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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
 Posted - 11 May 2010 : 11:29:14
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Is Drow Society ever detailed further than Drow of the Underdark, MenzoBerranzan Box set...
Males are physically weaker, but weapons masters are always male it seems? (Although the exceptionally large ones seem to also always be male Uthgental, etc.) Do male weapons master rule over female soldiers? It sounds like they must. Like Andzrel Baenre seemed to be in charge of an army...that must have included female soldiers. But Ryld Argith says even though he's a Master of Melee-Magthere he'd never be able to tell ANY female what to do?
What does being a higher ranked house accomplish if one is already on the ruling council? Does House Baenre have power by being first over other houses aside from the power they can take? What about lower houses...what does it matter if you're house 52 or 32?
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2010 : 12:40:19
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1. There was a good article on Wizards' main site, would have to check if it's still on (most aren't). Drow of the Underdark 3.5 e, Underdark 3.0 e. Off the top of my head.
2. Weapon masters are always male, with a very few noticeable exceptions. They don't usually rule over female soldiers. I suppose the females have their own female commanders and so on. Just like there was Zaltherra at Andzrel's side.
3. Being a higher ranked house gives you more power and prestige. More contacts, more trade etc... more high priestesses... being able to enroll your kids into Academy...
Being first means you rule the entire city, but you have to be really cunning and powerful to enforce your rule.
As for the lower ones - that's mostly a matter of boasting, I'd suppose. Although there might be a significant difference between house no. 60 and house no. 20. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 10:22:40
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How does simply being ranked higher give you those things?
Once you are first does that mean you rule, if say House Ranked #1
once had an iron grip on a city...but many of their members were
killed for some reason and they didn't actually have the capacity
to lord over the whole city...but no one attacked them, would they
still not be ranked first? Although they do not actually rule
the city?
I never got the impression drow society would have more male soldiers,
why are male weapon masters so important if they don't actually
run the military of noble houses themselves? It always sounded like
male weapon masters were the ones planning and executing military action.
In Siege of Darkness Uthgental seems to cammand a priestess when he
enters Blingdenstone? Are they just special males, like Gromph? Who
then are able to have power over females? |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2010 : 10:29:42
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| I guess that they are more like elite troop that is not so hard to replace. They are strike force and squad commanders in my opinion under direct command of the matriarch. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 22:24:35
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| Actually, it's more complicated than that. The Weapon Masters are the military leaders of a House's soldiery, and in that respect ONLY, they can and sometimes do command female soldiers and even other females (Though never the High Priestesses, and when they tell them what to o, it's always in the way of "advising".) They are also responsible for TRAINING all of the warriors- both male AND female- of a House, so they can order even a priestess around during training. Although they fall under the authority of the priesthood and directly under the Matrons themselves, they DO have more power than almost any males in a drow city. And given the fact that the females concern themselves primarily with politics and matters of state and Lolth's favor, rather than studying strategy and tactics for battles, it is in their best interests to keep their Weapon Masters happy and give them some measure of authority and respect, or else they might very well turn on them! (I had several House Weapon Masters band together and do this in my HB world campaign, which led to a major rebellion in which nearly half the Houses were overthrown, because all their forces turned on them and all they had left were a few priestesses, who were either slain or forced to acknowledge the new regime.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 19 Dec 2010 : 22:46:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, it's more complicated than that. The Weapon Masters are the military leaders of a House's soldiery, and in that respect ONLY, they can and sometimes do command female soldiers and even other females (Though never the High Priestesses, and when they tell them what to o, it's always in the way of "advising".) They are also responsible for TRAINING all of the warriors- both male AND female- of a House, so they can order even a priestess around during training. Although they fall under the authority of the priesthood and directly under the Matrons themselves, they DO have more power than almost any males in a drow city. And given the fact that the females concern themselves primarily with politics and matters of state and Lolth's favor, rather than studying strategy and tactics for battles, it is in their best interests to keep their Weapon Masters happy and give them some measure of authority and respect, or else they might very well turn on them! (I had several House Weapon Masters band together and do this in my HB world campaign, which led to a major rebellion in which nearly half the Houses were overthrown, because all their forces turned on them and all they had left were a few priestesses, who were either slain or forced to acknowledge the new regime.)
That's a wonderful idea!  Was there any religious basis to this revolt (as in, followers of Vhaeraun or Ghaunadar doing it), or was it just Weapon Masters tired of getting the short end of the stick from their Matrons? |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Dec 2010 22:48:10 |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 00:48:12
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| Well, the thing with weapons instructors is that they have to be higher ranked than everyone else except for the House Matron within their salles in order to teach. Even then, the matron would technically be equal and not subordinate. The house weapons master would need to have the authority within their training environment to give orders to everyone (including any of the matron's daughters) and have them obeyed, else the students' safety gets compromised. While I'm pretty sure that a house matron doesn't care overmuch for the well being of her subordinates, it also doesn't do to endanger their lives in unprofitable ventures. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 01:18:10
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No doubt the blame for excessive casualties often falls upon the weaponmasters instead of on their students, being perceived (by the matrons) as the consequence of faulty or inferior instruction. The weaponmasters would be cautious when expending lives, since their authority in drow society depends a great deal on their success; repeated failure brings questions about competence and invites challengers who wish to promote themselves.
Although drow society can punish mistakes and weakness severely, the drow as a people are generally united and do not rampantly slay each other without provocation. They are competitive to the extreme and well adapted to prevailing in many unrelated methods of conflict, but they are also smart enough to realize that the resources of the community are greater than the skills of any one drow. Weaponmasters are likely given exactly the amount of authority their station requires, to best serve their houses, and relations between them and their matrons might sometimes be formed from the "softer" bonds of loyalty, love, and respect. Just because drow are evil doesn't mean they're always cruel, sadistic, and murderous; they strive to be strong enough to take what the weak cannot defend, they remain strong and prepared so that other drow cannot prey upon them. Houses without worthy weaponmasters train poor warriors. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 05:19:46
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Competitive in the extreme, eh? Lol, aye, they DO take social Darwinism to extremes unheard of in RL or other in-game races! Also, I really don't see those relations having much to do with love or loyalty, given their "every-man-for-him/herself" attitude and their general selfish outlook. It's simply convenient for them to have an amicable relationship with the Matrons, since they know they can have them disposed of at any time for failure or simply displeasing them in some way. They may not ALWAYS be cruel, sadistic, etc, but it's ingrained into their society to such a degree that it's EXPECTED. And chances are, if students are dropping during training, it's likely at the hands of rival classmates wanting to thin out the competition for the top spots- and the favor of their Weapon Masters and Matrons, by extension.
Wooly- It was actually a true gender war, although many of the leaders were indeed turning to Vaerhaun and Selvatarm (rather than Ghaunadaur- I have little use for an ooze-god in my world. And Vaerhaun goes by Mordos in it.). In fact, the ringleader (and now "king") had made a pact with Vaerhaun, though he was not a "follower" as such. The current state in my drow cities is of a stale-mate, with the remaining Matrons grudgingly accepting the authority of the new king and his alliance of Patron-led houses, while still retaining rule over their own Houses. Some have chosen to take positions as the Consorts of the male leaders, in the hopes of eventually seizing back their on power. They barely tolerate this current state of affairs, but are biding their time to strike back once they can amass enough power. ATM, they are simply too concerned with keeping what they have left to even try. Incidentally, the society is largely maritime and piratical in nature, making the males' eventual rise almost a given. (The matrons were the stay-at-home rulers running things, while the males went out to plunder coastal ships and towns. They just got tired of not calling the shots at home like they did on their ships.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 08:32:14
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| I perceive gith societies as being equally "inhuman" - meaning, hard and unforgiving. Drow and gith do raise children, make friends, perform acts of heroism to earn respect from their families, friends, and enemies. They wouldn't even have loyalty or pride nor care about appearance and social status if these things weren't instilled in them, and they can't possibly cultivate friendships or raise families and students in a completely unfeeling ruthless manner ... some capacity for bonds of compassion, love, and affection must exist or they'd just be a society of impassionate warlike Spocks. The priestesses clearly demonstrate drow capacities for treachery, indifference, cruelty, and sadism. Drizzt clearly demonstrates drow capacities for introspection, love, hate, guilt, shame, and reams of generally unmanly embarassing emo stuff. |
[/Ayrik] |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 09:31:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
(I had several House Weapon Masters band together and do this in my HB world campaign, which led to a major rebellion in which nearly half the Houses were overthrown, because all their forces turned on them and all they had left were a few priestesses, who were either slain or forced to acknowledge the new regime.)
I can't see something like this happening. As long as Lolth has a say in this she will give her pristresses enough might to prevent this (powerfull spells, demons to assist etc).
When she is tied up with something like during her Silence it would be very dangerous to do a coup too because than the city would be very weak and all their enemies (and there are a lot) would take the chance to conquer and murder or ensalve them all.
Gromph thought about something like this during Lolths Silence too, but din't do it for the told reasons. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 11:11:52
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
(I had several House Weapon Masters band together and do this in my HB world campaign, which led to a major rebellion in which nearly half the Houses were overthrown, because all their forces turned on them and all they had left were a few priestesses, who were either slain or forced to acknowledge the new regime.)
I can't see something like this happening. As long as Lolth has a say in this she will give her pristresses enough might to prevent this (powerfull spells, demons to assist etc).
When she is tied up with something like during her Silence it would be very dangerous to do a coup too because than the city would be very weak and all their enemies (and there are a lot) would take the chance to conquer and murder or ensalve them all.
Gromph thought about something like this during Lolths Silence too, but din't do it for the told reasons.
I personally find it quite plausible. We know there are drow cities that are not dominated by Lolth's priestesses, and this is very much a way that could have come about, in some of those cities. |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 15:31:20
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Maybe or they got build by outcasts of other cities and are either unintersting for Lolth priestresses or they got enough power bevor getting noticed so that it would cost to much to overthrow them now.
In any case I can't see a city like Menzoberranzan ( is there any other like it?  ) getting overthrown while Lolth is around, expect maybe when a nother powerfull god is behind the atempt |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 20 Dec 2010 15:32:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 16:32:08
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Maybe or they got build by outcasts of other cities and are either unintersting for Lolth priestresses or they got enough power bevor getting noticed so that it would cost to much to overthrow them now.
In any case I can't see a city like Menzoberranzan ( is there any other like it? ) getting overthrown while Lolth is around, expect maybe when a nother powerfull god is behind the atempt
There are, in canon FR, drow cities where Lolth's matriarchy has been overthrown and/or has never managed to dominate the city the way it happens in Menzoberranzan.
On a related note, in 2E lore, Menzoberranzan was considered to be about average in both size and importance. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 20 Dec 2010 : 23:36:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Maybe or they got build by outcasts of other cities and are either unintersting for Lolth priestresses or they got enough power bevor getting noticed so that it would cost to much to overthrow them now.
In any case I can't see a city like Menzoberranzan ( is there any other like it? ) getting overthrown while Lolth is around, expect maybe when a nother powerfull god is behind the atempt
There are, in canon FR, drow cities where Lolth's matriarchy has been overthrown and/or has never managed to dominate the city the way it happens in Menzoberranzan.
On a related note, in 2E lore, Menzoberranzan was considered to be about average in both size and importance.
And both Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark and the 3e Underdark tome, provide some intriguing details on these locations. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2010 : 06:52:01
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| Aye. Sshamath is one such city. As a matter of fact, Jarlaxle, the society in my HB campaigns did in fact gain a great deal of power before the coup, simply by convincing many of the soldiers and male nobles that they could have more power and wealth by banding together and turning on their Matrons. Of course, there's much more to it, like the internal power-struggles within many of the houses, including the First House (in which the current ruler's sole heir is a male- which leads to more contetntion between him and his High Priestess consort- and who eventually goes AWOL after getting tired of being used as a pawn between his parents.). |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2010 : 08:22:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Menzoberranzan was considered to be about average in both size and importance.
Yes but it seems to be Lolths favorite playground, but maybe I'm comparing other drow cities to much with it.
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2010 : 08:28:48
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| Damn you, Drizzt. You made this city the most favorite tourist place... |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2010 : 09:16:58
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Menzoberranzan was considered to be about average in both size and importance.
Yes but it seems to be Lolths favorite playground, but maybe I'm comparing other drow cities to much with it.
Rather, it seems to be the most well-known drow city, I mean, most of the material we have covers it. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2010 : 06:12:47
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| If not, maybe they should! "I Survived Menzoberranzan and all I got was this lousy t-shirt!" XD |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2010 : 06:36:03
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| I did receive one of these as a gift. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2010 : 18:03:03
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Indeed, from my time spent in the Great Utter Dark, I can say with utmost surety that nae a male wields power such that the softer gender employs!
Ev'en the Weapon Masters of the great drow houses bow and supplicate before even the meanest female. Much in the same way a noble King may be trained by a common swordsman, such is the relationship between male sword-masters and female drow! Nae'er would a common soldier/sword instructor command King Azoun V, even during the young King's harshest traing!
The drow-all are bitter, evil creatures, and Menzoberanzan is perhaps the cruelest of all drow cities. The matriarchy of Menzoberranzan is absolute; aye, drow-men are given blades only so that they may die wielding them, and in great number!! |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 07:21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed, from my time spent in the Great Utter Dark, I can say with utmost surety that nae a male wields power such that the softer gender employs!
"Softer" gender? Female Drow elves? Have you the brain worms?!
Soft was not the first descriptor that came to mind. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 08:50:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Indeed, from my time spent in the Great Utter Dark, I can say with utmost surety that nae a male wields power such that the softer gender employs!
"Softer" gender? Female Drow elves? Have you the brain worms?!
Soft was not the first descriptor that came to mind.
Seconded. I think this male has been whipped one too many times. Or the illithids scrambled his mind. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 08:52:55
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| He is Vhaeraunite, no doubt. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Erdrick Stormedge
Learned Scribe
132 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 15:57:07
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Ho ho! I catch your meaning, but nae!
Drow females secrete a particular humour which causes their ebon skin to be far softer than that of males. Having bedded many drow of both genders (usually in polymorphed form), and also having dissected nearly as many, I can assure you that the females are indeed softer!
The life of toil that the men of Menzoberranzan endure also harden their skins, as well!
Now, as to the my familiarity with the drowish lash, I have certainly been flogged by many drow, and flogged quite a few myself, but this was all in love-play. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 16:11:05
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| Erdrick ... have ye been spiking your potions a little with strong dwarven drink? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 16:23:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Erdrick Stormedge
Ho ho! I catch your meaning, but nae!
Drow females secrete a particular humour which causes their ebon skin to be far softer than that of males. Having bedded many drow of both genders (usually in polymorphed form), and also having dissected nearly as many, I can assure you that the females are indeed softer!
The life of toil that the men of Menzoberranzan endure also harden their skins, as well!
Now, as to the my familiarity with the drowish lash, I have certainly been flogged by many drow, and flogged quite a few myself, but this was all in love-play.
This is really disturbing. In about five different ways.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8041 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2010 : 16:36:51
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Maybe he ran into some mind-flayers while he was down in Menzo ...
Or maybe those "drow secretions" were some sort of hallucinogenic neurotoxin, that makes sense to me. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Drow Society
