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 Did Larloch know Karsus?
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jordanz
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Posted - 26 Apr 2010 :  02:52:19  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I wonder if they were rivals of some sort.

sfdragon
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Posted - 26 Apr 2010 :  03:42:00  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would imagine Larloch might have known Ioluam back way back when..... so yes I imagine he knew Karsus, or atleast of him. to know for certain, You'd have to ask Ed Greenwood.

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


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Knight of the Gate
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Posted - 26 Apr 2010 :  05:40:43  Show Profile Send Knight of the Gate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Being as there weren't that many flying enclaves (I int know how many off the top of my head but I think a few dozen) and both men were rulers of said enclaves, they surely knew of each other and its certainly within the realm of possibility that they had personal knowledge of each other. I doubt that they were rivals, though- I would think that Larloch would have a rival under close surveillance and thus would have known of karsus' plan and stopped him. Just my thinking.

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_Jarlaxle_
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Posted - 26 Apr 2010 :  06:35:29  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

I wonder if they were rivals of some sort.


All of them where rivals of some sort
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Alisttair
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Posted - 26 Apr 2010 :  12:52:07  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think their views on how to become immortals was quite different (Lichdom vs Godhood). I wouldn't be surprised if Larloch thought of Karsus as a fool for his ways (even before the Fall). Heck, he probably knew such a thing would happen and probably survived the Fall based on this knowledge/suspicion. But definately, both being ultra powewrful rulers of their respective enclaves, they would definately know of each other if not have met on numerous occasions for a cup of tea.

Oh and Larloch will be made the fool when Karsus' plan comes to full fruition when he regains his divinity and rules over new Netheril

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Tyranthraxus
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Netherlands
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Posted - 26 Apr 2010 :  13:26:54  Show Profile  Visit Tyranthraxus's Homepage Send Tyranthraxus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Oh and Larloch will be made the fool when Karsus' plan comes to full fruition when he regains his divinity and rules over new Netheril



I don't think the Shadovar/Netheril like Karsus after what he's done to Netheril back in the day. I thought about it raising Karsus as an exarch of Shar, but he's more interesting when he's dead
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Alisttair
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Posted - 26 Apr 2010 :  16:34:06  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No he is more interesting when he is ALIVE and RULING as is his RIGHT!!!

Long live KARSUS!!!!!!!!!!

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jordanz
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Posted - 26 Apr 2010 :  17:06:41  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair

No he is more interesting when he is ALIVE and RULING as is his RIGHT!!!

Long live KARSUS!!!!!!!!!!




If it came down to a confrontation between Karsus and Larloch , does would a non divine Karsus stand a chance?
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Alisttair
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Posted - 26 Apr 2010 :  17:45:05  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair

No he is more interesting when he is ALIVE and RULING as is his RIGHT!!!

Long live KARSUS!!!!!!!!!!




If it came down to a confrontation between Karsus and Larloch , does would a non divine Karsus stand a chance?



It would be an battle of epic proportions and I can see it going back and forth with no clear cut winner in the end.

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

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Cleric Generic
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Posted - 26 Apr 2010 :  20:37:14  Show Profile  Visit Cleric Generic's Homepage Send Cleric Generic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz

quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair

No he is more interesting when he is ALIVE and RULING as is his RIGHT!!!

Long live KARSUS!!!!!!!!!!




If it came down to a confrontation between Karsus and Larloch , does would a non divine Karsus stand a chance?



Bwahaha! Awesome question...

If it was Larlock at his curret/last recorded power level vs Karsus at his (non-divine) peak then you'd probably have a hole in the map that puts the 4e Underchasm to shame.

As for the winner?

ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!

Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!

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Nicolai Withander
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Posted - 26 Apr 2010 :  23:02:55  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If we take both Larloch and Karsus at their peak, than karsus was a lvl 41 or was it 42 arcanist. With the power and knowledge to cast lvl 10-11 and even 12 as we all know. But what good is all that going to do, when Larloch by rituals of great power has become 100% immune to magic???

Karsus could hurl what ever lvl spell at Larloch, and he would at the end be totally unharmed!!!

So there can be no doubt... Larloch would win agains any spellcaster the realms have ever seen!
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 26 Apr 2010 :  23:57:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, folks, let's steer away from the X versus Y discussions, please.

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Jakk
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2165 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2010 :  01:01:21  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair

<chop>
Oh and Larloch will be made the fool when Karsus' plan comes to full fruition when he regains his divinity and rules over new Netheril



Er... who's to say that restoring Karsus to divinity as a single deity of magic isn't Larloch's plan?

Edit: Yes, I realize the improbability of such a scenario... I just thought I'd play lich's advocate for a moment... it probably has something to do with my profile pic...

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 27 Apr 2010 01:03:45
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Nicolai Withander
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Posted - 27 Apr 2010 :  12:10:51  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well Larloch could have used his long life, to plan something so powerful that he would need all of his self given powers.

For instance, Larloch recieved 2 sheets from the netherscrolls by mystra... An evil lich would have to do something big og promice to do something big to get that kind of gift.

My thought is that he was put in charge om protecting Mystra/ the Weave. Since he's evil, he could be closer to Mystras enemies.
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Alisttair
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Posted - 27 Apr 2010 :  14:25:42  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps Larloch has taken the formula for Karsus' Avatar and is still working on the bugs (taking millenia to figure out) and the Spellplague is either slowing it down further...or accelerating it...

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Quale
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Posted - 27 Apr 2010 :  16:18:51  Show Profile Send Quale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Larloch was beneath Karsus' notice back then.

Larloch secretly loved Karsus and been depressed ever since.
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Alisttair
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Posted - 27 Apr 2010 :  18:38:37  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Laroloch didn't choose to become a Lich. His very existence is but an experiment of Karsus'. In fact, Karsus intends to utilize Larloch's Un-lfe force as a means to bring himself back (he is merely a tool like Xvim was a tool of Bane's)

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  01:11:42  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair

Laroloch didn't choose to become a Lich. His very existence is but an experiment of Karsus'. In fact, Karsus intends to utilize Larloch's Un-lfe force as a means to bring himself back (he is merely a tool like Xvim was a tool of Bane's)



I think there's more evidence that the current "Bane" is really Xvim. And there's pretty much no evidence of your theory.

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Jakk
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  03:47:14  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair

Laroloch didn't choose to become a Lich. His very existence is but an experiment of Karsus'. In fact, Karsus intends to utilize Larloch's Un-lfe force as a means to bring himself back (he is merely a tool like Xvim was a tool of Bane's)



I'm more interested by the idea that Larloch intends to use what remains of Karsus' divine energies for some other purpose as yet unknown to us. Muahahaha, and so forth.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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jordanz
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553 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  07:08:06  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
[ But what good is all that going to do, when Larloch by rituals of great power has become 100% immune to magic???





I always assumed the cap for that immunity was at 9th level spells.Any immunity that would include epic spell levels in my mind crosses over to DIVINE level power-which is just out of Larloch's reach IMO.
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_Jarlaxle_
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Germany
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  09:30:12  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

But what good is all that going to do, when Larloch by rituals of great power has become 100% immune to magic???


Where do you get that from?

Lords of darkness says the following
quote:

Immunities (Ex): Larloch is immune to cold, electricity,
polymorph, and mind-affecting attacks. Larloch is also
immune to one arcane spell per spell level, but which spells
those are is unknown.

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Cleric Generic
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  09:58:12  Show Profile  Visit Cleric Generic's Homepage Send Cleric Generic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Once you've gotten to the obscene power levels of Larloch 'because he wants to' is pretty much all the explanation for an ability you need. Some uber-spell whereby he could summon a number of small anti-magic zones that move and change shape/size at his whim is not out of the question.

Also, being a lich, I'd imagine he's also immune to poison, disease and negative energy (the harmful effects, at least).

Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!

ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!

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_Jarlaxle_
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  10:15:36  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of course you can give your Larloch in your own game/world everything you can imagine, like you can do with every other character. But I'm curious if there is any canon source saying that he is imune to all magic, because I never found one.
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Cleric Generic
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  11:48:57  Show Profile  Visit Cleric Generic's Homepage Send Cleric Generic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
cool cool! Yeah, Lords of Darkness (3e) says he's got permanent spell reflection and a massive catalogue of contingency spells, but nothing specific about spell immunity.

Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!

ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!

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Alisttair
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  15:11:49  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair

Laroloch didn't choose to become a Lich. His very existence is but an experiment of Karsus'. In fact, Karsus intends to utilize Larloch's Un-lfe force as a means to bring himself back (he is merely a tool like Xvim was a tool of Bane's)



I think there's more evidence that the current "Bane" is really Xvim. And there's pretty much no evidence of your theory.



Agreed that Xvim is parading around as Bane, but the fool let the evidence slip, thus proving that Karsus is far superior in that no clues are evident other than his worshippers such as I and Cleric Generic.

Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)

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jordanz
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  16:36:29  Show Profile  Visit jordanz's Homepage Send jordanz a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander


Since he's evil, he could be closer to Mystras enemies.



I always wondered about this. What makes Larloch patently evil? If he wanted he could have trampled over half of Faruen. I always saw him
as an insanely selfish Neutral.
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Cleric Generic
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  18:41:44  Show Profile  Visit Cleric Generic's Homepage Send Cleric Generic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Larloch could trample most of the continent, true, but there wouldn't be much point and it would be like firing the first shot in a nuclear war; everybody empties their arsenals and everybody dies / crawls back to the caves.

'Evil' is pretty vague anyway, it could be anything from being a bit of an a**hole to being hell-bent on total genocide. In this case, I'd imagine 'evil' means he couldn't care less how many worthless mortals get vaporised in the course of his research and other endeavours, but he's otherwise not actively hostile.

in other news...

LO! THE NEW TEMPLE OF LORD KARSUS DOES RISE! ALL SHALL TREMBLE BEFORE HIM! ALL SHALL BOW BEFORE THE RISEN LORD OF THE ARCANE!!!

(note: just being silly, fyi, all in good humour :p )

Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!

ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!

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Edited by - Cleric Generic on 28 Apr 2010 18:42:53
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Alisttair
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  18:44:32  Show Profile  Visit Alisttair's Homepage Send Alisttair a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Larloch's plans are reach further beyond the Material Plane whereas Karsus thought mostly about Faerun in general and Netheril in particular...

which is all that truly matters FOR KARSUS WILL ONCE AGAIN RULE NETHERIL AND IN TIME ALL OF TORIL!!

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Cleric Generic
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  18:46:51  Show Profile  Visit Cleric Generic's Homepage Send Cleric Generic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IA! IA! KARSUS FHTAGN!

Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!

ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!

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Nicolai Withander
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  20:26:24  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well the total magic immunity Ive gotten from FR wiki. But here is how it goes: One of Larloch's given-to-himself powers (which - in a long and secret personally-developed process - cost him 10 years of life and some vitality, irrelevant of course given his lichdom) is automatic spell reflection (of all magic cast upon him). He can by act of will override this ability, for example when he wants to work a spell on himself; otherwise, it always operates.

Thus far, neither psionics nor mind-influencing magics have ever been effective against him or any of his underlings.


If it is all magic cast on upon him then thats prette much the same, and that to me is the same as 100% magic immunity. Ad least thats how I would play him.


True that he does not act "evil" like a demon would act, but some of the reasons for that could be due to his relationship with Mystra. For some reason he got 2 sheets of the Nether Scrolls from her, so im pretty sure that they have some kind of agreement of some sort. Adleast enough to let him keep doing what ever he is doing. What ever that might be... Well good luck getting that out of THO or Ed!!!!


One last thing. He got atleast 3 demi lichs under his command, and if you are powerful enough to command, not only about 60 epic lvl lichs, 20 or so vampire lords a host of lesser undead and 3 demi lichs, then you have power so extreme that it would rival any god. As I see it 100% magic immunity would fit nicely into his "given to himself Powers". It would be very naive to think that so many, so powerful, undead would follow his command out of sheere respect. To me it would be more plausible if there were his underlings because they knew he was more powerful than all of them combined!!!!

Well thats just my theory! Im sure that Ed, THO, Woolly or Mr. Sage, could give a more "true" perspective on this!!!

Wink wink

Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 28 Apr 2010 20:33:42
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Cleric Generic
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Posted - 28 Apr 2010 :  20:44:08  Show Profile  Visit Cleric Generic's Homepage Send Cleric Generic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup, infallible spell reflection is basically infallible spell immunity that gives the caster a good slap for their trouble.

As for a deal with Mystra, she seems to like anything with uber magical abilities. I vaguely recall Daurgothoth, "The Creeping Doom" was favoured by Mystra (ultimate black dracolich archmage). Her remit is magic regardless of alignment, after all.

EDIT: Yeah, straight up immunity would certainly by in keeping, at least up to and including low end epic spells (or lvl 10). If he and a few of his most battle hardened lich buddies knew what was going on, they could easily take down a demigod (3e stats assumed here). Much more than that and the divine rank wotsits will start being a serious problem.

Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!

ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!

Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl

2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html

Edited by - Cleric Generic on 28 Apr 2010 20:55:49
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