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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jul 2010 : 13:38:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Absolutely yes. MarkusTay and I and others have expounded on that in this and other scrolls; essentially, magic makes possible modern force mixes (including long-range artillery fire and the need to guard against it) in a "medieval" setting.
Two examples of heavy magic use in battles spring to mind. The first is the "March to Extinction" detailed in the Netheril boxed set: forty or fifty thousand humans from the then-very-young nation of Netheril against several million orcs in the nearby mountains. The humans were tired of getting hit with hordes every few decades, so they built a series of gates ringing the mountains and used them to cut off all escape. So whenever orcs tried to get out of the mountains, the entire human force could combine to destroy them, and then disperse again to continue hunting down and destroying orc villages.
The other is from Elaine's novel The Floodgate, and is a mass battle between the armies of Mulhorand and Halruaa. Halruaa is on the defensive, strategically surprised, and massively outnumbered... and they wipe the floor with the Mulhorandi. One memorable spell combo slays thousands of Mulhorandi soldiers, pulls their blood into a gigantic elemental, and then animates their skeletons. And then later we get an equally-enormous roc made of fire that destroys the elemental and takes out even more thousands of Mulhorandi.
As for sizes of hordes, Fall of Myth Drannor notes that the horde that destroyed the city was around 250,000 strong, and that it was small to tiny compared to most hordes. The thing that made it deadly was its genius generals, its previously-unheard of level of organization (it was an army, not a horde), and a comparatively high percentage of "things worse than orcs" (ogres, gnolls, mezzoloths, etc.). I made some notes years back about the estimated sizes of Myth Drannor's army in return; I'll see if I can't hunt those down when I get home.
Lovely! I once tried to estimate the forces of Myth Drannor too.
Could one of the hallowed scribes here point me to other scrolls regarding the wars in the Realms? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 03:35:38
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Hi again. Sorry it took so long to get back to you on the Myth Drannor army size question; I've been having some pain in my hands that makes it hard to type. It's somewhat better now, which gave me a chance to run the numbers.
It's actually really easy to figure out Myth Drannor's army size, though a bit time consuming, because Steven Schend gave us the break-down of the sizes of the various units, along with how many troops were in the base unit. A bit of spreadsheet-fu yields the full numbers. (As a side note, I discovered doing this that my old numbers for the Akh'Faer were drastically low, thanks to my multiplying by the wrong multiplier in a couple of places.)
Myth Drannor appeared to have a thing for fours. The Akh'Faer is explicitly said to be made of four Flights, and the Akh'Velahr can be implied to be made of four Legions (references are made to the Fourth legion, but not to any Fifth). Four also shows up a lot in the Akh'Faer organizational chart. Anyway, here is the summary:
Akh'Velahr:
Legion Troops: 3888
Legion Officers: 2332 (of which 1296 are Nilaa "sergeants")
Legion Total: 6220
Akh'Velahr Total: 24880
Total Troops: 15552
Total Officers: 9328 (again, of which 5184 are Nilaa)
Akh'Faer:
Flight Troops: 4096
Flight Officers: 1754 (of which 1024 were Faerniir "sergeants")
Flight Total: 5850
Akh'Faer Total: 23400
Total Troops: 16384
Total Officers: 7016 (again, of which 4096 were Faerniir)
This is not including the Arms-Major, the Arms-Captain, the Spell-Major, or the two Spell-Captains. This is, however, after the draft that went into effect following the first incursion of the Army of Darkness into the mythal. That draft included every single wizard in the entire city, which is why there's nearly as many of them as there are foot soldiers.
Twenty three thousand wizards gives you an idea of why Netheril never expanded into Cormanthor's territory, and why the Crown and Scepter Wars were never much more than an annoyance to Myth Drannor.
Left out of the count are the various adventurers and other independent groups (Moonshadows, N'Velahr, etc), but that still puts Myth Drannor's total army strength just below 50,000. This is, incidentally, consistent with other parts of the text in The Fall of Myth Drannor. The Army of Darkness was established to be about 250,000, and Myth Drannor is "still outnumbered by five to one." Steven Schend obviously worked all this out in advance.
Myth Drannor's draft quintupled the city's army size, so we can infer that the army probably was defended by one Legion of the Akh'Velahr (6220 total soldiers) and one Flight of the Akh'Faer (4096 total soldiers). That might explain why the expanded Akh'Faer doesn't have an officer at the Flight level besides the Spell-Captain. Even assuming the Spell-Major also takes a flight, that leaves two others without anyone above Arfaern, who normally command the unit one down the chain (Wings of 2560 soldiers). It's a relatively elegant system, but still shows some signs of being cobbled together. Quite fun. Hope all this helps. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 03:41:23
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Awesome information!
I still don't understand how the Army of Darkness could win out where NETHERIL was only an "annoyance" to Cormanthor.
I'd wager that the two eras reflected a horribly different scale in military power being available to the elves... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 04:49:15
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Indeed, The Fall of Myth Drannor details the pressures on the elven nation during that time. I recall several significant events and trends that lead to Cormanthor being in disarray during the war. (it has been several years since I gave Fall of Myth Drannor a full read through, so some of this might be out of order and specifics lacking).
Shortly before the Weeping War, the Coronal Eltargrim passed on, leaving his niece (Aravae?) to lead the country. Not long after that, the new Coronal was killed. A long procession of would-be worthies tried to claim the ruler's blade to become Coronal. Some of these were the best and brightest of the elves, many didn't survive. This insured the top tier leadership remained a pure vacuum with many casualties of the subsequent succession process. Factions formed as a result, dividing a once united nation. Some of the factions and noble houses even fought each other.
During the war, there was much bickering about leadership and direction. Many lives and resources were wasted as Cormanthyr when through different leaders and strategies. Some of the talent lost in the first encounters of the war again deprived Cormanthyr of its best and brightest. The Army of Darkness also started stealthily, maneuvering and then striking before defenses could be fully implemented.
There was also prejudice on the part of some elves who took on leadership positions. They did not view non-elves favorably, the friction amongst the ranks of the nations defenders (made up of many races) meant a less-than unified effort to confront the Army of Darkness.
Later the Army raided elven tombs and other vaults, seizing potent magical items for their own use. This enhanced the might of the Army beyond most regular hordes, even daemon-led hosts.
Perhaps due to arrogance, Cormanthyr failed to call in assistance from neighboring realms such as Cormyr. The shock of the Army of Darkness' rampage and sheer cruel power stunned the denizens of Cormanthor, there was some hesitation at the beginning.
The details of the Weeping War in The Fall of Myth Drannor supplement is an epic saga that shows how the once great nation fell in its weakened state and how a few tried to save what they can. The Cormanthyr that saw Netheril and her survivor states consumed by hubris and dust is vastly different, in terms of prowess, than the Cormanthyr that succumbed to the Army of Darkness. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 04:58:48
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True, though a lot of the rough spots got hammered out in the aftermath of the city's first invasion. But with the death of the Coronal and his heir (Aravae never actually became Coronal), the factions did decidedly weaken the city. There was also a great deal of emigration, as people left to find better opportunities elsewhere (an unintended consequence of the mythal extending lifespans - there wasn't the usual turnover, so advancement stagnated, especially for anyone challenging the orthodoxy).
Still, even against a force as strong as the the Army of Darkness, Myth Drannor had a fighting chance. They made mistakes, and there was the occasional flare-up of racial tensions, but for the most part they came together in a cohesive whole that in some cases stunned their enemies. They also had a superb command team in Arms-Major Kelvhan Olortynnal, Arms-Captain Hachaam Selorn, and Spell-Major Josidiah Starym. Not to mention, well, a lot of other factors.
Reading Fall of Myth Drannor really gives you the feeling that if a couple of things had broken in a different way, or if the city had seen any sort of strong reinforcement (from Cormyr, Silverymoon, or wherever), it really could have weathered the storm. It would have been greatly reduced, and might not have survived to the present day, but it could have beaten the Army of Darkness.
One thing's for certain: it would make an epic campaign. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 05:06:24
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A thought about Netheril: one of the reasons Netheril didn't attack Cormanthor/Myth Drannor is because it was flanked by Eaerlann and Ammarindar (and Delzoun, for much of its existence). We know the two elven empires had fairly cordial relations, and it's not much of a stretch to think that Eaerlann would have come in on any war against Myth Drannor. That would leave Netheril having to fight on two widely divergent fronts, with each opponent close to if not exceeding itself in strength.
There's also a chance Ammarindar could have come in as well. They were close allies of the Eaerlanni, and nervous about the Netherese. For instance, the Xothol was established specifically as anti-Netheril, and closed up with that empire fell. And if Ammarindar was attacking, Delzoun would at least cut ties with Netheril, if they didn't send troops, and Delzoun provided Netheril with much of its "goods from the earth" trade.
I think it might be possible for Netheril to take out one of its neighbors, at least in a MAD, "no one left standing" kind of fashion. But attacking any one would likely expand to its fighting an alliance of three or four kingdoms across thousands of miles, and not even Netheril could handle that.
edit: I think it's telling that it's only after Netheril's fall, when there's a desert/magical battleground separating the survivor states from the three empires to the west, that any (former) Netherese go to war with Myth Drannor. Because now finally their long-vulnerable flank is secure. And they still get their heads handed to them. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 26 Jul 2010 05:07:55 |
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Calmar
Acolyte
49 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2010 : 07:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
On topic - what do you think about Aglarond's victories over Thay in the 2ed? Or about Netheril vs. Cormyr in 4e? Is magic really that important for winning wars in the Realms?
No, it depends on the author wants to win the war. You see, that's also the explanation why Mordor or the Galactic Empire were rather easily defeated despite all odds.  |
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Military Strength of the Realms
