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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 13:53:01
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
"Originally, Lurue WAS magic#65533;before Julia Martin added the name #65533;Weave#65533; to my GenCon explanations of #65533;the great web of magic that#65533;s everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril,#65533; Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave. As such, she could teleport without error or limit, through all barriers and spells, was immune to all known magical [and psionic] effects, could raise dead, heal, regenerate and restore with the touch of her horn#65533;and also spew silver fire from it#65533;and so on. Her very proximity dispels illusions and curses, purifies and neutralizes poisons and taints, and purges diseases. And on and on. [To the usual chorus of #65533;Look, yet another all-powerful Greenwood munchkin!#65533; I reply: Yes. Of course. This is THE all-powerful goddess, and she#65533;s also whimsical. We can#65533;t understand why she does what she does, so she can#65533;t be controlled, or act like any sort of tyrannical munchkin, any more than a mountain range or an ocean can be.] She tended to be as curious as a newborn babe, utterly fearless, and kind to injured creatures. And yes, I tucked in the #65533;patron of virgins, but can also make barren wombs bear#65533; folklore, too. Only virgins could ride her, and those who did got that silver hair the Chosen who are Mystra#65533;s daughters all share, and #65533;wild talent#65533; innate magical abilities, and were marked for special tasks and achievements all their lives.
The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now."
Nice. What a surprise. So think, if someone restored Lurue to her rightful place...? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 20:04:28
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Saying a humanocentric deity should be in-charge of magic precludes the evidence that other races had magic long before humans did (or before humans even walked erect).
I picture Lurue being an earlier incarnation of the magic God, related to Chuntea (in her Earth-mother aspect), going back to a time when early man was first starting to play with fire, and began to wonder about the mysteries of the universe. The only problem with that is that we have canon placing Mystryl at the very beginning of Realmspace, so either her 'job description' changed, or Lurue is just another aspect of her (and like I said, an earlier 'edition' of her). Gods don't look like anybody - they appear any way they want to.
Take a look at RW deities from earlier eras - almost none of them are human. You are looking at FR through a pair of modern Earth-colored glasses. In FR, there were races - and THEIR gods - LONG before man ever had the sentience to conceive of such things.
You have no problem with Tiamet or Jergal, yet complain about a Unicorn? 
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Nice. What a surprise. So think, if someone restored Lurue to her rightful place...?
If Lurue were truly an aspect of Mystra - one that she seperated from herself and gave self-will to - it would definately be a good way for WotC/Ed to bring her back (if they were so inclined).
And we have a precedent, sort-of. Many feel that Xvim was merely a construct of Bane, wherein he stored a piece of his godhood just so he could come back, in the unlikely event he was ever destroyed. Now, if Bane was clever enough to do that, why wouldn't Mystra be? She's already been 'killed' twice - I think she would have a fail-safe hidden somewhere (and there also precedents for that, within the Chosen, and she also did that with Midnight). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Jun 2010 19:10:06 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2010 : 21:29:11
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Actually, going back further, I'd say the first god of Magic would be lizard/dragon-kin per the Sarrukh creating the Nether Scrolls.
Hmm... Mayhap the *FIRST* Mystryl was the very first human to read and understand the scrolls? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 15:53:08
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| Markustay, I'm still trying to locata the source where Mystra instructs Allasra to *not* eliminate Szas Tam. Any luck with that? |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 17:36:50
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Brace, re. this: "Once again, my bad. I came to the, obviously erroneous, conclusion that Ed favored Mystra and the Chosen over his other creations due to the fact that they appear more frequetly in his TSR/WoTC/Hasbro fiction than any other deity of character. I don't have a database of his novels/novellas/short stories to perform a word count:MANOVA, but a review of his published works does indicate he *publishes* more on these characters than any others. Publishing concerns may be more at play, perhaps? I shouldn't speculate; but I know that El and the Seven are *my* favorites..."
Oh, dear. This betrays a mistaken view of Ed's publishing power held by all too many gamers. Since he sold the Realms to TSR, Ed has had NO control over what Realms products get published, nor their format and wordcount and contents - - other than by "seeding" ideas to designers in his articles and privately, for free, for them to "run with." He writes what he's asked to write, so no one can derive ANY accurate information about Ed's own preferences or interests from what "he" publishes.
Brace, Ed doesn't control TSR or WotC or Hasbro, and never has done.
He HAS had a great amount of INFLUENCE over the years, yes, but that's largely a result of his introducing concepts, characters, settings, and ideas that staffers fell in love with and wanted to use. And writing stuff (example: Elminster) that sold well, so he was asked to do more (and more, and more!) of it. From what was said publicly by some of the Wizards marketing people at the last GenCon, Ed's current book contract is for Elminster novels, "because that's what we want more of, because that's what the fans want" [= buy].
As for Szass Tam not being destroyed by Alassra or any of the Chosen, you still seem to be missing (or at least, not acknowledging) Mystra's prime goal: that the Art (magic) flourish, and be used more and more widely, and be developed constantly. She tolerates The Simbul's destruction of Red Wizards because they use magic to oppress, and keep magic from others (except those who can pay), with the result that non-Red-Wizards with the ability to work magic can't freely do so if they're within Red Wizard reach. However, within the Red Wizards, Szass Tam's battles to rise to power have had the effect of eliminating some of the most oppressive Zulkirs, allowing other ambitious mages to rise, and in the process magic has become far less tightly controlled.
The Chosen are Mystra's instruments, and although she has had them at work during the times covered by Realms novels and sourcebooks on literally thousands of varied tasks that mortals aren't usually shown the scope or goals of, and that certainly don't all fall into accord with Mystra's prime goal, in general the Chosen ARE all about encouraging the use of Art everywhere, free of authority.
Repeatedly in this thread, several posters have made the simplistic assumption that the Chosen are engaged in a power struggle with the princes of Shade and Szass Tam and others to be "top wizard,' or a ruler of a place or region, or to "beat" these other magical powerhouses.
That's just not true. It's as wrong as deciding that a world war happened just because one ruler wanted to own a particular garden in a distant country, so he tried to seize it (and necessarily invaded country after country just to get to the garden he wanted). In other words, it's seeing events through a very narrow window, and concentrating on only a few things seen through that window, to support a preconception.
To go back to the original question that dennis posed: I think The Simbul COULD defeat the Most High, but it's NOT a sure thing. The Simbul succeeds in part because she's insane - - that is, reckless and utterly unpredictable, often succeeding because opponents have prepared to defend themselves against more logical/likely attacks. She has shown sheer power at times that few mortals can hope to match. However, it's VERY unlikely she would ever "single-handedly" take on the Most High, for the reasons of her role as a Chosen I've given - - and dennis, defeating or even utterly destroying the Most High DOESN'T necessarily mean that Shade will be gotten rid of, as a consequence.
love,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 26 Jun 2010 17:39:23 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 17:48:57
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And another thing. 
Brace, you posted this: "The Simbul's long fought war with Thay reveals her (and her sisters) inability to deal with well organized threats."
Sorry, but you're flat-out wrong here. It reveals nothing at all about the inability of either The Simbul or the rest of the Seven to deal with anything.
The Simbul doesn't want to "rule" at all. The time she spends on Aglarond she wants to spend on her country, nurturing it and its people. NOT fighting endless wars with a neighbour. She's forced to fight those wars, but she's not interested in "conquering" Thay, just in keeping Aglarond in existence against repeated attacks. You see this as inability by your standards, but that's just it: by your standards.
In the Realms, other rulers and mages marvel at her managing to keep Aglarond existing, given the HUGE power imbalance between Aglarond and Thay.
Part of her success has been the fact that, contrary to your assertion, Thay's threats have been very far from "well organized."
If you deem the ability to force thousands of slaves to follow your orders to be well organized, perhaps, but I would grant that definition only if those orders carried out complex, subtle military maneuvers and other activities against Aglarond, and "complex" and "subtle" Thay's actions and tactics AIN'T.
Nor is this my opinion against yours. I've sat down with Ed and really discussed the Thayan situation, and sat in on discussions between him and Gary Gygax over Thay vs. Agalrond, and what the Seven really were and what they were "up to."
If you want to ask Ed directly about this, by all means post questions in his thread. It's too late to pose direct questions to Gary, of course. 
love,
THO |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 18:02:08
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And it continues.
I'm not in the business of jumping on everything you've said here, Brace, just pointing out that you seem to be arguing (strenuously, in some cases) on the basis of less than complete understanding of the Realms.
Markustay posted, in part: "As for the Zhents... they had MANY goals, including some which were merely 'smoke & mirrors' to hide their true goals, many of which they succeeded at attaining."
And you responded, in part: "Could you name a success? I realize they managed to terrorize a number of Moonsea region villages into supplication/corruption, and develop strongholds therein, but to what goal?"
The primary goal of the Zhentarim, after they attained control of Zhentil Keep (which has been covered in lore), was to enrich themselves by establishing and controlling the shortest, and therefore most economical, overland trade route between Zhentil Keep (and the mineral resources of north-of-the-Moonsea) and the Sword Coast. Troy Denning wrote an entire novel (THE PARCHED SEA) centered on that trade route, and Ed and others have written much about its underpinnings (see the Darkhold booklet from the CASTLES boxed set, Ed's novel CROWN OF FIRE, and many other examples) and effects.
The Zhents did VERY well by succeeding at this primary goal for years, though their success led to increasing internal conflict (Manshoon vs. Fzoul) and competition (Thay estalishing its trade conclaves).
To answer the question you posed to Markustay, THAT was, and always has been, "the" goal of the Zhents. As has been made very clear in lots of Realmslore, down the years.
I hope this helps clear some misunderstandings up.
I'm getting very tired of some of the hard language between scribes, in this thread and others.
Learn this, everyone, if you learn nothing else: in life, NO ONE ever "wins" any argument. So trying to is always futile.
Clearing up misunderstandings and increasing everyone's grasp of the way things are can be done and is a laudable goal.
That's why these three posts, Brace. I'm not trying to "get" or embarrass you. I'm trying to thrust a lot of the misinformation and misunderstandings off the table, so scribes can debate some of the real issues that Ed and other designers have established in the published Realms for everyone to explore and argue over.
love,
THO
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 18:24:05
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| well said madam hoody well said |
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sir_lune
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 19:52:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Markustay, I'm still trying to locata the source where Mystra instructs Allasra to *not* eliminate Szas Tam. Any luck with that?
It could be in Elminster daughter novel, in which there is also some interessing data concerning thayan portals and their effects. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 20:52:28
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One must also remember that MYstra is all for keeping tha balance of magic at work... So as long as the Thay have a positive influence on magic in general... it should be alowed. The same thing with Larloch...
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 21:25:19
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I daresay I'm embarrassed to have a Lady come to my rescue, but I appreciate the efforts you have made, Lady Hooded One.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Markustay, I'm still trying to locata the source where Mystra instructs Allasra to *not* eliminate Szas Tam. Any luck with that?
I just spent the last 2 hrs speed-reading through two Elminster novels and did not find the scene wherein Elminster and the Simbul stand before Mystra... haven't finished going through Elminster's Daughter, but I'm fairly certain the scene takes place in that book (going by when I learned of it, and when I read the three novels in question).
I've decided to re-read the novel in the normal fashion, because I have only read it once, and I want to pick through it for lore this time. If I come across the scene I will post the page # here. If some other scribe knows where the exact scene can be located then by all means please enlighten us. 
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 22:47:40
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Wow THO, thanks for the comprehensive response. However, I must take you to task on a few points.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Ed has had NO control over what Realms products get published
Ed has COMPLETE control over what gets published with his name on it. If Hasbro/Wizards said, "Ed, we want you to write one of those fantastic 'Elminster' stories. The fans *really* love them!"
Ed *could* reply, "No thanks, fellas'. I'd like to write something about a new character of mine." He could also reply, "No thanks, fellas'. I shan't write anything at all..."
This is COMPLETE control.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
As for Szass Tam not being destroyed by Alassra or any of the Chosen, you still seem to be missing (or at least, not acknowledging) Mystra's prime goal: that the Art (magic) flourish, and be used more and more widely, and be developed constantly.
Perhaps I was unclear in my posts above. I neither missed, nor failed to acknowledge the point above. In fact, I made the point above in *this thread*. I'll quote myself, from this thread, below.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
...the Goddess has long sought to enhance civilization with magic, (to me, this is her central tenant)
If you believe that my point above is significantly different than yours, then you have missed the point. This is certainly due to an error on my part; I will write more clearly in the future.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
However, within the Red Wizards, Szass Tam's battles to rise to power have had the effect of eliminating some of the most oppressive Zulkirs, allowing other ambitious mages to rise, and in the process magic has become far less tightly controlled.
Szass Tam has worked to consolidate power in Thay. While this may have "eliminated some of the most oppressive Zulkirs", it has lead to the promotion of the *most oppressive* Zulkir. Thay is an imperial power built on slavery, home not to "thousands" of slaves, but *millions* of slaves. Each of these slaves is capable, to some extant or another, to contribute to the Art. Instead, they are dehumanized (by collusion) by Mystra? Sorry, not in my campaign.
How is cultivation of the Art in Thay going, what with it being an undead hell on earth and all?
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Sorry, but you're flat-out wrong here. It reveals nothing at all about the inability of either The Simbul or the rest of the Seven to deal with anything.
The Simbul doesn't want to "rule" at all. The time she spends on Aglarond she wants to spend on her country, nurturing it and its people. NOT fighting endless wars with a neighbour. She's forced to fight those wars, but she's not interested in "conquering" Thay, just in keeping Aglarond in existence against repeated attacks. You see this as inability by your standards, but that's just it: by your standards.
Was Greenwood's "The Seven Sisters" meant as a "disinfomation" source? I've heard that some of his novel were edited poorly. "Spellfire" comes to mind... Was this the case with "The Seven Sisters"? It was edited by one Julia Martin. Once again, from the Seven Sister (Greenwood) pg. 40
"One day, she vows, Thay will be destroyed, and she will call together the witches of Rashemen, the druids of many faiths, and the elves from all over Toril, and work on founding a new forest east of Aglarond, centered on Lake Thaylambar. There elves can settle in a new realm, and Alassra can then forget all the cruelties of Thay and set to work smashing the decadent Old Empires of Unther and Mulhorand, and reforming them into farming realms rather than dust-blown slave empires ruled by the crazed and the cruel. When the human-held surface lands are patchwork places of local powers and small grasp, she can set about encouraging settlements of halflings nearby, and dwarf and gnome settlements below, until those races recover the numbers, pride, and culture they enjoyed before being crushed beneath the ruthless numbers and ambitions of orcs and humans."
Above, Greenwood clearly outlines Alassra's geopolitical perspective. I agree that she may not wish to "rule" this new patchwork of local powers. However, she states (on record at Candlekeep) exactly what she wants, claims she is smarter than everyone else, and will slay and murder to get what she wants. This is equivalent to ruling these nations. (In the real world, we call them "proxy states".) Let's say that one of these patchwork places of local power reach exceeds Alassra's defintion of "limited". Would she intervene again?
Lets review a few "facts":
Alassra has vowed to destroy Thay. (The Seven Sisters, pg. 40, Greenwood)
Alassra has prosecuted an asymmetric war of aggression on Thayvian soil. (Silverfall-Stories of the Seven Sisters, pg.320, Greenwood)
Alassra has stated that her "mastery of magic" gives her the right to "imperial rule". (Silverfall-Stories of the Seven Sisters, pg.275, Greenwood)
Alassra has not destroyed Thay.
Clearly, Alassra has worked towards her vow, but has failed to achieve it. Is she carefully, methodically, playing "The Great Game", slowly twisting Faerunian geopolitics to her *clearly stated* goals? From what I know of the Mad Witch Queen of Aglarond, this seems unlikely. The Alassra I know moves swiftly, leaving an impish smile and smoldering corpses.
But you are of course correct THO. Alassra has clearly stated her goals, worked towards them, and failed to achieve them. By *my standards*, Alassra has shown "inability". But hell, if she keeps pluggin' away, she might get there... Well, her mother took care of Mulhorand and Unther for her... but she might've gotten there, eventually.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
The primary goal of the Zhentarim, after they attained control of Zhentil Keep (which has been covered in lore), was to enrich themselves by establishing and controlling the shortest, and therefore most economical, overland trade route between Zhentil Keep (and the mineral resources of north-of-the-Moonsea) and the Sword Coast.
Sure.
Do the Zhentarim control the shortest trade routes from Zhentil Keep to the Sword Coast?
They do not.
Were the overland routes through the Great Sand Sea the most economical? This is debatable, though I recommend you try and lead a wagon caravan over sand/dunes. In an area far from civilization, in a world full of monsters. Looks good on a DnD poster map, tho...
Let's look for a moment at some of the Black Networks other goals:
Control political seats in Moonsea villages.
Check.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Could you name a success? I realize they managed to terrorize a number of Moonsea region villages into supplication/corruption, and develop strongholds therein, but to what goal?
Control the Church of Bane/Cyric.
Really? The gods of Faerun are real. Manshoon knows this. The only entity "controlling" these religious sects are Bane and Cyric, respectively.
Expand illicit trade to the Sword Coast.
"Ensure the utter destruction of all who stand in the way of these objectives. These enemies include Shadowdale, the Purple Dragons of Cormyr, Mulmaster, Hillsfar, the Harpers, the rulers of Sembia, the Cult of the Dragon, other Moonsea cities, the troublesome Elminster, and countless others." (Ruins of Zhentil Keep, pg. 31-32, Melka and Terra)
The Zhentarim and Zhentilar have not achieved the above stated goal.
Elmister has this to say (emphasis mine: "#147;The Zhentarim goal is to control the trade of all the Dalelands and beyond. To do this, they work in the shadows. It is hard for the Purple Dragons to crush an enemy that does not take the field against them. The Zhentarim corrupt officials, terrorize caravans, and charm merchants into setting prices the Zhentarim like." (Ruins of Zhentil Keep, pg. 5, Melka and Terra)#148;
Economic intrigue and political coercion/subjugation. Great themes for a novel, but for a game whose primary audience is 13 year old boys? I think they want "Black Knights" to slay, and princesses to rescue, not oligarchs to outmaneuver and "comparative advantages in international trade" to assess. Your mileage may vary, but I think that Shade offers more to this audience than does the Zhentil Keep.
Now, back to the quote from the Old Mage above. The part in bold:
Do the Zhentarim control the trade of all the Dales and beyond? Is such a thing possible? Of course not. And, for my money, a villain whose goal is unattainable is comical at best.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I'm not in the business of jumping on everything you've said here, Brace, just pointing out that you seem to be arguing (strenuously, in some cases) on the basis of less than complete understanding of the Realms.
Could the sage with complete understanding of the Realms please raise their quill?
Anyone?
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Learn this, everyone, if you learn nothing else: in life, NO ONE ever "wins" any argument. So trying to is always futile.
Clearing up misunderstandings and increasing everyone's grasp of the way things are can be done and is a laudable goal.
That's why these three posts, Brace. I'm not trying to "get" or embarrass you. I'm trying to thrust a lot of the misinformation and misunderstandings off the table, so scribes can debate some of the real issues that Ed and other designers have established in the published Realms for everyone to explore and argue over.
love,
THO
A laudable goal indeed.
And just so you know, I don't embarrass easy, THO.
And it'll take a lot more than three interwebz posts to "get" me.   |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2010 : 23:48:16
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An asymetrecal war... is difined by using non uniformic combatants and using rogue tactics. IED's and such. In FR she wants to gather and army: Witches and such, and anihilate Thay. It does not look as if this is any way azymetric. Nor Terrorism. And since both countries are soverien, then this is indeed zymetric war!!! You might not agree, but I stand firm in my believe that im correct.
Further more, it does not seem as if you look at the greater picture here. Im thinking aabout the effects it would have on the realms if Thay were destroyed. It is Mystra "job" to ophold a balance, and that means that even Zsazz Tam and Larloch and such have the right to wield magic no matter if they are evil or good.
Remember that Mystra could, if she wanted, destroy Thay with a snap of hr fingers, and so could Bane destroy Waterdeep. And the fact they dont means, that niether shall they chosen!!!
Please dont see this post as an attack on you, but merely a friendly discusion |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2010 : 00:02:21
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Ohh yeah...
There are people in the realms that could effect the world as A-bombs does it in the real world. But I dont se anyone dropping nukes all over the world. We could easyly win the war in afgan by dropping some nukes but we dont. Neither should we just destroy entire realms in FR with the help of the most powerful entities just because we could.
If you consider the fact that Simbul have not yet destroyed Thay as a fail; then consider the war in Afganistan a fail because we dont drop nukes!!!
Simbul, Elminster, Alustriel, Khelben = Nuke
The Srinshee = Hydrogen Bomb
Mystra = A Cataclysmic meteor that ended life as we know it!
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2010 : 00:06:02
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| Thanks Nicolai. The Simbul uses *all* the tactics you describe in Silverfall. Including an IED! (A spell trapped scrying device.) |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2010 : 00:11:30
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| I won't touch Afghanistan on these forums, cool dude, but check out "The Bear Went Over the Mountain". It's an analysis of 'fail'. |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2010 : 00:31:02
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| I didn't know trolls were pro-shade, but never the less , let's stop feeding them in this scroll fellow scribes. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2010 : 00:50:47
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Regrettably, I have to agree.
Brace's twisting of everything I posted is . . . impressive, to say the least.
I will respond to just one point Brace made:
"Ed has COMPLETE control over what gets published with his name on it. If Hasbro/Wizards said, "Ed, we want you to write one of those fantastic 'Elminster' stories. The fans *really* love them!"
Ed *could* reply, "No thanks, fellas'. I'd like to write something about a new character of mine." He could also reply, "No thanks, fellas'. I shan't write anything at all..."
This is COMPLETE control."
That would be complete control, if those conditions existed. Yet they don't, Brace, and never have, since 1986.
On at least three occasions, text substantially written by others has been published with Ed's name on it. On many, many occasions, prose written by him has been published in products with other writers' bylines on it. That's what "work for hire" MEANS, Brace. Here in the real world.
Ed COULD indeed say, "I'd like to write something about a new character of mine." However, he couldn't publish it, anywhere, if that new character is having adventures in the Realms (unless or until control of the Realms returns to him). That's what copyright (something you were anxious to explain all the implications of to Kyrene, in another thread, incorrectly BTW) means.
Yes, Ed could refuse to write anything at all. However, what would then happen is that someone else would write Elminster novels, WITH ED'S NAME ON THEM.
That's "complete control"? Don't make me laugh.
I'll refrain from commenting directly on the rest of your replies to me, because it's very clear that you are applying your own personal gaming preferences to the published Realms as a judgment filter (which is just fine for all gamers to do and is necessary for any DM to do), but are then making the mistake of confusing your personal preferences and standards for objective, universal standards.
You also seem to have this simplistic idea that characters never lie or exaggerate when they speak, are incapable of misleading others deliberately, and NEVER CHANGE THEIR VIEWS, OVER TIME. The lore tells us all, repeatedly, that The Simbul is a lot less than sane, but you seem to think she is very sane. And candid to a fault. And never changes her views at all.
Brace, reality is way over there. Way, way over there...
love, regardless,
THO
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2010 : 00:52:04
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Ofc.. the afgan debate has no place here, I only refered to the war there as counterpart to Thay! It shall stop now!
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3249 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2010 : 01:39:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
How is cultivation of the Art in Thay going, what with it being an undead hell on earth and all?
That happened? Oh... wait... thats 4e... your right... it doesn't have to make sense...
That happened after Mystra died - for someone who professes to love the 4e Realms, you sure forget your eras when it is convenient to do so. 
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Do the Zhentarim control the shortest trade routes from Zhentil Keep to the Sword Coast?
They do not.
They do - you really need to do some reading before you to argue with people who clearly understand the realms FAR better then you.
Which is just about anyone else on this site.
The most direct route to the Swordcoast was through the Stonelands and past Darkhold - a route they controlled, is mentioned in the Stonelands Accessory, and is also mentioned (and shown on the map) in the Zhentil Keep product. What they were trying to do was find an even better route.
It is people like you, who have badly misconceived notions about the Realms, that made WotC change them - please enjoy the mess that was created specifically for you and not for those who thought the Realms perfect to begin with.
If you hated the Realms so much (as you and so many other did), why play in it at all? Clearly you all had problems with it... was it jealousy? That you (and so many others) couldn't enjoy a setting without knowing a little something about it?
I'm not picking a fight - I want an HONEST ANSWER - Why didn't all of you pro-plague people just run Greyhawk, or a hundred other settings that were already specifically designed for people who wanted 'bare bones'?
You are starting to get on my nerves - you are just like the designers - you defend the 'New Realms' by beating-up the old one. Leave the 'Negative Ad Campaigns' to the politicians please - we are fans here, and don't take kindly to folks belittling what has come before.
Fine... you obviously disliked the Realms a great deal - no one is forcing you to use them. Begone {Casts: Banish Troll}
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Could you name a success? I realize they managed to terrorize a number of Moonsea region villages into supplication/corruption, and develop strongholds therein, but to what goal?
I answered this above - I will not do the research and reading for a lazy person - pick up a sourcebook for a change. The few answers I gave above were just the tip of the iceberg - the Ruins of Zhentil keep product goes on for several pages about all the Zhent's enterprises - many of which were HIGHLY profitable.
Why do you continually ignore or disregard every answer you don't happen to agree with? Repeateadly asking a question that has already been explicitly answered (while ignoring the answers) is trolling.
Stop trying to prove the old Realms were utter garbage (that is your opinion, isn't it? because, ya' know, that's exactly what it sounds like)
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Economic intrigue and political coercion/subjugation. Great themes for a novel, but for a game whose primary audience is 13 year old boys? I think they want "Black Knights" to slay, and princesses to rescue, not oligarchs to outmaneuver and "comparative advantages in international trade" to assess. Your mileage may vary, but I think that Shade offers more to this audience than does the Zhentil Keep.
I couldn't agree more; the new realms - and 4e itself - are aimed at 13 yr olds.
Glad we can finally agree on something.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Now, back to the quote from the Old Mage above. The part in bold:
Do the Zhentarim control the trade of all the Dales and beyond? Is such a thing possible? Of course not. And, for my money, a villain whose goal is unattainable is comical at best.
Glad you find guys like Saddam Hussein a joke, or that crackpot in Korea. They are funny so long as they don't have Nukes, eh? I thought we established elsewhere that an Archmage is the equivalent of a modern nuke. Just because a goal is unobtainable, doesn't mean some (powerful) madman isn't going to try for it anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Could the sage with complete understanding of the Realms please raise their quill?
Anyone?
Where the hell is the 'hand raising' smiley? 
But seriously, having 'complete understanding' of the Realms is not the same as 'knowing everything' - I don't think even Ed knows everything about the Realms. I know precisely how most everything in the Realms works, because that is precisely what I look for in my research, be it weather, geology, economics, political maneuvering, etc...
I used to think just like you - that the Realms were terribly out-of-balance... but then I dug deeper. They make perfect sense when you see the 'big picture'.
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
And it'll take a lot more than three interwebz posts to "get" me.
'True Colors' and all that 
Once again, you are showing your true motives here. You don't care to learn one whit about the real realms, you just want to keep these arguments going forever.
If I didn't know better, I would say you were a VERY clever plant by Paizo - all people like you do is continue to drive the wedge into the community and send folks their way. I sincerely hope the '4e crowd' has lots of money to spend, because Wizbro is going to have to charge $100 a book just to keep the franchise lucrative, with its dwindling audience.
On another site I frequent, pro-4e people are working to make the 4e modules 'good', because all of those pro-4e folks agree that the adventures thus-far have been utter crap. That from the people who like the 4e rules and the 4e Realms. What they are shoving out the door over at WotC isn't even pleasing the people who are on their side. You think I only hang out here? Guess again - and on that site we have 3e and 4e people mixed together and nary an argument - everyone there is trying trying to make everyone else's RPG experience a better one.
Isn't that what we are supposed to be doing here? Why keep re-hashing these same old arguments? If we don't like something, stop trying to convince us its good. We can't seem to convince you of the reverse. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jun 2010 01:42:41 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36905 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2010 : 01:50:14
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| Okay, this has gone far enough, I think. Locking this thread, pending further review. I and the other mods will discuss rather or not to reopen this thread. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 27 Jun 2010 01:53:58 |
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Telamont and the Simbul
Topic Locked
