserable, how can you expect to become truly evil?
Well, Lallara and Quenthel are "truly evil." And having husbands for them is just having toys to play and throw away once they're bored with them.  In other words, they and other evil woman characters do not have to marry just to have some playthings or ephemeral pleasures. 
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 19:54:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
When the heck did this happen? more importantly, HOW did that happen, when Quenthel was "eaten" by Lolth in WotSQ? Triel was still alive in the LP series.... I hate retcons....
WotSQ SPOILER
No she was not. In fact, she was the only one allowed to returned to Menzoberranzan to spread the news of Lolth 'resurrection'. The one eaten was Danifae, and she came back as Lolth new face instant later. Halisstra's fate is covered in the lady penitent trilogy. Every males perished at some point.
So, if Quenthel killed Triel some years after (something she would have done sooner or later), it can not be considered a retcon.
EDIT: I remember now that Valas, the ranger, also survived because he left once the group reached the Abyss, his contract completed. |
Edited by - Kilvan on 02 Jul 2010 19:58:36 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 20:08:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
When the heck did this happen? more importantly, HOW did that happen, when Quenthel was "eaten" by Lolth in WotSQ? Triel was still alive in the LP series.... I hate retcons....
WotSQ SPOILER
No she was not. In fact, she was the only one allowed to returned to Menzoberranzan to spread the news of Lolth 'resurrection'. The one eaten was Danifae, and she came back as Lolth new face instant later. Halisstra's fate is covered in the lady penitent trilogy. Every males perished at some point.
So, if Quenthel killed Triel some years after (something she would have done sooner or later), it can not be considered a retcon.
EDIT: I remember now that Valas, the ranger, also survived because he left once the group reached the Abyss, his contract completed.
No, not a retcon. Quenthel had always believed her sister to be incompetent and lacked the strong will to lead the city. In fact, she (and the entire Menzo-folks) knew that the peak of her ambition was just to be a high priestess of Lolth. Seeing it on a different angle, Quenthel just did her a favor by killing her.
Besides, it's hardly a surprise to see drow killing each other. That's part of their nature.
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Ruul
Seeker
USA
64 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 20:25:42
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| This is almost as bad as them killing off Halaster. I demand a trilogy to cover the details! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 21:38:19
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| I concur. They can't just throw that in there without even a hint of explanation! And you're right kilvan, I forgot about that. I must have gotten the two mixed up. It happens. And not to put too fine a point on it dennis, but- Duh. Of course it's their nature. They're drow, after all.... LOL!!And I still hold that Triel was more evil, even if her sister did kill her. She just got careless, is all. Evil doesn't mean infallible, after all. Part of why I think that is how she tried to trap Liriel into the clerical school- that is just all kinds of evil!! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 21:46:13
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Which all goes to prove that nothing any NPC did, and certainly nothing any PC did, ever changed anything.
Had more here, but whatever... does it really matter anymore?  |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 22:05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I concur. They can't just throw that in there without even a hint of explanation! And you're right kilvan, I forgot about that. I must have gotten the two mixed up. It happens. And not to put too fine a point on it dennis, but- Duh. Of course it's their nature. They're drow, after all.... LOL!!And I still hold that Triel was more evil, even if her sister did kill her. She just got careless, is all. Evil doesn't mean infallible, after all. Part of why I think that is how she tried to trap Liriel into the clerical school- that is just all kinds of evil!!
"Not to put too fine a point on it," Alystra, but - Duh! Of course evil is fallible. Even evil deities are, so how much more are their "toys." 
As to Triel forcing Liriel to study in AT, well, that's what Quenthel would have also done had the decision been hers to make.
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 22:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
I always liked Ravendas, aka Lord Cutter. She was in a few books.
At her current status, it's unlikely she'll rise to Archvillainess. She's just a fighter, albeit a pretty excellent one. She has to learn magic first.
Why? Why does an archvillainess need magic? She did plenty of taken over with just her wits. She's destroyed wizards solo without really even trying. She has perfect control over others.
Not all archvillains are magic only. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2010 : 22:26:48
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by dracons
I always liked Ravendas, aka Lord Cutter. She was in a few books.
At her current status, it's unlikely she'll rise to Archvillainess. She's just a fighter, albeit a pretty excellent one. She has to learn magic first.
Why? Why does an archvillainess need magic? She did plenty of taken over with just her wits. She's destroyed wizards solo without really even trying. She has perfect control over others.
Not all archvillains are magic only.
Why need magic? Goodness, in a world that is awash with magic, it is the greatest advantage one has over those who cannot wield it. Can you name a fighter that is at the same time an archvillain, has done evil feats and is as long-staying as Tam, Larloch or Manshoon?
Try replacing Alassra with a fighter and let's see what will Thay make of Aglarond.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 01:03:33
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| Well, there is the the fact that a fighter, no matter how strong he becomes, has no 'easy' way to immortality like a wizard. So I guess it'd be easier to achieve greatness, the kind that Tam, Larloch or Manshoon have, if you can wield magic. Try naming people whose name will be forever remembered without life-extending effects, and you will find that there is as many non-magic wielder than those who do (or at least, the ratio will be balanced a little bit more). Of course, elves will propably negate my argument here. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 01:28:14
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One famous fighter who achieved immortality by drinking an elixir is Malark. He's even older than Tam. But even he realized that no matter how strong he becomes as a fighter, he'll never be strong enough to deal with the ruthless Red Wizards and be an effective right hand of Tam. That is why he studied magic and eventually became a Red Wizard himself.
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 02:00:05
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Oh, and what exactly has Larloch, or Manshoon done exactly that is, evil....?
OMG they use MAGIC. Larloch spends centries in his tower trying to learn how to use super portals. Yeah. Real evil guy that one.
Manshoon became leaders of guilds for money. Wow. Evil. I'm going to have freaking nightmares.
At least Lord Cutter is you know, killing people, taking over cities, making it so people cannot be with their loved ones just for the hell of it, keeping children prisoner. Real deeds that are kinda well, evil. Something a Archvillain would do. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 02:33:09
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I don't really care about Manshoon. After all, for me he's nothing but a cockroach, annoying but hard to get rid of...He could die, launch a fashion show, pay earth a visit....for all I care. I just mentioned him because, like a cockroach, he's been around awhile. And he's killed people not just to get where he's at now (which I don't give a damn), but to eliminate or try to eliminate his enemies (El, among them).
As of Larloch, well, let me reiterate my response to capnvan's comment (in page 1) that Larloch as per canon is a lawful evil: “It's just that I don't see his evil deeds in the Realms, and for me a "seemingly absent" evil is neutral, or almost.” So although we have more or less the same sentiments towards Larloch, let's just drop it 'cause we cannot refute canon.
Now with Tam, well, needless to say, he is anything but evil, albeit a philosophical one. The Haunted Lands trilogy is more than enough proof.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 03:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Oh, and what exactly has Larloch, or Manshoon done exactly that is, evil....?
OMG they use MAGIC. Larloch spends centries in his tower trying to learn how to use super portals. Yeah. Real evil guy that one.
Manshoon became leaders of guilds for money. Wow. Evil. I'm going to have freaking nightmares.
At least Lord Cutter is you know, killing people, taking over cities, making it so people cannot be with their loved ones just for the hell of it, keeping children prisoner. Real deeds that are kinda well, evil. Something a Archvillain would do.
Manshoon founded and was the leader of a group of backstabbing folks (often, literally backstabbing) that killed each other and anyone else who got in their way, whether for political, mercantile, magical, or personal advancement. Is that not evil enough? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 03 Jul 2010 03:14:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 03:21:01
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| Sounds like Wallstreet to me |
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TheMadMage
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 03:38:56
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| Yes she would need magic. Or atleast some sort of nigh indestructible sheild against magic. Cause unfortunately you can be the best most wonderful fighter EVER and you get hit with a fireball (a semi weak spell) with no protection..... your just as fried as a pathetic fighter. This is towards the "why cant a fighter be an arch-villainess" part. |
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Edited by - TheMadMage on 03 Jul 2010 03:45:05 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 04:41:45
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Oh, and what exactly has Larloch, or Manshoon done exactly that is, evil....?
OMG they use MAGIC. Larloch spends centries in his tower trying to learn how to use super portals. Yeah. Real evil guy that one.
Manshoon became leaders of guilds for money. Wow. Evil. I'm going to have freaking nightmares.
Perform a search here for Larloch discussion scrolls. That should provide more than enough information as to why concern over some of Larloch's plots provoke many into thinking he's nefariously evil.
As for Manshoon... read any Ed Greenwood book [especially the "Knights of Myth Drannor" trilogy] and you'll soon learn to appreciate the intricate nature of Manshoon's evil schemes. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 04:57:30
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quote:
Originally posted by TheMadMage
Yes she would need magic. Or atleast some sort of nigh indestructible sheild against magic. Cause unfortunately you can be the best most wonderful fighter EVER and you get hit with a fireball (a semi weak spell) with no protection..... your just as fried as a pathetic fighter. This is towards the "why cant a fighter be an arch-villainess" part.
True, she'd need magic. But not just "nigh indestructible sheild against magic," for even though she'd be able to protect herself, how in the world will she win if she can't fight back using the Art? For her to succeed, she'd need magic both for defense and offense. In short, she cannot hope to be an archvillainess unless she becomes a wizard, a priestess, or a druid at least.
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2010 : 05:33:49
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Now with Tam, well, needless to say, he is anything but evil, albeit a philosophical one. The Haunted Lands trilogy is more than enough proof.
Totally agree about Tam. He is evil. That's why I didn't include him.
As for Manshoon's backstabbing group, that is where Lord Cutter is from. She is a member, and used their forces quite well. Again, magic isn't always needed by itself to be used. After all, if you can control several mages to do your dirty work, use them as pawns and as red herrings, it be very difficult to get to you. That's why I admire her so much. She isn't a mage, and yet she can still take them on and win more often then not. Being a archvillain is being something that can constently harm you, and She has done that to Celadon and others. She's a bitch and proud of it. Leader of a city, incredible fighter, major backstabber.
I'm not trying to be rude, but I just think that being a magic user shouldn't be the entire criteria of a archvillain. Archvillains are the ones that you cannot beat, cannot stop, and who can always find ways to harm you and destroy anything you have just for giggles and to see you cry when you have nothing to stop them with. She did this with her fighting ability, not magic. Sure, magic users are powerful and can do alot, but even she can beat you. Sets traps, use other wizards to draw them into areas of Dead magic. If you can't use the art, that sword just hurts all the more.
I do agree all those others are great, but she should have a place on the rooster, even if it is a low part. |
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Why not an Arch-villainess? [potential SPOILERS]
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