| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Apr 2010 : 15:02:25
|
WotC stopped PDF's.
I still buy 2E Realms products from www.nobleknight.com  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
 |
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2010 : 16:52:15
|
There's one thing I don't get from everyone that's a post-Spellplague Realms fan. Why do you all say that all of us that don't like the changes are 'abandoning the Realms'. I am in no way abandoning them. I come here everyday, reveling in new lore from Ed's thread, the discussion threads on various subjects like the drow and (although it's been a while since I visited everyone) interacting in the Candlekeep Inn.
If I, and the others here, were truly abandoning the Realms, his forum would have seen a lot LESS of us posting here. Instead, we simply do not like the path WotC chose, but are continuing to keep what we are interested in alive and thriving! |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4438 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2010 : 21:38:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
There's one thing I don't get from everyone that's a post-Spellplague Realms fan. Why do you all say that all of us that don't like the changes are 'abandoning the Realms'. I am in no way abandoning them. I come here everyday, reveling in new lore from Ed's thread, the discussion threads on various subjects like the drow and (although it's been a while since I visited everyone) interacting in the Candlekeep Inn.
Well for myself, I think it's all of the anti-this, anti-that stuff that's been pretty prevalent since the changes which leads me to believe that anything put out now by the Realms is considered by many here to be garbage, un-useful, and irrelevant even before they give this stuff the chance or at least try to adapt it into something they could use.
And just because someone is active in a fan-based site doesn't necessarily mean they want to see a product which they no longer have interest in still flourish. Indeed, some intent I've picked up on was that the changes are so drastic and polarizing that there are some that would rather just see the setting fade away into obilivion or be taken over by someone who shares their ideals of what is "right". I think this is a self-righteous ideal and not beneficial to the community as a whole. So now that the Realms shares more of my themes and likes, that's now considered wrong or "un-Realms-like" by the more vocal posters here. The polarization has come from two fronts to be sure, but there has been very little support for the FR4E since it's start here at CK.
And seriously, I really can't stand the fact that I feel the need to defend the new Realms, which follow my likes and interests. And even if the Realms were to change drastically again, for which ever reason, I would still support the setting with my $$ because I feel there is always something I can use or glean from something this setting, no matter how different.
But that shows that I really do love the setting, because I'm willing to accept what is and move on. In the days of 2e and 3e of which I played, I disliked some of the facts that the Realms had (lots of stuff 4E did away with) but I moved on and adapted. Yet asking others to do the same is too much I guess. Maybe the changes were too drastic for many, but that really isn't my problem.
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
If I, and the others here, were truly abandoning the Realms, this forum would have seen a lot LESS of us posting here. Instead, we simply do not like the path WotC chose, but are continuing to keep what we are interested in alive and thriving!
I disagree only because CK has been more tolerant of the anti-FR4e comments and a lot of people who didn't like the changes switched completly to here than WotC site thus increasing the # of posts. And while those here continue to keep an active interest in the setting upto the date of the last edition, I highly doubt people here would lament if WotC stopped producing new Realms-lore all together and would probably rejoice the fact that FR4E seemingly failed.
|
Edited by - Diffan on 04 Apr 2010 21:47:38 |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2010 : 22:20:24
|
Yes, I agree that a good portion of the populace of Candlekeep leans more towards the Spellplague being a bad idea and is considered by some to be a refuge.
But to claim that you 'really love the setting' by supporting the changes also implies that those who don't support the changes don't love it as much as you do. And that's just wrong.
I love the Battletech setting. When WizKids bought the license from from FASA in 2001, they produced the Jihad storyline: reworking the setting to a jump forward 100-years and destroying a LOT of the original setting's characters and setting (they NUKED Outreach for f**k's sake!!) The fans of the original setting were outraged by the changes, which lead to them flocking to FanPro's Classic BattleTech. And look how that turned out. [/rant]
Anyway, you got me ranting again, something I haven't done in a while. All I'm trying to say is that you can be a 'true fan' of a product and still not buy into the official canon of that product. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2010 : 22:43:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
If I, and the others here, were truly abandoning the Realms, his forum would have seen a lot LESS of us posting here. Instead, we simply do not like the path WotC chose, but are continuing to keep what we are interested in alive and thriving!
I have come to accept the 4E Realms.
Its the best Realms that the current design team (Honorable mention to those that have recieved the 'pink slip' recently.) could come up with.
Yes this site has alot more activity than the 3 Realms Forums on the Wizards Site. In one 24 hour period only 8 'threads' in those 3 forums had activity.
I get my REALMS FIX here.
That other site I just clown around in, just ask sfdragon!  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2010 : 22:55:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
If I, and the others here, were truly abandoning the Realms, this forum would have seen a lot LESS of us posting here. Instead, we simply do not like the path WotC chose, but are continuing to keep what we are interested in alive and thriving!
I disagree only because CK has been more tolerant of the anti-FR4e comments and a lot of people who didn't like the changes switched completly to here than WotC site thus increasing the # of posts.
That is simply a nonsensical argument. Post activity and the reason/s behind each post simply have nothing to do with each other. Neither does the permisivity of any forum versus another. Lastly, you are contending that post activity has gone up, whereas (and that was the reason for the start of this thread) quite the opposite is true.
quote:
And while those here continue to keep an active interest in the setting upto the date of the last edition, I highly doubt people here would lament if WotC stopped producing new Realms-lore all together and would probably rejoice the fact that FR4E seemingly failed.
While that may be true for some, you are generalising, and that defeats your argument. Furthermore, you are basing your argument on conjecture. Also, by invalidating the reasons people post on these forums by ascribing nefarious motives to them, invalidates your own contention here. |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
|
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2010 : 23:24:02
|
*Blink* I just have not heard of any new lore I wish to purchase or even read. This however does not translate into I not wanting new lore only because it is written for 4th Edition. Give me a novel that sounds interesting, or even a source book and sale possibility increases of a purchase. I can home rule things I do not like.
Some of the complaint, besides the 100 jumps and mass slaughter of deities is the stated policy of WotC only providing 3 books for each game world. This has been exasperated by the very few FR articles in those ezines that deal with the Realms.
All WotC needs to do is offer something concerning the Realms that I want to purchase. So far they have not come even close to that, based on the previews they have provided. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Zorro
Seeker
Germany
82 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2010 : 23:55:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Well for myself, I think it's all of the anti-this, anti-that stuff that's been pretty prevalent since the changes which leads me to believe that anything put out now by the Realms is considered by many here to be garbage, un-useful, and irrelevant even before they give this stuff the chance or at least try to adapt it into something they could use.
Well, one of the problems is that they don't put out anything if you don't count DDI. (And I refuse to take a publishing model into account that's basically the Magic "Buy it, rip it open, and find out if you can use it" approach applied to an RPG setting.) The other one - and why I consider this judgement to be unfair - is that if someone does not like the premise, they can't be expected to delve into supplemental material. There's just no reason to do so.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Indeed, some intent I've picked up on was that the changes are so drastic and polarizing that there are some that would rather just see the setting fade away into obilivion (...)
Speaking only for myself, a part of me doesn't care (I've been running my changed-beyond-recognition Realms for ages now, so I'm not affected by WotC publishing or not publishing anything at all), a part of me feels with old Realms fans who loved the setting the way it was, and a part of me really, really, really feels sorry for Ed Greenwood who, according to his own words, has fought long and hard to keep the old setting alive. Of course he's much too nice a person to have anything less than words of encouragement and optimism for the fans, but I can only try to imagine how he must feel.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
(...) or be taken over by someone who shares their ideals of what is "right". I think this is a self-righteous ideal and not beneficial to the community as a whole.
I'd love to see what Ed would do if he got total creative control over the setting.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
So now that the Realms shares more of my themes and likes, that's now considered wrong or "un-Realms-like" by the more vocal posters here. The polarization has come from two fronts to be sure, but there has been very little support for the FR4E since it's start here at CK.
If I may offer a conjecture: CK has always seemed to attract non-casual FR players, so to speak. That the majority of the regular CK posters didn't like the New Realms (forgive me for writing Old and New Realms, it's just supposed to separate the two), and that the WotC FR forums are pretty much withering away - the difference in activity between now and, say, two years ago is positively staggering after all -, seem to indicate (at least to me) that the New Realms isn't a particularly popular setting. (I'm not talking about its perceived merits and its perceived shortcomings, just about its popularity.) So I think it stands to reason that the probability of meeting more people here who don't like the NR than those who do is pretty high.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
And seriously, I really can't stand the fact that I feel the need to defend the new Realms, which follow my likes and interests. And even if the Realms were to change drastically again, for which ever reason, I would still support the setting with my $$ because I feel there is always something I can use or glean from something this setting, no matter how different.
I sympathize with your first point, but not with your second one. I could if you had written, "I would support the setting with my $$ as long as Brian James (or any other particular author) is on board, because I can always use the stuff he comes up with." But blindly supporting a setting, regardless of who's involved, I cannot understand. But to be fair, neither could I understand it before 4e.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
But that shows that I really do love the setting, because I'm willing to accept what is and move on.
I don't mean to offend you, but what kind of undemanding love is this? You're practically saying that regardless of what the designers cook up, you're on board. Honestly, what do you think about old fans who don't like the NR? This is not a rhetorical question, I'd really like to know.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
In the days of 2e and 3e of which I played, I disliked some of the facts that the Realms had (lots of stuff 4E did away with) but I moved on and adapted. Yet asking others to do the same is too much I guess.
I disliked very much, too, but I didn't "accept it and move on", I changed what I didn't like. (Which was so much that my Realms don't even have the contents of the OGB with the latest incarnation pre-4e in common, let alone any sourcebook or novel.) Of course it's too much to ask of people to accept what they don't like and use it despite their distaste. No one forced you to accept what you didn't like. No one forces the OR fans what they don't like. Simple as that.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Maybe the changes were too drastic for many, but that really isn't my problem.
Of course not, why would it be?
Zorro |
I think that God in creating Man somewhat overestimated his ability. - Oscar Wilde |
|
|
|
Julian Grimm
Seeker
86 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 00:04:17
|
If I don't like it I don't buy it. That goes for new Realms, Greyhawk or any other world I enjoy. In an ideal world non-support of a bad idea should lead the brass to rethink their actions.In the real world it makes the brass think it is doing poorly and ready for cancellation.
Am I a hard core Realms fan? No. I am above casual but below hard-core. Do I care what happens to the setting? Yes. Which is why I have a problem with RSE's the Spellplague and the ToT. All were forced changes that gives the setting an artificial feel. I am thinking the 4e Realms is the result of disconnected managers trying to make a buck. |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 00:18:16
|
Diffan, the ideals, likes and interests I've stood up for and tried to elucidate down these years re the Realms aren't mine, they're Ed's.
Like what you like, but I'm baffled by the idea of supporting the brand, a mere accident of legal ownership, regardless of what's done with it.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
And while those here continue to keep an active interest in the setting upto the date of the last edition, I highly doubt people here would lament if WotC stopped producing new Realms-lore all together and would probably rejoice the fact that FR4E seemingly failed.
Realms-2008 succeeds for Wizards if the two sourcebooks sell out their print runs and novel sales aren't too badly hit. |
Edited by - Faraer on 05 Apr 2010 00:21:37 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 03:18:49
|
I have a really hard time with the idea that people that don't support the 4E Realms don't support the setting...
I've got gigs of files of things Ed, Steven Schend, Elaine, Krash, and a bunch of other writer/designers have said. I've got gigs of pdfs I paid for out of my own pocket, when those were still available. I've corresponded with several authors by email, including Ed himself.
Before my wrongful banning, I made a name for myself on the WotC FR forums as someone who was knowledgable about the setting and willing to share as much lore as possible. I got banned from there and came over here, and built the same reputation for myself. Most of my non-work internet time is spent on this site, discussing lore with other fans of the setting.
I've got two bookshelves of FR novels. I've got just about every Forgotten Realms product printed. I spent 20 years collecting them all, lost them in a fire, and then bought them all again. So I have literally bought almost everything Realms-related twice over.
How many people can make that last statement?
And yet, despite all that, I'm not a fan of the setting because I don't support it becoming something I don't recognize?
I don't think I could be more insulted right now. In another day and age, I'd be striking you across the face with a glove for making such a statement.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 03:45:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I have a really hard time with the idea that people that don't support the 4E Realms don't support the setting...
I've got gigs of files of things Ed, Steven Schend, Elaine, Krash, and a bunch of other writer/designers have said. I've got gigs of pdfs I paid for out of my own pocket, when those were still available. I've corresponded with several authors by email, including Ed himself.
Before my wrongful banning, I made a name for myself on the WotC FR forums as someone who was knowledgable about the setting and willing to share as much lore as possible. I got banned from there and came over here, and built the same reputation for myself. Most of my non-work internet time is spent on this site, discussing lore with other fans of the setting.
I've got two bookshelves of FR novels. I've got just about every Forgotten Realms product printed. I spent 20 years collecting them all, lost them in a fire, and then bought them all again. So I have literally bought almost everything Realms-related twice over.
How many people can make that last statement?
And yet, despite all that, I'm not a fan of the setting because I don't support it becoming something I don't recognize?
I don't think I could be more insulted right now. In another day and age, I'd be striking you across the face with a glove for making such a statement.
As they say on many other forums:
+1 sir. +1 |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 04:24:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
*Blink* I just have not heard of any new lore I wish to purchase or even read. This however does not translate into I not wanting new lore only because it is written for 4th Edition. Give me a novel that sounds interesting, or even a source book and sale possibility increases of a purchase. I can home rule things I do not like.
Some of the complaint, besides the 100 jumps and mass slaughter of deities is the stated policy of WotC only providing 3 books for each game world. This has been exasperated by the very few FR articles in those ezines that deal with the Realms.
All WotC needs to do is offer something concerning the Realms that I want to purchase. So far they have not come even close to that, based on the previews they have provided.
Thank you for stating that so well, Kentinel. Give me a book I am interested in, and I will certainly put it on my "to buy" list, or at the very least ask my library to order it, in the case of novels. I've done that four times since 4th ed Realms came out, and have enjoyed the ones they got in. But that does NOT mean I'm going to support everything else they put out, just because it still says Forgotten Realms on the cover! If I'm not interested in the material, I simply refuse to put any $$ or support into it. Why should I? I can't use it, or the story does not spark that same feel of enjoyment.
Wooly- you are doing a great service to everyone here, with all your efforts, and I give you a personal two thumbs up and hat's off. Keep it up! And I'm compltely with you, good sir. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 04:33:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've got gigs of files of things Ed, Steven Schend, Elaine, Krash, and a bunch of other writer/designers have said. I've got gigs of pdfs I paid for out of my own pocket, when those were still available. I've corresponded with several authors by email, including Ed himself.
Bah! Got you beat. I'm reaching into the terabyte range now!
But in all seriousness, this is some of the Realmslore that I tend to treasure the most. I love the fact that I can access dozens of folders -- each containing valuable ideas, tidbits, and lore that I've managed to glean from some of our more honoured Lorelords who frequent these halls. Not a day goes by were I don't reference them for something Realms-related that I might be working on.
quote:
Before my wrongful banning, I made a name for myself on the WotC FR forums as someone who was knowledgable about the setting and willing to share as much lore as possible.
Hey, I've been honoured by Krash himself for exactly this reason -- both here and at Wizards. 'Tis a rather humbling experience, let me tell you. 
quote:
Most of my non-work internet time is spent on this site, discussing lore with other fans of the setting.
Sure. If I'm not discussing the Realms here, I'm discussing it on the few other boards I tend to frequent, or in private chat rooms, or even via emails exchanged between myself and fellow Realms goers.
quote:
I've got two bookshelves of FR novels. I've got just about every Forgotten Realms product printed.
The same. Plus, I've probably read everything at least twice [or, in some cases -- especially with respect to Ed, Elaine, or Steven's stuff -- three or more times].
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4688 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 04:50:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Thank you for stating that so well, Kentinel.
Love hate? Derek is waiting. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 15:36:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've got two bookshelves of FR novels. I've got just about every Forgotten Realms product printed. I spent 20 years collecting them all, lost them in a fire, and then bought them all again. So I have literally bought almost everything Realms-related twice over.
How many people can make that last statement?
And yet, despite all that, I'm not a fan of the setting because I don't support it becoming something I don't recognize?
I don't think I could be more insulted right now. In another day and age, I'd be striking you across the face with a glove for making such a statement.
Please, read my PM to you. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
|
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2010 : 21:34:39
|
| Since it is related to the debate here: Clark Peterson of Necromancer Games explains why he thinks Pathfinder is D&D (in contrast to 4e) in this post (in the thread about Clark Peterson supporting Pathfinder instead of 4e in the Paizo forums mentioned in another scroll in this halls). I think he got it right. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
|
|
|
BlackAce
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
358 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 02:00:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I disagree only because CK has been more tolerant of the anti-FR4e comments and a lot of people who didn't like the changes switched completly to here than WotC site thus increasing the # of posts. And while those here continue to keep an active interest in the setting upto the date of the last edition, I highly doubt people here would lament if WotC stopped producing new Realms-lore all together and would probably rejoice the fact that FR4E seemingly failed.
Y'know, I actually agree that quite a few of us harbour a slight desire to see that 4e FR falls flat on its face. But whereas you ascribe it to malice, I'd ascribe it to the faint hope the IP reverts to Ed Greenwood and we get the version of the Realms we all dreamed of. |
|
|
|
Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 02:46:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by BlackAce
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I disagree only because CK has been more tolerant of the anti-FR4e comments and a lot of people who didn't like the changes switched completly to here than WotC site thus increasing the # of posts. And while those here continue to keep an active interest in the setting upto the date of the last edition, I highly doubt people here would lament if WotC stopped producing new Realms-lore all together and would probably rejoice the fact that FR4E seemingly failed.
Y'know, I actually agree that quite a few of us harbour a slight desire to see that 4e FR falls flat on its face. But whereas you ascribe it to malice, I'd ascribe it to the faint hope the IP reverts to Ed Greenwood and we get the version of the Realms we all dreamed of.
I have a mix of hope and fear about this. I'd love for the Realms to find a new publisher at this point, but my fear is that if the game setting doesn't sell and the novels still do, then WotC will turn it into a novels-only setting and we'll never. See. Another. Realms. Gaming. Product. Ever. Again. (Dramatic enough?)
The simple fact is, I think the Realms will continue to be a Wizbro brand as long as Drizzt sells novels. If the Spellplague kills the Realms as a game setting, I suspect that will just mean that we pre-Spellplague Realms fans will have to be content with the old products that are getting more and more difficult to find (legally, anyway) and what homebrew we have time to share on sites like Candlekeep (and, of course, Ed's not-inconsiderable contribution to the 'Keep with the help of THO). But that will still be stifled, because the continued production of post-Spellplague novels will prop up the otherwise-ragged pre-Spellplague NDAs that are just begging to be torn down thanks to the time jump... and that's a rant I've done before. Many. Times.
Anyway, I'm working on core rules mechanics stuff lately; the lore isn't coming together for me when every question I come up with that would make something make sense is answered with "NDA"... and I'm not blaming anybody for that, it's just the way it is right now. Ed has done an amazing job of telling us what he's able to, and I wish him luck at GenCon with loosening up those NDA strings a little more. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
|
|
|
Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 03:13:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
The simple fact is, I think the Realms will continue to be a Wizbro brand as long as Drizzt sells novels. If the Spellplague kills the Realms as a game setting, I suspect that will just mean that we pre-Spellplague Realms fans will have to be content with the old products that are getting more and more difficult to find (legally, anyway) and what homebrew we have time to share on sites like Candlekeep (and, of course, Ed's not-inconsiderable contribution to the 'Keep with the help of THO). But that will still be stifled, because the continued production of post-Spellplague novels will prop up the otherwise-ragged pre-Spellplague NDAs that are just begging to be torn down thanks to the time jump... and that's a rant I've done before. Many. Times.
Anyway, I'm working on core rules mechanics stuff lately; the lore isn't coming together for me when every question I come up with that would make something make sense is answered with "NDA"... and I'm not blaming anybody for that, it's just the way it is right now. Ed has done an amazing job of telling us what he's able to, and I wish him luck at GenCon with loosening up those NDA strings a little more.
That is what scares me. The only hope is for the game to fail and the novel sales to drop dramatically. Give the IP to Ed again, and he'd most likely team up with Paizo and we'll have a Pathfinder/FR, bringing everything back to the way it was and now under Ed's control with the Paizo staff supporting him with the game world mechanics.
Wishful thinking, I know.
Exactly how popular are the FR novels? I really do not know anyone that reads them, except for the Drizzt books. Even then, they at least play the game also. And they either haven't played D&D in years or stopped at 2E or 3E and never went ahead.
Now, your last statement bugs me to no end, also. Why is pre-Spellplague material NDA? First, anything released would simply be omitted, retconned, or altered to fit the 4E gameplay and setting, relating it to the Spellplague and the merging of the two worlds. They practically retconned the Grand History of the Realms, I don't see why not? Also, many of the NDA material is, I'd say 80% of it, wouldn't mesh at all with the 4E FR lore they're trying to mold ASAP. I mean, the entire multiverse changed along with the Realms, which totally adds to the myriad of contradictions now produced (and then WotC goes and makes a strange statement, saying the GHotR is still legit despite the inconsistencies).
Prime example, giving us lore on the Age of Dragons and Age of Giants and their lands, history, personalities, dragon and giant deities, etc. would be the sort of NDA that should be let free since it won't have any affect on their 4E Realms setting since they have a completely different spin on that entirely. (based off the Core 4E setting, something I will never understand is why shoehorn the Core 4E setting into FR?)
I am hoping stuff like releasing NDA info on Sossal or the Old Empires or Ossa can finally be released, just more examples of how it wouldn't affect nor be used for their 4E Realms. |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2010 : 05:49:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
That is what scares me. The only hope is for the game to fail and the novel sales to drop dramatically. Give the IP to Ed again, and he'd most likely team up with Paizo and we'll have a Pathfinder/FR, bringing everything back to the way it was and now under Ed's control with the Paizo staff supporting him with the game world mechanics.
Alas, Ed simply does not have the time that would be needed to run the IP and the staff at Paizo have steadfastedly said they are NOT interested in doing licensed work again.
But there are other alternatives out there. However, it is all moot since the RAS's novels would have to tank for that to happen and they just signed him to keep writing for (at least) three more years. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 06:03:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I didn't become a fan of the Realms because of the blank spots -- I became a fan because of all the spots that were filled in.
If I want a setting that is a blank canvas for me, I'll go to a new one. I actually think the 4E Realms would have stood quite well on their own, as an entirely new setting -- if they'd called it something new, and not tried to make it a continuation of the old, I think they'd have had a lot more fans, and certainly wouldn't have caused such a rift in our community.
To me it's like pulling the wool* over people's eyes to talk about the Realms as though its only value to DMs is that it's so detailed.
What people seem to forget is that, since its publication, the Realms have served as both backdrop and inspiration for DMs to do what DMs like doing best: creating NPCs, dungeons, encounters, epic story arcs, new lands and an overall fun time at the gaming table.
Since the start, people have bought Realms material so they could practice their creativity in the setting, and port in other material to add to their campaigns in the Realms (Dragon and Dungeon magazines, various 3rd party products, stuff they saw on TV or read in a novel or comic book, etc...).
The Realms strength lay in that it assisted and inspired DMs to do *their* work.
Because the setting was so filled in, the Realms stifled a DM's ability to create, which is (as the kids in the States say these days) hela fun.
Instead of making stuff up, you have (well, had) to look it up in all those many sources you (Wooly) have twice bought.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn most Realms DMs did what I still do: ignore all but one our two useful sources and create everything else.
The Realms as it exists now is very similar to the Realms of the late '80s, with lots of unknown areas and plenty of open space for DMs to practice their craft.
*no pun vs. your SN intended |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 08 Apr 2010 06:29:40 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 11:42:47
|
I never felt that there weren't enough open spaces and unknown areas in the Realms. I think there's more of an issue with the argument that such was lacking than there was with the amount of detail present.
To me, the amount of detail present served as a framework more than anything else -- there was enough detail to tell me the shape of an area (so to speak) without filling it in completely. Take Undermountain, for example: two boxed sets and three modules, yet even the uppermost levels had at most a third of the rooms detailed.
If that's not enough room for a DM to play, then what is? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 12:16:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I never felt that there weren't enough open spaces and unknown areas in the Realms. I think there's more of an issue with the argument that such was lacking than there was with the amount of detail present.
To me, the amount of detail present served as a framework more than anything else -- there was enough detail to tell me the shape of an area (so to speak) without filling it in completely. Take Undermountain, for example: two boxed sets and three modules, yet even the uppermost levels had at most a third of the rooms detailed.
If that's not enough room for a DM to play, then what is?
That's a great way to say it. Many people who weren't fans of the realms in its later stages thought there was too much info to use to make it a good game (I heard or read a Wiz employee mention this, which one I forget, but he said that's why he doens't run a Realms campaign), but these people, whom the changes were made for (to no avail) just didn't understand that there was MORE than enough room for customization. Maybe the problem stemmed partially from hardcore players who knew more than their DMs and kept correcting them (even though what the DM says is what is true for their campaign), this may have been too frequent and caused ana uproar (and some of these DMs maybe only DMed the realms to cater to their Players who were Realms fans and weren't realms fans themselves). I don't know how common this may have been, or how much, if any, of a factor it may have had on any business decisions to drastically change the realms.
But I enjoy all versions of the realms and feel I can play in any era. Some things that happened I don't understand but accept, but also respect those who also accept, those who understand, and those who don't accept as their own choice (some things did give me some good creative ideas to start off on for my own campaign, involving Netheril). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 13:51:40
|
Well they did 'shrink' the map for 3E. I think that contributed to the its 'cluttered' feel. Not that I thought the Realms were cuttered.
I also think that the Realms had to be 'simplified' for the Living Realms. You can't have some 'Canon-Nazi' disrupting play at GenCon because the DM is getting it wrong...
Yes I will be playing some Living Realms in the near future. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 14:24:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Well they did 'shrink' the map for 3E. I think that contributed to the its 'cluttered' feel. Not that I thought the Realms were cuttered.
I also think that the Realms had to be 'simplified' for the Living Realms. You can't have some 'Canon-Nazi' disrupting play at GenCon because the DM is getting it wrong...
Yes I will be playing some Living Realms in the near future.
Yeah I think the Living Realms and realms-haters who attend GenCon are two of the main contributing factors to all the realms changes in 4E. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 14:28:50
|
Pretty much. Just look at Greyhawk.
Hey we still have Ed, Brian, Erik, Paul, and a myriad of others working on the Realms still. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 14:33:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
Pretty much. Just look at Greyhawk.
Hey we still have Ed, Brian, Erik, Paul, and a myriad of others working on the Realms still.
Heh. Maybe the Realms will be the official setting for 5E like Greyhawk was for 3E (all the FR deities in the Player's Handbook) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2010 : 14:42:54
|
True, but that is kinda Scary.
Unless they left Ed and the Freelancers do all the heavy lifting.
Please WotC keep the setting away from your in House Designers.
Let them build 5E, and let Ed and Co work on the setting. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
What happened to Open ,Free and Spirited Debate?
