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Jelennet
Learned Scribe
Russia
131 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 16:42:53
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I haven't read many books about Forgotten Realms and I wonder: are there any persons that you can consider a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu? And why?
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Edited by - Jelennet on 20 May 2010 17:11:16
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31796 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 17:03:43
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Okay, before they start, I'm going to clear up any mistaken impressions some scribes might have about Elminster supposedly being Ed's *pet* character in the Realms. He is not. Both Ed and the Lady Hooded One have, repeatedly, made this quite clear.
Consider this, directly from Ed:-
quote: No, of course not. WotC authors are often asked to provide “sell copy” for book jackets, though it NEVER reaches print un-tinkered-with, but in the old TSR days, writers were rarely invited to do so. I had never seen that blurb until a copy of the book was brought to me for signing at a convention, and I certainly never wrote a word of it. No, I have never said Elminster is my “alter ego.” TSR has, many times; a practice that began in GenCon pre-registration blurb booklets, describing the seminars I did in costume, acting the part of Elminster - - ALSO a practice TSR asked me to begin and carry on. When they, many years later, asked me to leave the costume at home, I happily did so. Those robes are hot. :} To reiterate: I have never, ever said that Elminster is my alter ego or wish fulfillment character, or thought that way for one minute. I will never use any Realms characters in that manner, because doing so would ruin the whole fun of creating the world and its characters, and watching what happens and how they evolve. Just as all of the gamers who have played various PC adventurers in my Realms sessions over the years are playing roles, not themselves.
So saith Ed. Who will return with regular Realmslore about ten hours from now, if he stays on schedule. love, THO
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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DrunkenHadozee
Acolyte
8 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 17:17:20
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Also from Ed:
quote: [...]And I've said before (as have Mark Twain, Diogenes, and scores of others down the ages): it's the mark of an idiot, or someone being deliberately intellectually dishonest (knowingly twisting the truth) to equate what a CHARACTER says or does with what the CREATOR of that character believes or does. (College professors please take note. :}) Legions of folks regularly try to skewer me for being perverted, sexist, a bed-wetter, or whatever for writing some of the Seven Sisters and Elminster as rather lusty. In doing so they have to conveniently ignore all of the decidely straight-laced characters (Piergeiron, et al) I also put into the Realms. I created the "cast of thousands," people, and I know in our real world how angry people can get when someone publicly judges a race or country by looking at one individual ("See? And all Americans are like that!" or glance at Hitler and then judge all . . . get the idea?). So why is it valid to be so weak-minded or dishonest as to think anyone who writes about slavery must secretly BE a slaver? Geez, I guess all of these American historical writers must get up from the keyboard to go down to the cellar and get to whupping their slaves every night, right? And so on.
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Edited by - DrunkenHadozee on 20 May 2010 17:19:15 |
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 17:41:19
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I do consider Shandril a borderline-Sue, but that gets far outstripped by the cracking good yarn that is Shandril's Saga. Often a Mary or Gary is required if used in good measure.
Conversely, I have read only one other Realms novel with a character that is a Gary Stu, but there also the rest of the mediocre tale outstripped the mere [badness of the] protagonist. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2010 : 18:46:47
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Phyrea from the Watcourse Trilogy........just typing that made me almost ill |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2010 : 00:58:20
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Tavis Burdun the Firbolg in the Twilight Giants series.
I can't honestly say the worst Realms series around, but at its best it seems like very little was done to make it seem like it was set in the Forgotten Realms.
You can take the whole trilogy and dump it anywhere, from Narnia to MiddlEarth to some other planet in outer space and you would have to slightly change maybe 5 sentences across the entire series.
That being said, the protagonist was so perfect and 'Uber' that if he had ducked into a phonebooth and pulled open his leather jerkin exposing a big, red 'S', I wouldn't have batted an eye. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 May 2010 01:00:28 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2010 : 01:07:13
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The closest thing to such a character in the published Realms that I can think of is Cyric, and I only believe that because I think Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were far superior, both individually and as an interesting triumvirate of evil deities, to anything Cyric had to offer the Realms. Of course, because Richard Awlinson was a pen name for two different authors, Cyric falls short of the strict definition of a "Gary Stu"... although I will confess to not being a fan of either author's Realms work. If you don't know who they are, Google the pseudonym; I see no need to publicly identify them here, and this is my opinion. I'm debating rewinding the history of my Realms to either change or erase entirely the Avatar Crisis... the problem with the latter option being how heavily entwined Cyric is in the big events that follow over the next twenty years.
Anyway, I'm digressing from the topic, so I'll shut up now. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 21 May 2010 01:08:57 |
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Hrandar Bearmaul
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2010 : 01:33:24
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I'm surprised more people didn't vote Drizzt as a Gary, not because I personally think so, but because I've noticed often that other realms fans find him to be quite overrated and whatnot. Though his emo-ness might be enough to make him not perfect and thus not a Gary |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2010 : 01:46:32
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To be honest, I completely forgot about Drizzt. He's become more or less a non-entity in my Realms, apart from the fact that he trained the son of one of the characters in the last 2E Realms campaign I DMed. The player of that character (a paladin of Tyr) is now my DM in the same historical continuity, a generation later (circa 1400 DR). It's been interesting; we're into the fifteenth century DR, and no Spellplague in sight. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36823 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2010 : 02:38:45
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quote: Originally posted by Markustay
Tavis Burdun the Firbolg in the Twilight Giants series.
I can't honestly say the worst Realms series around, but at its best it seems like very little was done to make it seem like it was set in the Forgotten Realms.
You can take the whole trilogy and dump it anywhere, from Narnia to MiddlEarth to some other planet in outer space and you would have to slightly change maybe 5 sentences across the entire series.
That being said, the protagonist was so perfect and 'Uber' that if he had ducked into a phonebooth and pulled open his leather jerkin exposing a big, red 'S', I wouldn't have batted an eye.
I didn't see the character as a Mary Sue, but I otherwise agree with you on the protagonist. It's part of the reason I never bothered with the second and third books of the trilogy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2010 : 14:46:37
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quote: Originally posted by Jakk
The closest thing to such a character in the published Realms that I can think of is Cyric, and I only believe that because I think Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were far superior, both individually and as an interesting triumvirate of evil deities, to anything Cyric had to offer the Realms. Of course, because Richard Awlinson was a pen name for two different authors, Cyric falls short of the strict definition of a "Gary Stu"... although I will confess to not being a fan of either author's Realms work. If you don't know who they are, Google the pseudonym; I see no need to publicly identify them here, and this is my opinion. I'm debating rewinding the history of my Realms to either change or erase entirely the Avatar Crisis... the problem with the latter option being how heavily entwined Cyric is in the big events that follow over the next twenty years.
Anyway, I'm digressing from the topic, so I'll shut up now.
I am thinking of having Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul kill Mystra in my Realms. Aided by Velsharoon. Maybe they could become the 'New Magic Mini-Pantheon' of the Realms.
Cyric will be a demigod, maybe I will have him kill Xvim... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding." Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2010 : 13:28:53
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quote: Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote: Originally posted by Markustay
Tavis Burdun the Firbolg in the Twilight Giants series.
I can't honestly say the worst Realms series around, but at its best it seems like very little was done to make it seem like it was set in the Forgotten Realms.
You can take the whole trilogy and dump it anywhere, from Narnia to MiddlEarth to some other planet in outer space and you would have to slightly change maybe 5 sentences across the entire series.
That being said, the protagonist was so perfect and 'Uber' that if he had ducked into a phonebooth and pulled open his leather jerkin exposing a big, red 'S', I wouldn't have batted an eye.
I didn't see the character as a Mary Sue, but I otherwise agree with you on the protagonist. It's part of the reason I never bothered with the second and third books of the trilogy.
If you didn't like the first one there is little reason to read the others, as that is the best one in my opinion.
As for the whole Mary Sue or a Gary Stu thing. As with "Purple Prose" its a term used so subjectivity and loosely that its impossible for me to answer. |
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