As far as "Wonders of the Ancient World" what about that ancient dwarven place that Salvatore's characters all go on about, Gauntlygrim or whatever it's called? Or Isn't Menzobarenzan supposed to be pretty grand, in it's own way. With that big glowing stalagmite and whatnot.
Excuse my spelling of both Gauntrlgrim and Menzobaraenzan.
For ancient wonders the site must be something magnificent and unique, it appears there is a dozen of such ruined fortresses like Gauntlyrim, and half the cities in the Underdark would qualify, actually I was considering the Underspires, but Ched Nasad won cause of its webbed caves.
Some cities as a whole are a wonder cause of the architecture or unique magic that encompasses them, Waterdeep is just a city with great sites here and there (Fields of Triumph, The Walking Statues, Castle Waterdeep, Agharion's and Khelben's towers, Blue Alley, the Plinth ...), I picked Sune's temple as it is the most beautiful in the Realms.
Alright, I'm including the Third Necropolis. Probably there are thousands of other mausoleums, but this has a great traditional value.
What's your opinion on these sites?
The Standing Stone Thaymount (the size?) Shangalar's pyramid The Citadel of the Raven Darkhold The Ironfang Keep Castle Perilous
The Citadel of the Raven and Ironfang Keep definitely belong, simply because (a) the original builders of the Citadel of the Raven are still a mystery, and (b) Ironfang Keep is a relic of the giant kingdoms of Ostoria and a stop along the Dark Three's path to divinity. I'm not sure about Darkhold; does anybody have any lore on how old the actual structure itself is, or was it constructed by the Zhentarim originally?
Castle Perilous could probably qualify as well; it was the Barad-dur of the Forgotten Realms, and should be recognized as such.
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
I'm not sure about Darkhold; does anybody have any lore on how old the actual structure itself is, or was it constructed by the Zhentarim originally?
Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast tell us that:- "Once a castle of the Giant-Emperors, Darkhold was built for folk of giant stature." [And possibly around the time of ancient Netheril]
That alone should qualify it as a wonder of the Realms, I think.
Eh, I'd focus more on the fact that the place was built by giants, and is thus pretty rare and nifty, than how Darkhold is depicted in any particular artists impression. That's certainly not what it looks like in MY head, at least.
As for more comtemporary wonders of the realms, what about Iriaebor (big city of sky-high mage-crafted towers)? Also, Elturel has a second sun burning high above it's roof-tops 24/7 now; it's visible from many miles around and the light has some magical properties, I seem to recall.
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
That image doesn't really match most of the descriptions I've read about Darkhold -- most notably, in Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast.
I'd base Darkhold's possible qualification as a wonder of the Realms on the descriptions of the place, rather than any actual images published in the past.
That version of Darkhold is from Castles boxed set, the textual description from all other sources indeed makes it a wonder. The second sun will be worthy addition, how did I miss it . What about the Karanok sphere??
quote:Originally posted by Cleric Generic
Eh, I'd focus more on the fact that the place was built by giants, and is thus pretty rare and nifty, than how Darkhold is depicted in any particular artists impression. That's certainly not what it looks like in MY head, at least.
As for more comtemporary wonders of the realms, what about Iriaebor (big city of sky-high mage-crafted towers)? Also, Elturel has a second sun burning high above it's roof-tops 24/7 now; it's visible from many miles around and the light has some magical properties, I seem to recall.
Hmmm, it's hard to say. A giant sphere of annihilation is indeed impressive. But, ultimately, the Karanok’s worship of the sphere as Entropy has never truly been a divine and/or wondrous thing. Their fanaticism based on myths and legends ultimately lined up with Tiamat’s goals and she started granting spells in Entropy’s name early in the 1370's. That's pretty much it.
I suppose the "ancient" origins of the sphere itself should warrant further consideration, though. And given what it actually is, rather than what the Karanoks believe it to be, is an important detail as well.
I think of the mighty road that leads to Volothamp in Calmshan. The one with giant statues at both sides
The House of the Loregiver with the Great Mosque and the minor mosques in Huzuz, capital of Zakhara. Perhaps the most beautiful city on Toril :)
The statues are too small, 30 ft. Already posted the Master's Library of Deneir which is bigger than Candlekeep. Huzuz is wonderful, any more ideas from Zakhara or Kara-Tur?
quote:Originally posted by The Sage
quote:Originally posted by Kno
What about the Karanok sphere??
Hmmm, it's hard to say. A giant sphere of annihilation is indeed impressive. But, ultimately, the Karanok’s worship of the sphere as Entropy has never truly been a divine and/or wondrous thing. Their fanaticism based on myths and legends ultimately lined up with Tiamat’s goals and she started granting spells in Entropy’s name early in the 1370's. That's pretty much it.
I suppose the "ancient" origins of the sphere itself should warrant further consideration, though. And given what it actually is, rather than what the Karanoks believe it to be, is an important detail as well.
It only has an exceptional size then. I decided to include the Drakelight from that area.
Do you think the Great Rift is a natural wonder, similar to the Grand Canyon?
The Great Rift would be a good contender, perhaps also Mt. Hotenow (f&*%ing stupid name) with it's elemental hot springs and such making Neverwinter possible?
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
Sentinelspire fits well. Another one from that area that is interesting is Panjuis, the pixie fortress, tough recently wrecked. Another one that got recently destroyed by tentacles is Pasha's Palace, a 1000 ft. big ship. Also the Trade Way in the Calim Desert is somewhat remarkable cause of its maintenance system.
For the magical part the Bloodforges of the Utter East would be a good candidate, also the udoxias of Jhaamdath for the ancient wonders.
The Spirit Soaring was on the list from the start. I don't know about the others, the pixie fortress isn't ''monumental'', the bloodforges I know nothing about, why are they wondrous?
... the bloodforges I know nothing about, why are they wondrous?
The Bloodforges were "ancient war machines capable of manufacturing whole armies of enchanted golems."
They were referenced in the "Darkly, Through a Glass of Ale" story in Realms of Mystery and they were actually noted in the Faces of Deception novel as well. Bloodforges were also featured in the old Blood & Magic PC game for DOS:- http://www.mobygames.com/game/blood-magic
... the bloodforges I know nothing about, why are they wondrous?
The Bloodforges were "ancient war machines capable of manufacturing whole armies of enchanted golems."
They were referenced in the "Darkly, Through a Glass of Ale" story in Realms of Mystery and they were actually noted in the Faces of Deception novel as well. Bloodforges were also featured in the old Blood & Magic PC game for DOS:- http://www.mobygames.com/game/blood-magic
Warforged anyone?
The Realms had them what a good 5 years before Eberron did?
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding." Alaundo of Candlekeep
The Bloodforges qualify more as artifacts, rather then 'wonders'.
There was a huge temple in Maztica, but that was destroyed in the novels. There is another ANCIENT temple in K-T - near the hordelands in the Yehimals that is over 8000 yrs old. How about the Calimenon Crystal? Isn't there a flying fortress built around that?
For natural wonders perhaps the Yellow Thunder Falls? Did you include the Grandfather Tree for another?
You guys already got those cliff-faces in Halruaa, right?
Technically Shade would qualify for a man-made wonder, but considering it isn't really unique (or wasn't, at one point), maybe not. There was also the Imaskari purple palace (I think it was recently destroyed as well).
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
The Shade is unique today, during the Netheril era Ioulaum and Karsus were exceptional. Already included the Purple Palace, it survived even the 4th edition. Yes, the faces in Halruaa are on the list, so is the Grandfather Tree and the Spinning Keep that holds the Calimemnon crystal.
Was the Maztican temple you mentioned more impressive than the pyramid in Tehwahca (400 - 500 ft. big I think)?
What's the Yellow Thunder Falls, source? The ancient temple in Kara-Tur it need to be more than just old, what civilization was that?
Big magical artifacts like the Moonbridge or Nexus are wonders so why not the bloodforge.
quote:Originally posted by The Sage
quote:Originally posted by Kno
... the bloodforges I know nothing about, why are they wondrous?
The Bloodforges were "ancient war machines capable of manufacturing whole armies of enchanted golems."
They were referenced in the "Darkly, Through a Glass of Ale" story in Realms of Mystery and they were actually noted in the Faces of Deception novel as well. Bloodforges were also featured in the old Blood & Magic PC game for DOS:- http://www.mobygames.com/game/blood-magic
I don't have the game, but everywhere else I can't find the physical description of the bloodforge.
The Shade is unique today, during the Netheril era Ioulaum and Karsus were exceptional. Already included the Purple Palace, it survived even the 4th edition. Yes, the faces in Halruaa are on the list, so is the Grandfather Tree and the Spinning Keep that holds the Calimemnon crystal.
Was the Maztican temple you mentioned more impressive than the pyramid in Tehwahca (400 - 500 ft. big I think)?
Is that in Maztica? It may be the same thing - the temple I'm thinking of was a pyramid.
What's the Yellow Thunder Falls, source?
They appear on The Hordelands map, and are described in that product. Their location is on the back cover of The Forgotten Realms Atlas, yet I don't see them marked there - the Yellow Serpent Cliffs from whence the Falls fall is clearly marked, however.
The ancient temple in Kara-Tur it need to be more than just old, what civilization was that?
No-one knows who created it, but the pictures carved into the stonework depict strange beastmen. It is described in the K-T boxed set, right near the beginning, and is called the Temple of Saigai. Also listed on that page (4) are the Cliffs of Tenghai, the Fortress of Kuai, and the Impossible palace of the silver Domes.
Big magical artifacts like the Moonbridge or Nexus are wonders so why not the bloodforge.
Because they are portable and therefore not nearly as monumentous. I had theorized in the Utter east thread that there were two types - the original ancient (god-created?) artifacts which were fixed in place, and a lesser, Imaskari-made version which could be carried around on the back of a war-wagon. However, that was speculation, and it is possible (another of my theories about them) that there was a separate part of them (a ring, a gem, or perhaps a crown) that worked as a controller, alleviating the need to haul the whole forge around onto the battlefield. Regardless, they certainly weren't 'wonder worthy', unless you want to include every artifact and relic in the forgotten Realms. Shear power doesn't make a wonder, impressiveness does (and SIZE matters!) If power were the only factor, then Elminster should be a wonder - he sure as hell is old enough.
quote:Originally posted by Kno
... the bloodforges I know nothing about, why are they wondrous?
<snip>
I don't have the game, but everywhere else I can't find the physical description of the bloodforge.
There is none, but the game and some little bit of history indicates they were moved about, precluding any assumption that they were momentous in size. There is also quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that they had a dark side - they either stole or corrupted (or both) life-force from people near them (which is why I feel the original ones could not be moved - why the hell keep one under a capital city if this were the case?)
One day, hopefully in some future CKC, I will be able to put together a working history of the forges and the Utter east.
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
The Shade is unique today, during the Netheril era Ioulaum and Karsus were exceptional. Already included the Purple Palace, it survived even the 4th edition. Yes, the faces in Halruaa are on the list, so is the Grandfather Tree and the Spinning Keep that holds the Calimemnon crystal.
Was the Maztican temple you mentioned more impressive than the pyramid in Tehwahca (400 - 500 ft. big I think)?
Is that in Maztica? It may be the same thing - the temple I'm thinking of was a pyramid.
I looked into the sources, that's the pyramid of Zaltec in Nexal, once the highest in the True World, been surpassed since by the Pyramid of Gods in Tehwahca. Small comparing to the Gilgeam's ziggurat tough.
What's the Yellow Thunder Falls, source?
They appear on The Hordelands map, and are described in that product. Their location is on the back cover of The Forgotten Realms Atlas, yet I don't see them marked there - the Yellow Serpent Cliffs from whence the Falls fall is clearly marked, however.
It's a big waterfall, smaller than the one in Venezuela, decided not to include it, how about the Unicorn Run?
The ancient temple in Kara-Tur it need to be more than just old, what civilization was that?
No-one knows who created it, but the pictures carved into the stonework depict strange beastmen. It is described in the K-T boxed set, right near the beginning, and is called the Temple of Saigai. Also listed on that page (4) are the Cliffs of Tenghai, the Fortress of Kuai, and the Impossible palace of the silver Domes.
Decided for the Cliffs as it is the most holy place. The beastmen are the most intriguing, who do you think they are?
Big magical artifacts like the Moonbridge or Nexus are wonders so why not the bloodforge.
Because they are portable and therefore not nearly as monumentous. I had theorized in the Utter east thread that there were two types - the original ancient (god-created?) artifacts which were fixed in place, and a lesser, Imaskari-made version which could be carried around on the back of a war-wagon. However, that was speculation, and it is possible (another of my theories about them) that there was a separate part of them (a ring, a gem, or perhaps a crown) that worked as a controller, alleviating the need to haul the whole forge around onto the battlefield. Regardless, they certainly weren't 'wonder worthy', unless you want to include every artifact and relic in the forgotten Realms. Shear power doesn't make a wonder, impressiveness does (and SIZE matters!) If power were the only factor, then Elminster should be a wonder - he sure as hell is old enough.
quote:Originally posted by Kno
... the bloodforges I know nothing about, why are they wondrous?
<snip>
I don't have the game, but everywhere else I can't find the physical description of the bloodforge.
There is none, but the game and some little bit of history indicates they were moved about, precluding any assumption that they were momentous in size. There is also quite a bit of circumstantial evidence that they had a dark side - they either stole or corrupted (or both) life-force from people near them (which is why I feel the original ones could not be moved - why the hell keep one under a capital city if this were the case?)
One day, hopefully in some future CKC, I will be able to put together a working history of the forges and the Utter east.
Thank you for the information, from your description that would be the most awesome article.
Wonders of the Realms
Posted - 17 May 2010 : 22:30:33
. What about the Karanok sphere??
