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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 23:45:26
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Suggested a Feat that allows for maximum Hit Points per level. Was wanting an opinion (or if anyone has tried it). Was thinking of allowing it as a stackable feat (so that it must be takne again at 6th level and 12th), simply just allowing it (80 Hit Points rally matter for a wizard when a troll can rip him up in a few rounds?). Or just slapping my player and yelling, "So you rolled another 1 on hit points, a 9th level fighter with 27 hit points is perfectly normal..."
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4704 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2010 : 23:52:06
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Not sure if that feat would be balanced.
The basic rule set was for average hit points and I can not think of any feat that is worth that many hit points.
However if your players are rolling too many ones or twos, it would not effect game balance by allowing then to re-roll ones, perhaps twos depending on class to help get the average up to something near normal. |
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"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
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"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 00:16:57
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| Max HP for a feat is wicked overpowered: Here's the litmus test for a feat- can you imagine a character NOT wanting it? Then it's probably overpowered, especially as it pertains to fighter-types. I cannot recall the source, but there was a list of 'toughness tree feats' that will help PCs with low HP. You start w/ Toughness (+3) then (IIRC on all the names) skin of the boar (+6),skin of the Bear (+12) and skin of the dragon (+24) for a total of +45 HP at a cost of 4 feats, making it impractical for any but a fighter to take all 4. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4495 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 00:25:17
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I do max HP for everything in 3.5, the players and monsters alike. It just makes it easier and more balanced IMO.
But as far as a feat for making max hp, I don't think it's that overpowered espically with the limited feat slots allowed and I think the lower hit die classes would be more tempted than fighter/melee types to take that feat (ie Wizards and Sorcerers). I'd say it wouldn't be that bad but make some prereqs for it like Con 13+ and possibly the Toughness feat? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 00:44:22
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I always give max HP, but I also do a lot of other things with HP to off-set that, like use it for fatigue (running takes from fatigue, so does fighting, spell casting, etc...).
So my players think they got of lot of HP, until they start exerting themselves. You can literally cast spells until you pass-out.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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woodwwad
Learned Scribe
USA
267 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 02:01:21
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| If you are strickly using the 3.5 rule set as is, then yes, max hp is overpowered for one feat but your idea of making it more than 1 feet might fix that. In my game I give all the pcs max hp for the first 6 levels, then it is a straight roll. This makes sure no characters, especially warriors have really low hp. I do understand low hp. I ran Ravenloft for 4 & a half years (2e) in Highschool to college (this was 15 years or so ago) & I had a paladin pc who at 7th level had less than 30 hp & he had a good con score. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 02:40:29
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| Just give them tougher opponents - it all works out. Balance is just a 'numbers game'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 04:55:46
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| How about a feat that basically mimics the hit point bonus from a high Constitution score? |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 13:24:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How about a feat that basically mimics the hit point bonus from a high Constitution score?
There's a regional feat in PGtF (Mind over Body IIRC) that allows a wizard/sorcerer to use his Int/Cha to determine bonus HP, but only at first level (which sucks IMO). I allowed him to benefit from this feat at every level (he was a sun elf wizard with 20 Int). It helped him alot... and then he acquired headbands of intellect and started using fox's cunning. His HP became ridiculusly high. So, I won't do that again.
I can work if you limit his bonus HP to natural int, without counting those from magical/temporary sources (that's what we agreed on when we realised this was overpowered). |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 14:52:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I do max HP for everything in 3.5, the players and monsters alike. It just makes it easier and more balanced IMO.
But as far as a feat for making max hp, I don't think it's that overpowered espically with the limited feat slots allowed and I think the lower hit die classes would be more tempted than fighter/melee types to take that feat (ie Wizards and Sorcerers). I'd say it wouldn't be that bad but make some prereqs for it like Con 13+ and possibly the Toughness feat?
That is completely balanced and neatly sidesteps the problem of someone rolling poorly on HP. Ironically, I do almost the opposite: After 1st-5th level (max HP) PCs get a fixed mumber of HP/levelbased on class- Fighters and Paladins get 3/level, Rangers, clerics and Rogues get 2/level, and Wiz/Scorcs get 1/level plus Con bonuses; Monsters get the same treatment, with max HP for the first 5 HD, plus a fixed mumber of HP for every HD after that, depending on type. Obviously, this makes Con a vital stat, and improved toughness is a popular feat in my game.
Wooly, I like your idea of a feat that mimics high Con for HP puposes: Maybe a stackable feat that gives +1 HP/level for each time you take it? It would be like a stackable improved toughness. How do you see such a feat working? |
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Artemel
Learned Scribe
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 15:50:50
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| There is a feat that mimics high Constitution for hit points, sort of. It's called Improved Toughness and requires +2 base fortitude. It adds 1 hit point per level. Essentially, you could treat your Con score as 2 higher for purposes of hit points only. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 15:59:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Wooly, I like your idea of a feat that mimics high Con for HP puposes: Maybe a stackable feat that gives +1 HP/level for each time you take it? It would be like a stackable improved toughness. How do you see such a feat working?
Well, I've not played 3E, so I don't know if they copied that from 2E or not... But in 2E, there were bonus hit points from high Con scores. I was thinking that a feat that did exactly the same thing (though maybe losing the split for warriors) could work.
If you're not familiar with it, in 2E everyone got a HP bonus based on high Constitution. For non-warriors, it topped out at +2 HP per die. For warriors, it went to +5 for a 19 Constitution. Warriors and priests got the bonus thru level 9, others got it thru level 10. And for multiclass types, you got part of the bonus with one level, part of it with the other.
So with something like that, you could have someone get anywhere from 20 to 45 extra hit points, by the time they hit level 10. And that would be it. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4495 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 17:17:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I do max HP for everything in 3.5, the players and monsters alike. It just makes it easier and more balanced IMO.
But as far as a feat for making max hp, I don't think it's that overpowered espically with the limited feat slots allowed and I think the lower hit die classes would be more tempted than fighter/melee types to take that feat (ie Wizards and Sorcerers). I'd say it wouldn't be that bad but make some prereqs for it like Con 13+ and possibly the Toughness feat?
That is completely balanced and neatly sidesteps the problem of someone rolling poorly on HP. Ironically, I do almost the opposite: After 1st-5th level (max HP) PCs get a fixed mumber of HP/levelbased on class- Fighters and Paladins get 3/level, Rangers, clerics and Rogues get 2/level, and Wiz/Scorcs get 1/level plus Con bonuses; Monsters get the same treatment, with max HP for the first 5 HD, plus a fixed mumber of HP for every HD after that, depending on type. Obviously, this makes Con a vital stat, and improved toughness is a popular feat in my game.
I like the idea of static hit points at each level as well. Maybe I'll try that in the next game I DM using 3.5. Good looks. |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 17:45:58
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I actually misstated my house rule above: I do max HP for levels 1-3, not 1-5.
I went with it because 1) it shortens combat considerably, especially at higher levels 2) it prevents the 'he shrugs off damage like an old overcoat' issue with high level warrior-types. I'm currently running a long-standing high-level game and I'll use the party's Paladin as an example: She is a Pal9/ Pious Templar9 with a 14 Con and bracers of health +2. Under my ruleset, she has (30 from levels 1-3+ 45 from levels 6-18+ 39 from her Con score) 114 HP. Were she to have rolled at every level average HP would be ~152, almost 40% more. Since I apply the same rule to 'monsters', it means that combats are much shorter and don't drag into 'I'm going to cause enough damage to eviscerate a rhino... for the 11th consecutive round and maybe the thing will die' sort of unbelievability that super high HP leads to. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 17:58:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Ironically, I do almost the opposite: After 1st-5th level (max HP) PCs get a fixed mumber of HP/levelbased on class- Fighters and Paladins get 3/level, Rangers, clerics and Rogues get 2/level, and Wiz/Scorcs get 1/level plus Con bonuses;
So after fifth level, Barbarians only get a 1/4 of their possible HP? Ouch. (Assuming you put them with fighters/paladins. Still though. Wizards must die alot in your game with only a hp a level. Also: Is that Cell for your avatar?
My own HP story:
It was my first different type of character. It was like, my third offical game of me as a player. I wanted to make a dragon hunter mercenary named Kraven. He would wield a glaive. He would be a silent type mercenary that did his job, but specialized in dragon slaying. (Rumor had it there would be a few dragons in game). As the DM had a strange style of ability scores, I had stranges ones, but Had a decent con, I belive 15. So level 1 Fighter, had a 12 HP. Not bad.
At level 2, I rolled a 1. At level 3, the same. 4 the same. The DM loved that, and seeing as he had the mindset of DM vs Players, I was never allowed to reroll. Thankfully he was still tactically an idiot who's own houserules screwed himself over most of the time. (One of his worst house rules that anyone that chaotic align was never allowed to hit the same creature twice in a roll, even multiple attacks you MUST target someone else, and all lawful must attack one target until they are dead, even if it means being hit by a fireball or the castle is about to blow up. Needless to say we all played neutral. In anycase, I surivived until level 10, and had a grand total of 50 hp.
A level 10 fighter with 50 hps. Yay.
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 18:32:01
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Personally, I let my players roll their hit points, and then take average hit points if their hit points are below this. This puts them on even footing with monsters, who when used strait out of book usually have average hit points. But, here is a trio of feats I came up with along the lines of what people were talking about above:
Hardiness [General]
Prerequisites: Con 13+, Toughness
You reroll all 1s and 2s when rolling hit dice. You may not do this retroactively.
Improved Hardiness [General]
Prerequisites: Con 15+, Hardiness, Toughness
You may take average hit points instead of rolling hit points each level. If your current hit points are below average, you may bump them up to average.
Superior Hardiness [General]
Prerequisites: Con 17+, Hardiness, Improved Hardiness, Toughness
You may take maximum hit points instead of rolling hit points each level. If your current hit points are below maximum, you may bump them up to maximum.
Personally, I would omit the first feat (and it as a prerequisite for the second and third feats), and drop the Con prerequisites on Improved Hardiness and Superior Hardiness to 13+ and 15+, respectively.
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Edited by - Hawkins on 20 Jun 2010 18:33:22 |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 19:36:37
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Thankfully he was still tactically an idiot who's own houserules screwed himself over most of the time. (One of his worst house rules that anyone that chaotic align was never allowed to hit the same creature twice in a roll, even multiple attacks you MUST target someone else, and all lawful must attack one target until they are dead, even if it means being hit by a fireball or the castle is about to blow up. Needless to say we all played neutral.
I'm sorry, but those are probably the worst house rules I've ever seen. |
Edited by - Kilvan on 20 Jun 2010 19:37:13 |
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Knight of the Gate
Senior Scribe
USA
624 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 20:25:40
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
quote:
Originally posted by Knight of the Gate
Ironically, I do almost the opposite: After 1st-5th level (max HP) PCs get a fixed mumber of HP/levelbased on class- Fighters and Paladins get 3/level, Rangers, clerics and Rogues get 2/level, and Wiz/Scorcs get 1/level plus Con bonuses;
So after fifth level, Barbarians only get a 1/4 of their possible HP? Ouch. (Assuming you put them with fighters/paladins. Still though. Wizards must die alot in your game with only a hp a level. Also: Is that Cell for your avatar?
First, I have no idea who my avatar pic is: It's one of the stock CK avatars.
As for Bbns, I don't use them: They make sense only for one type of 'savage' culture and don't (IMO) do that very well either. Not to mention the fact that a class is supposed to represent a profession, not a culture. Instead I've ported in the Raider class from A Game of Thrones d20 RPG. It allows you to do mountain/tundra/forest 'barbarians' as well as pirates (!) and horse nomads.
Wizards are affected least by my changes. Witness: the wizard in my high level game is a wiz6/loremaster10/Archmage2 he has (12 from levels 1-3 and 15 from levels 4-18) 27 hp out of a maximum of 64... a little less than average. However, knowing this, he put a good score (14) into CON, took the improved toughness feat, and has made bracers of health of the highest possible value at every stage of his development (he made +2 @ 6th level, +4 around 12th and recently made them +6) which adds 90 hp to the total . So in total, he has 135 hp, making him tougher than the party's main combatant! Even w/o the bracers he'd have +54 hp from his base CON and his IT feat for a total of 81, which is very respectable for a wizard. |
How can life be so bountiful, providing such sublime rewards for mediocrity? -Umberto Ecco |
Edited by - Knight of the Gate on 20 Jun 2010 20:38:16 |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 23:46:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Kilvan
I'm sorry, but those are probably the worst house rules I've ever seen.
Trust me. They're not. If you want to know his other ones, tell me and I'll send a PM.
You'll cry. I promise you, you will cry. It's why we no longer let him DM.
EVER.
KNIGHT OF THE GATE:
Ah, ok. I can see why that's be ok. The first five levels can really do more boosting the I originally thought. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2010 : 23:58:49
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quote:
Personally, I let my players roll their hit points, and then take average hit points if their hit points are below this. This puts them on even footing with monsters, who when used strait out of book usually have average hit points
Yeah, when I'm not doing max HP, I do this. I think it adds a safety net with HP, so you don't get a character falling too far behind, but lets players with good rolls feel happy. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 03:26:28
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quote:
Originally posted by dracons
Trust me. They're not. If you want to know his other ones, tell me and I'll send a PM.
You'll cry. I promise you, you will cry. It's why we no longer let him DM.
EVER.
KNIGHT OF THE GATE:
Ah, ok. I can see why that's be ok. The first five levels can really do more boosting the I originally thought.
You mean there's more?? Oh yeah, I'd love to hear about them. I love those kind of gaming stories, kinda like bed-time stories I tell my players to make them appreciate the way I DM (now, if you're not happy.. I could make you roll all your saving throws twice, and use the worst result. Why? Because I can!! Mwahahahaha). |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2010 : 15:53:59
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| Probalby something that instead of re-rolling 1s, then it treats 1s as 2s so its not overpowered. Then a feat following that which treats 1s and 2s as 3s (with a CON of 13+ required for the first one and maybe 14 or 15 for the second one, along with the first one of course). |
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BlackDragonKarameikos
Learned Scribe
USA
106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 02:59:03
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I actually do something similar.
FOr the first 2 levels I give full HP to all classes, then I go full HP at even levels and half at odd, it makes it easier than having to roll, and the characters all have decent HP, even at low levels. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2010 : 07:27:51
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Personally, I let my players roll their hit points, and then take average hit points if their hit points are below this. This puts them on even footing with monsters, who when used strait out of book usually have average hit points. But, here is a trio of feats I came up with along the lines of what people were talking about above:
Hardiness [General]
Prerequisites: Con 13+, Toughness
You reroll all 1s and 2s when rolling hit dice. You may not do this retroactively.
Improved Hardiness [General]
Prerequisites: Con 15+, Hardiness, Toughness
You may take average hit points instead of rolling hit points each level. If your current hit points are below average, you may bump them up to average.
Superior Hardiness [General]
Prerequisites: Con 17+, Hardiness, Improved Hardiness, Toughness
You may take maximum hit points instead of rolling hit points each level. If your current hit points are below maximum, you may bump them up to maximum.
Personally, I would omit the first feat (and it as a prerequisite for the second and third feats), and drop the Con prerequisites on Improved Hardiness and Superior Hardiness to 13+ and 15+, respectively.
While I don't particularly like the idea of just "handing out" max hit points, if a player wants to divest 3 feats (and a boatload of CON) into these three feats, I'm more than happy to let 'em!
Nicely done!
As for my current games, since I've been in some Pathfinder games, I like what they do. You do the numerical half of the die you use +1, so a wizard in pathfinder gets 4 hp PLUS CON every level. (a 3.5 wizard would get 3 hp plus con) every level. You, of course, gain max hit points at every level. With the feats you put up I'd put one feat out there, with a level prerequisite of 9 and CON 15 requirement for the full hp/level. Hmm... thinking about this one. Thanks
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Max Hit Points Feat
