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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
616 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 05:20:36
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Okay, so this is what I'm trying to understand: The change in magic following Mystra's death resulted in the Spellplague, which resulted in a massive change in most (if not all) aspects of Toril and the cosmos. Not only does this give rise to the 4th Edition mechanics of spellcasting (and the manners that all classes function in general), but it also drastically reshapes the landscape and social demographics of Faerun/Toril.
I realize that numerous arcane spellcasters and magic-based items were drastically affected by the Spellplague. What gets me is how arcane magic is generally perceived by numerous nations throughout Faerun and/or Toril now.
Here are some facts I know for sure:
1) Shade is relatively active around where the Anauroch desert was.
2) Imaskar is back in existance, with a similar scope of magic, but otherwise rather different culture (namely the absence of slavery).
3) The Harpers are nonexistant now, and the Zhentarim are completely under the observance of the Cyric-worshipping Darkhold. Harper-related arcane magic practices seem to be no more.
4) Thay is but a shadow of its former self. The Red Wizards are pretty much extinct.
5) The Chosen of Mystra are all gone saved for Elminster and The Symbul, who are slightly diminished in power anyways.
Now for questions.
1) Is Shade looking to expand its holdings on Faerun, or have setbacks pre-Spellplague made them more reclusive?
2) Besides the memories of Imaskar's previous follies, how fearful are other nations of Imaskar?
3) How much the current Zhentarim practice arcane magic compared to divine magic?
4) Are there any organizations intent on suppressing arcane magic in post-Spellplague Faerun/Toril, namely any that could quite possibly become belligerent/aggressive towards arcane-oriented nations/groups?
I'm just looking to put this into use for a potential campaign arc for DMs to use. Thanks in advance. :)
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Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 08:56:55
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As to question #2 (and #4): Chessenta is comprised of former slaves of Imaskar and looks upon High Imaskar with hatred. Though not actively pursuing conflict with High Imaskar, Chessenta nevertheless deals harshly with magic users, subjugating them and branding them with a tattoo rumors say keeps them from using their powers unless a password is spoken.
As to question #4: Amn is still bent on curtailing magic use to a select few. Namely House Selemchant, who control the Cowled Wizards. Most of this order are mercenaries who carry out assassinations against anyone who tries to bring magic to bear against Amn's ruling Council of Five. The Emerald Cabal opposes the Cowled Wizards, but almost no other magic users are able to do so.
Hope this helps! |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 09:10:57
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| About fact 3: I think that they do not exist as organization they were on their peak, but some nets are still in existence. We must wait for update on this fact before conclusion. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 10:55:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Sill Alias
About fact 3: I think that they do not exist as organization they were on their peak, but some nets are still in existence. We must wait for update on this fact before conclusion.
The Harpers still exist, but is now a very small orginization focusing on opposing Netheril (Sidebar: Harpers of Luruar, 4e FRCG p. 146). |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2010 : 14:10:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Here are some facts I know for sure:
3) The Harpers are nonexistant now, and the Zhentarim are completely under the observance of the Cyric-worshipping Darkhold. Harper-related arcane magic practices seem to be no more.
As Tyranthraxus stated, the Harpers are still around and their chief mission is to diminish Shades advances further into Faerun. Also, I can still see small cells of Harpers working to thwart any evil be it the Serpent Kingdom and it's slave trade or Zhentarim raiders. Also, I think most of the Zhents are under Cyric-worshipping commanders and Darkhold but I'm sure there are still a few Banite followers around as well.
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
4) Thay is but a shadow of its former self. The Red Wizards are pretty much extinct.
I think Thay is more powerful now than they were before the Spellplauge. I mean, Szass Tam almost completed a ritual that would've made him nigh unstoppable but was stopped just before hand. And the most of the country is made up of undead who follow Szass Tam. As far as the Red Wizards are concerned, they've cut their ties with the nation of Thay and I see them as independant contractors for magic. They make magic and distribute it through-out Faerun with no other agenda for the advancement of Thay.
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
5) The Chosen of Mystra are all gone saved for Elminster and The Symbul, who are slightly diminished in power anyways.
I don't know what the fate of Laeral was since I never read the Blackstaff novel. We know the Symbul and El are alive. Storm might be gone but no canon source has said she perished. We know Alustriel passed away and her son took over Silverymoon. Who's left that are unaccounted for? My knowledge of the Chosen is sort of limited.
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
1) Is Shade looking to expand its holdings on Faerun, or have setbacks pre-Spellplague made them more reclusive?
They've taken over Sembia and I think through them, they'll try to expand to Cormyr and into the Dalelands. So yea, conquest is definitly something they're looking to do.
quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
3) How much the current Zhentarim practice arcane magic compared to divine magic?
I'd probably say just as much as pre-spellplague. We don't have too much detail about their organization in the past 100 years, but arcane spellcasters have made a dramatic comeback so I don't see why the divine would have a greater number.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 02:27:01
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---Warning: Spoilers----
Answer to #1:
Yes. As Telamont said in Twilight War, the main goal of the Reborn Netheril is world domination, which he emphasized should have been achieved long ago had Karsus not been foolish enough to meddle with a goddess. As to the lands they've conquered, well, Sembia is practically theirs now. And they have several agents in Cormyr, Waterdeep, and several neighboring and even far realms. But it is important that we consider Telamont's words: he wouldn't want to draw the collective attention of Faerun's powerful. He is powerful, but he'll be dust, or considering that he's pure shadowstuff now, be a wisp of smoke if all the powerful beings ---heroes and villains alike--- unite against him. The taking of Sembia is an example of his intention to "strive" to be a little subtle. He stirred chaos in that realm through intrigue and political machinations alone; and put pressure on Rivalen to end the Shadowstorm as swift as possible ere all their enemies take an unwanted interest. In line with this subtlety, we can expect that it will be awhile, perhaps a very long while, before Shade takes another realm of consequence. But had Telamont wanted to take some nearly insignificant realms (say Innarlith for argument's sake), I guess he could have achieved it already.
Answer to #2:
I think "fearful" is not the word, but hate. In Richard's new novel, The Captive Flame: Book 1 of the Brotherhood of the Griffon, Chessentans, being former Imaskari slaves, hated the Imaskari and all magic-users. They do not yet engage in a war against Imaskar, but it is coming (in book 2 or 3). Chessentan vessels were raided by pirates believed to be agents of Imaskar. It was for this same reason that Shala, the War Hero of Chessenta, dismissed the appeals of the Imaskaran ambassador who was sent to ensure a good alliance between his realm and Shala's.
Comments on your facts #4:
Not a "shadow" at all, but a stronger and darker image of her former self. Szass Tam finally united Thay. Legions of undead (whose population far exceeds the humans') roam the lands night and day. And with Szass Tam's intention to activate another set of Dread Rings, we can expect him to conquer a realm or two in which to install such rings of power. Perhaps Aglarond, now that the Simbul is weaker. Or maybe Rashemen. Or mayhap a distant realm that's far easier to take over. 
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Every beginning has an end. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 19:09:20
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Chosen surviving also include Storm Silverhand (with much reduced magic abilities) per the preview chapter of Elminster Must Die.
And as to Imaskar....they are involved and pop up around the edges (stuff like a state they ally with and who they areagainst,etc) of the first Brotherhoos of the Griffi. Novel and it seems they shiould be more so in the rest of the trilogy. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2010 : 22:46:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Chosen surviving also include Storm Silverhand (with much reduced magic abilities) per the preview chapter of Elminster Must Die.
Interesting....I hope the Lady Mage of Waterdeep survived too.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 01:14:45
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
Chosen surviving also include Storm Silverhand (with much reduced magic abilities) per the preview chapter of Elminster Must Die.
Interesting....I hope the Lady Mage of Waterdeep survived too.
I have a link to that samplechapter around here somewhere, if another scribe doesn't post it for you I'll slip it int this scroll when I get back home.
And I have vague memories on something with Laeral post spell plague, but tis evading me for the moment. I'll try to dig that up as well! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 02:34:44
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I'm fairly certain Alustriel is dead, or at least, people believe her to be so (but then again, thats what Aglarondans think about the Simbul).
I also remember something about Laeral being dead, but that too, could just be rumor. Something about her moving to that new city in the High Moor (you know, the one that isn't even mentioned again, after being so important to create), to raise her twins.
I could, of course, be getting it all confused with something else, I'm really not positive about any of that. Sorry. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jul 2010 02:35:19 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
616 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 02:45:51
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Interesting info so far, folks.
Now, what I was aiming for was to make something similar to both the Chantry from the game Dragon Age: Origins and the real-life Spanish Inquisition, in which divine-powered NPCs (ie: Avengers, Clerics, Paladins and/or Evokers) - and the church/religious group they stand for - aim to take on and eradicate a certain group of arcane-spellcasting people.
I was thinking, perhaps, one or more of the Utgardt tribes declares open war on Shade, and casualties/collateral damage are a cause of concern for the PCs. However, I would just as well hope for a more organized and more advanced religious culture would come into play.
For example... could, let's say, a sect or church of Amaunator potentially crusade against the Cult of the Dragon, or maybe even potentially go up against Thay?
Overall, this is what I was aiming for. Sound reasonable for a campaign arc for players? No, I don't play or DM myself; I'm just making useful ideas for other DMs. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2010 : 04:50:05
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Interesting - that is the way I went with my Shoon Imperium (an empire still very much alive in MY Realms). My Shoon is more Romanesque though, nothing canon, and composed of abut a dozen smaller kingdoms (all taken from canon, but twisted by me). By 'Romanesque' I mean the culture, not necessarily the way the folks look, or dress.
Calimshan got moved - its over on the Shining sea now, where it belonged.
Anyway, I have an Inquisition-like thing going on there, and I have adapted things from other settings as well, like the 'White Cloaks' from WoT, and was thinking of even adding-in the collars they put on Spell casters, borrowed from both WoT and SoT. IIRC, Kalimar had a magic-hating kingdom as well, but I barely remember anything from that incredibly uninteresting setting.
Anyway, I liked what I did there so much, I decided to port it wholesale into my Homebrew World (with a different name of course), and have most of the campaign revolve around that. Religious Zealots worshipping a 'Sun God', to the point where their Knights go into surrounding kingdoms and brutalize village Wise-women and Hedge Wizards, seeking to route-out all evil.
I even played on the Night vs Day angle, and have a moon goddess (a'la Hecate) established in an Egyptian-like Kingdom, where a group of priestesses train women to fight against 'the oppressive Sun'.
VERY RC church vs pagan Goddess-worship, with an FR-like fantasy spin on everything. Hopefully I will have the website up sometime in 2012. If the world ends, I guess I'm off the hook. 
As for your post-plague scenario, I have always said the era between 3rd and 4th edition was the most interesting, and an opportunity missed. What you have right there is an excuse for a DM to use any of the older material, as he chooses, and change everything else, mixed-in with a socio-economic termoil, migrating populations, and magical chaos.
Pure win.... and they decided to skip forward to when that was all over. 
Anyhow, I would agree that after the initial onslaught of the Spellplague was over, you would having roving bands of 'righteous' who would be hanging Mages from the nearest tree. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jul 2010 05:04:00 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 17:40:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I think "fearful" is not the word, but hate. In Richard's new novel, The Captive Flame: Book 1 of the Brotherhood of the Griffon, Chessentans, being former Imaskari slaves, hated the Imaskari and all magic-users. They do not yet engage in a war against Imaskar, but it is coming (in book 2 or 3). Chessentan vessels were raided by pirates believed to be agents of Imaskar. It was for this same reason that Shala, the War Hero of Chessenta, dismissed the appeals of the Imaskaran ambassador who was sent to ensure a good alliance between his realm and Shala's.
Has this background for Chessenta been explored any? I note in the FRCG, it says that they are 'descended from ancient Imaskari slaves', but I am unaware of any prior lore in that direction.
It was popular speculation among many scribes that apart from the Egyptians and Mesapotamians of ca 19th-23rd century BCE, Imaskar might have abducted Romans and/or Greeks.
I never cared much for the idea myself, though, because even with time not always matching up precisely between Earth and Toril, it seems odd that during one particular crisis in Imaskari's history, they'd take the trouble of abducting not only the two seperate groups they have already been canonically established as enslaving, but also one or two other peoples seperated from the first by at least a millenia and more properly ca 1500+ (1800+ if you want a Romanised Greece) years. In other words, about as close temporally as we are from Attila the Hun.
Or is this statement merely pointing out that the Chessentans are at least partly descended from Untheri, who were Imaskari slaves?
In any case, it seems odd to hold grudges that go back four thousand years, especially if they are about things that were done to remote ancestors of another, distinct culture, which in the meantime has invaded your nation-state multiple times and subjugated it as a province, ruling it in the finest racist autocrat style, with occasional vindictive arbitrariness mixed in.
One group of my ancestors enslaved another group of them a mere thousand years ago, but it's not as if any sane person in Iceland actually holds a grudge against Norway for their crimes against Scots and Irish. In the real world, you'll note that all the 'ancient' racial or cultural hatreds actually stem from fairly recent events.
There's a good reason for that. In most cases, a list of ancestors for anyone that goes a thousand years back in time will be a work of fiction. Even attempting to trace what races inhabited particular ancient polities usually invites more answers from pseudoscientific websites maintained by aliminum-headwear-sporting folks who believe in the supremacy of some particular race* and, possibly, vampire elf serpent-people alien dragons**, than it ever does from real scientists.
How many Americans today can legitimately claim to have ancestral grievences stemming from something done by one group of possibly proto-Celtsic persons did to another group of [language and culture not known] humans back when the original inhabitants of the British Isles were displaced?
That's how long four millenia are. It's enough for several subsequent waves of immigrants to flow around, mingle with and spread all the things that make one people different from another; the genetic material, language and culture, so much that it's usually literally impossible to claim that one group of humans living back then is more 'our ancestors' than another.
In Forgotten Realms terms, since the fall of the Imaskari Empire, any potential ancestors of the Chessentans of today have been through four centuries of historically unrecorded events that began with a catastrophic collapse of a civilisation*** (and during which they probably fought a whole lot of ethnic groups and short-lived polities), a founding of two realms of fellow survivors from that long-ago crisis, a war between those two realms, a settling in what was to become Chessenta, a conquest of those lands by Unther, a war between Jhaamdath and Unther that took place on their lands, a genocidal war with orcs that took place on their land, a reconquest by Unther, a murderous elf-summoned tsunami that caused the catastrophic collapse of their neighbours into chaos, about a millenia of increasing misrule by a decadent god-king, several aborted uprisings, a war between their kinfolk over the ocean against Unther, a liberation war of their own against Unther, a conquest of Unther under a legendary warrior hero, a break-up of their empire, at least ten and possibly hundreds of local wars over centuries of time, return of their legendary hero king, misrule and terror under their dragon king, destruction of their legendary hero king, half their land being blown up, the appearance of fantastic landscapes on what used to be their best growing land and a lot more.
The time when anyone was the slave of Imaskar was as far removed from the people who founded Chessenta as the Biblical Nebuchadnezzar is from modern people. Even if we were charitable and counted Chessenta-the-province-of-Untheric-Empire as the founding of the polity, the time gap between that founding and the fall of Imaskar is still more than the time passed between the fall of Teotihuacan and until the arrival of conquisators in Mesoamerica.
And how much did any of the cultures that were there then know about Teotihuacan? Eh, pretty much every people had their conflicting story about it, but no one was close to anything suppoprted by archeological evidence. Why is that? Because a pre-literate society really sucks at keeping records of the distant past.
As slaves fleeing the falling Imaskari Empire, I really doubt that the Chessentans-to-be were a literate people. The Untheris and the Mulhorandi both had forms of writing, but that was supposedly brought by their gods, as they kept nearly nothing of Imaskari origin. The Chessentans, in turn, adopted Untheric writing ca 800-900 years after the fall of Imaskar.
Not to mention that the majority of Chessentans are probably descended from Jhaamdathans in any case. As well as people from the Sword Coast, Heartlands, Shining South and all other areas in the world. Does anyone know how many generations 4,000 years are?
Plausible theories for the location of the people who spoke the ancestral language from which mine is derived**** range pretty much all over Eurasia, with no one being able to state with certainty anything more precise than 'probably not east of... eh, hell, we dunno'.
The irrational way that humans have of classifying themselves into 'teams', the only purpose of which seems to be so that they can exclude others, is well known and the cause of some deeply unfortunate history. But people don't do it on the basis of ancient history so shadowy and distorted with age that it is extremely implausible that even sages would know about it. They do it based on something recent enough so that it still figures in folktales and received wisdom.
Most of the real peoples who have a deep-seated racial conflict going with another 'ethnic group' were actually the same people less than four thousand years ago. Sometimes even less than a couple of hundred years ago.
*Not always White Aryans, oh no. We've moved on. It's a bright new day. We can have cooks believing in Ancient Native Americans in Atlantis, Lemurian Wise Spiritual Mongol Ancestors or, possibly my favourite, the Sumerians as the ancestors of Hungarians (oddly, they seem to have had nothing to do with Samoyeds, Lapps or Estonians, who presumably weren't cool enough to rate their own crazy ranting prophets). Obviously, there are the usual White Pride tin-hat brigade who claim the Sumerians for their own and go on about how they built all early civilisation, invented anything worth knowing until Mein Kampf, and then retired to become whatever particular flavour of White the author likes, but we've had centuries of that. I'm all for a new spin on gob-smacking crazy.
**I did not make that up. That is a real thing that someone believes in. And it's not just one person, because he raised children in his weird secret society cult thing. Also, he met the Queen of England and was photographed with her, like it wasn't even a thing. I didn't get far enough in his magnificently psychadelic ravings to find out if he considered her an unholy abomination of (whatever is opposed to vampiric elven serpent-people dragon aliens) to be destroyed at any cost or the ultimate goddess of vamp-elf-serpent-dragonalien to be kidnapped for a holy moon wedding, but if I were the Queen, I wouldn't want to find out which.
***Itself probably enough to make anything known about the Imaskar Empire distant myths to these people, but fear not, we still have more than three and a half millenia to go.
****Which I guess I can use to pinpoint at least one of the billions of my ancestors. Note that the Chessentans do not speak a language derived from any language spoken by known Imaskari slaves. They abandoned that language, Untheric, because it had been forced on them by their conquerors (and partial ancenstors, too, of course). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 23:16:47
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What I said was a generalization. Not all Chessentans hate spellcasters. Some cities utilize their wizarding population quite well, like Cimbar, or used to, at least, as it is now in ruins.
In The Captive Flame, it appears like in Luthcheq the people's hatred towards wizards is not just due to their long, unfair, and brutal enslavement by their former masters (who were all spellcasters), but also because of their poor understanding of the Art itself. Every malady that cannot be explained or death whose cause cannot be determined is automatically attributed to "evil magic." |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 12 Mar 2012 23:18:02 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 23:28:26
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I wasn't objecting to what you said, necessarily.
You seemed to be referring to some lore about the origins of Chessenta I with which I was unfamiliar. Curious, I desired to know more, if you can, everything that is said about their former slavery to the Imaskari.
Of course, being ever ready to question, even before I had firm data to criticise, I advanced my arguments against the Chessentans having an opinion about the Imaskari Empire at all, considering that it fell long before there was a Chessenta, at least in previously established lore.
If some of them feared wizards, it would be more apt to look closer in history, to elven High Mages who sunk their closest neighbour, to the Black Wizards of Unther and the Red Wizards of Thay, to the Rotting War just over the border in Chondath. At the absolute furthest in history, maybe back to the Orcgate War, caused by meddling wizards. But considering that it took place about as far back from modern Chessentans in 4e as the establishment of the Roman Republic from us modern folk, it wouldn't likely be something that much affected the opinions of normal folk.
After all, how many people today have their political opinions greatly shaped by the Aventine Secession? |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 23:51:46
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That is why I noted I generalized (which probably I shouldn't have), and noted further that though many continue to despise wizards, some cities, like Cimbar, Akanax and Soolabax embraced the existence of wizards and made good use of them.
Time may not be of the essence here, especially if one generation keeps on passing their culture---and that includes their strong hatred towards their former tormentors---to the next. Some things change, and some, apparently don't. And this is one of them. [They were descendants of the Untheri people, who, along with the Mulhorand, were slaves to the Imaskari. Some scars heal, some don't. And even those that do, the mere existence of them reminds those who have them of what was life like then, a life they would (as they believe) relive should they again bow to the supremacy of wizards.]
I'd like to note, too, that at a certain point, when Tchazzar ruled the land, he legalized magic and made laws that (briefly) protected wizards. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Reactions to Arcane Spellcasters post-Spellplague
