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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
 Posted - 07 May 2010 : 16:30:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Riverwind
I do have a little bit of problem with this. Waterdeep is the most powerful city in the north and should show some leadership and not just use their allies as a buffer. Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but maybe the Silver Marches was formed because they were sick of Waterdeep's lack of leadership through the Lord's Alliance, "if you're no going to get tough, we will."
Show some leadership to cities that don't want its leadership?
Letting your allies maintain their own armed forces and maintain their own borders is not being weak or failing to show leadership. Those cities are defending themselves -- they're not trying to defend Waterdeep; that's just a happy coincidence for Waterdeep.
Well Wooly, I think the cities of the Silver Marches wanted more leadership and defense otherwise they would have never formed the Confederation. I think clearly the agreements under the Lords' Alliance was not enough.
But they didn't exactly come crawling to Waterdeep begging to be protected either did they? I am not sure they would be that grateful if Waterdeep just decided to step in and take over. Especially if it was done for "their own good". These are old and independent areas and cities who aren't all that likely to welcome a foreign saviour in exchange for a part of their independence. Even Tilverton wasn't ecstatic about the Cormyrean takeover in the 1350's. And they were in a far worse position than the areas of Luruar.
Then again, I never liked the idea of Luruar in the first place, but that's just me.
Edited a bit to remove some sarcasm for the post. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 07 May 2010 17:29:21 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 16:41:46
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You see, Riverwind, I think the base problem here is that you seem only to be able to look at things from a military perspective. (I have a hammer, so everything is a nail...)
The Lords' Alliance is essentially a POLITICAL organization (closer to the United Nations than to any army), which has military cooperation largely as a deterrent threat to foes, and an incentive/reward to smaller settlements to join.
Thus far, in this thread and in the army thread, you keep advancing proposals to increase personnel strength and build forts here and there and over there, with the "because" being "because (I think it will) strengthen Waterdeep's security by achieving X"
You haven't dealt with the political problems/pitfalls of trying to increase strength and build forts, you brush aside canon-based objections or reasoning from other scribes, and in my case you try to find small faults with my points that you can reply to, but never deal with the essential points at all. Witness your most recently reply to me about Zundbridge, which seems to me to deliberately misinterpret my argument, and ignores my point: that increasing control over the trade road would lead traders to stop using it, and seek another base for trade than Waterdeep.
Trying to correct me about NCIS and ONI with public website information is laughable, from my point of view, and entirely beside the point: you were insisting Waterdeep's navy HAD to have an intelligence arm, and I was pointing out that intelligence was already gathered by other means, and that Waterdeep's navy did not.
Trying to make Waterdeep - - or any other Realms military force or combined forces - - fit a modern real-world American model (which is the model you keep following) just doesn't work, partly because of the medieval-to-Renaissance level of the Realms, partly because of the vastly different geopolitical conditions, and largely because in our real world magic doesn't work, whereas it does in the Realms.
What I (and it seems to me, many of the other posters here) keep trying to make you see is that politics and military matters CAN'T be separated, and that we can't yet see just WHO in Waterdeep would want to make the military moves you advocate AND could manage it. To me, many of your arguments are no more valid than insisting that, say, the Eastern Shaar should be a naval power, even though it has no seas anywhere near its borders. You are starting from a "here's what Waterdeep SHOULD be doing" viewpoint, not a "here's what this person or group in Waterdeep wants to achieve, here's why, and here's how they might go about doing it," which would make for an interesting discussion.
Can you see how how I've reached this viewpoint, myself? Can you grant that I might have a point, about how you're debating in this thread?
love,
THO |
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 17:04:11
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Riverwind, you asked if I have an alternative strategy.
I'm still waiting for you to lay out your strategy. You've told us I'd build this fort and I'd recruit many, many more troops, but never told us who the "I" is when it's someone in Waterdeep and not Riverwind.
To say nothing of the "how" you'd do these things, and deal with the pushback from everyone around in the Sword coast region who sees Waterdeep doing these things.
So I don't see a strategy from you, yet, to offer an alternative to.
However, let me accept for a moment that you have laid out a coherent strategy. You have thus far overlooked/ignored/not addressed an alternative strategy that was set forth (by Blueblade, I think, though I'd have to wade back to make sure) of an undercover wizard-dominated Waterdeep security force.
That strategy, coupled with a separate "spies on the ground" intelligence-gathering arm throughout the region that can't be directly linked to the wizards by a rival power "killing their way" up the spy network, would seem MUCH more effective and flexible than the forts and boots approach you seem to be advocating.
(Much of border America and Canada are covered with the ruins or the sites of forts that have been long abandoned, so it seems that what worked - - or was thought to have worked - - at one time, militarily, no longer does.) I think the point made by THO and others that having battle magic widely available sharply lessens the utility of forts and boots stands very strongly. So does the point, again made by many, that Waterdeep has turned its back on that approach, and doesn't work that way "today." You seem to be judging them fools for that open-doors-trade, balancing act, low-military approach, and be trying to steer/shove/quickly get them onto the road to become a military titan...and I just don't see the will to accept the change as being present in Waterdeep's populace, still less so in the majority of the people within its walls, who are visiting outlander traders coming to Waterdeep to trade (as THO keeps pointing out to you, they'll just go somewhere else that they see as friendlier to trade, if you do the military/greater security act).
So...the alternative strategy I favor is already on the table. And was when you challenged me to provide it.
So it's my turn to issue a challenge: it's time to deal with the counter-points I and THO and other scribes are making, and stop the sniping and nit-picking.
(Riverwind, your recent post that conflates a strong government security stance with security along the trade-roads is a perfect example of the latter. You reference many canon passages to prove that the roads are patrolled, which is something that was never in dispute; a classic "straw man" argument. I don't feel you've fairly and properly answered anything I've posted at all; to me, it feels more like you continually deflect me with answers that don't apply to my points. And the PM you sent me was utterly insulting. Just FYI: I learned to read and do research decades ago. You, too?) |
Edited by - Broken Helm on 07 May 2010 17:07:11 |
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Broken Helm
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 17:13:07
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Here is the nub of the problem, to me.
Riverwind, from your opening post in this thread: "So, I'm guessing when ships are in dock, those troops man the harbour forts and walls (no rest.)
So right now, the Navy is understaffed."
I GUESS this, therefore THIS conclusion is fact, and off we go...
We've got Ed Greenwood's ear here at the Keep, via THO. You can just ask him. He wrote a lot of the passages you've been quoting or referencing.
When something seems wrong or inadequate to you, why not just jaunt over to his Questions thread and ask him?
Then hold your fire on whatever specific thing you've asked him about until you have his reply (which by definition is canon), incorporate that reply into your unfolding thinking, and we can proceed.
You could just think of it as our own intelligence arm.  |
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A Gavel
Seeker
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2010 : 17:22:03
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I agree with the preceding three posts about the tone and tenor of debate in this thread.
Riverwind, Broken Helm earlier posted: "I think it was very well put in the army thread: we haven't yet identified just who in Waterdeep would strengthen the army or navy (or how they would pay for it), nor how Waterdeep would deal with the wider political ramifications (amongst both allies and rivals). THO has reiterated several times how Waterdeep's prosperity/trade popularity is directly related to the balancing act they are depicted in the published rules as doing, and you just ignore that point. There's not much point in assembling huge armies if you bankrupt the city you're fighting for, or cause them to become a shunned backwater."
You quoted that post, and replied: "Well I'm not sure I'm talking about a huge army, just a larger one."
Understood. So let's remove Broken Helm's last sentence from the quoted passage, and your reply that dealt with it.
Can you address the two remaining sentences? Several scribes have now requested you do so. Thank you. |
Edited by - A Gavel on 07 May 2010 17:22:42 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36891 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2010 : 04:37:50
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If the horde was already there, any troops Waterdeep sent would simply be cut down en route.
And why would that be? Can't they fight on their way to Luruar?
Because we're talking about an orc horde. The key word here is horde.
Unless Waterdeep was to field an army in the tens of thousands, they would be swarmed by orcs before getting close enough to do anything. A Waterdhavian army would be badly outnumbered and in the open, against a force that wouldn't care about losses.
Of course, it's possible that the orcs would siege a place, rather than sack it and keep going... But that would still leave our Waterdhavians outnumbered, quickly surrounded, and outside of any protective fortifications.
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
How was it than possible that they where able to send troops to Evereska, whicht they don't even have an alliance, to fight the phearim?
As I recall, it was fighting a distant threat before it became a close threat.
They used a lot of magic to move troops, and even then, it still didn't go great for the Waterdhavians. It must also be pointed out that that trilogy's adherence to prior canon is oftentimes questionable. |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2010 : 08:58:18
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Riverwind, someone already said that those villages you mentioned are already working on protecting themselves, and thus protecting Waterdeep as well by way of 'happy coincidence.'
Getting a few things clear:
-The Lords of Waterdeep and Magisters operate more as referees, rather than a typical oligarchy. Thus someone coming up w/domineering proposals propagated by fear tactics (which is what expanding Waterdeep's defenses amount to, given there is no threat of such severity that hasn't already been carefully considered) would hold little weight in a city-state like Waterdeep. In America and other countries of this world, that could get you elected into various offices and even keep you there. But along the Sword Coast, if it may get someone elected, it most likely wouldn't be able keep'em there. By hook or by crook at that. This due to how someone can grow preternaturally powerful by battle prowress or magicks or faith in Toril, rather than the fat-happy tactics of obtaining personal 'power' by monetary wealth, as is the main way to 'power' on Earth. Easy translation: Skills that bleed w/substance are of much more value in Toril, whereas brownosing, pandering, and fear tactics are the main orders of the day on Earth, regarding acquisition of 'power.'
-Waterdhavian merchants have settled into Waterdeep due to "merchants feel unoppressed, lightly taxed, and lightly watched" as was said on the last post on page 4 of this thread. W/this in mind, we should also consider that Waterdeep is in the North, where there is winter, and that city-states like Baldur's Gate and even the isle of Mintarn may be percieved by merchants as having better weather. Now w/all that in mind, the Lords and Magisters of Waterdeep have every incentive to not raise taxes and keep the system as it is, in order to keep the seasonal merchants---which we'd do well to remember that they've thier homes in other far-off lands---to continue coming, so that the Waterdhavian economy doesn't falter or outright collapse. As then even the prominent permanent residents would then look to live in areas where they can make the same type of coin kill as before (ie-Amn; better yet, Baldur's Gate or Mintarn, if the former Waterdhavian seasonal merchants move thier businesses there, in light of Waterdeep raising taxes to build an army that defeats the purpose and foundation that the city's prosperity was built upon).
-It would appear as though a person proposing a stronger military for Waterdeep wouldn't consider that the merchants and nobles of the city are already on the ball of making provision for safe(r) roads and waterways for their exporting, importing, and shipments. I reckon they do by hiring rangers, scouts, runners and even magic users and priests (of Waukeen ) to scout the lands and mountains for brigands, orcs, and other dangers, before beginning the process of moving goods.
I'm sure some rich and powerful merchants even have eyes and ears amongst the goings on of pirates and merchants of Skullport, much like how Lord Nasher has Aarin Gend (from the C-RPG Neverwinter Nights), either by catching a crook in thier domain and having mercy on him by employing him as such, or by thier own underworld dealings to go w/their more respectable enterprises.
W/all this in mind, not only are the various Waterdhavian powers doing what they can to make the tradeways safe for Waterdeep, but the merchants, nobility, and guilds are undoubtedly doing so as well, even via the money they save by not being as taxed as businessmen in Amn are. Now that might not be canon---I haven't read Waterdeep sourcebooks to their fullest, nor have I ever ran a campaign there---but it can easily be inferred, as merchants got to have some sort of intelligence or enterprise to be able to make thier fortunes in the North Sword Coast, when so many other locations in Faerun would seem like better options to work one's way to a prosperous living.
And whether all I juss wrote is canon or not, its certainly a more economical approach to making the tradeways safer, than taxing residents for to make a stronger army by the gov't, which'd then make the gov't more powerful, and take away the influence the nobles, guilds, and merchants already wield in the city---and thus fall under the same trappings that the city's history already went through w/Raurlor.
I've written all of that to state two things:
1) I can't think of any way why the leaders and citizens of Waterdeep and the surrounding villages would want a stronger army. And I can't think of a way how someone could propose it without eventually being shunned out of both the social community of the city, and the friendly business communications of the city.
2) Given we're in a thread about Waterdeep's Navy (I didn't plan on touching thier army in this thread, but what I've stated earlier here should suffice as to why I believe its not a good idea to expand it), there's one bit of canon lore which I don't believe is found in any canon sourcebooks, and is thus forgivably overlooked by those who consider strengthening Waterdeep's navy. And that's about everyone's favourite bronze dragon, Lhammaruntosz "The Claws of the Coast," who was canonized in Dragon #245 during 2e, and re-canonized on Wizards.com in '03 for 3e.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20030326a
In essence, Waterdhavian merchants take steps, or in the Scaly Eye's case, find boons, which then become known to almost everyone paying attention in the industries thereof, to make provision for safer travels against the dangers on the tradeways, waterways, and in regards to potential war. And nobody of any competence and sanity is stupid enough to war w/Waterdeep.
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Edited by - bladeinAmn on 08 May 2010 09:20:03 |
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Waterdeep's Navy
