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darkelf15962
Acolyte
22 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 21:55:40
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What kind of skyship is depicted on the cover of the Shining South Supplement? It looks like a zeppelin and I WANT ONE. Also where could my character get one?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2010 : 23:56:12
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| I don't know of any zeppelins in the Realms. Halruaan skyships -- which it was supposed to be -- are not zeppelins. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Feb 2010 23:56:44 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 00:11:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know of any zeppelins in the Realms. Halruaan skyships -- which it was supposed to be -- are not zeppelins.
With the demise of Halruaa, I imagine any skyships that survived are very rare and hard to wrest away from thier possessors! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 00:26:35
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Zeppelins would be kinda difficult to incorporate in the Realms anyway, given the scope of the tech-level and Realms-brand physics.
Halruaan Skyships, however, were detailed in the old FR16 The Shining South tome -- pg. 22. The Skyships were also covered in the 3e Shining South tome -- pg. 56, and briefly under the 'Defense and Warcraft' section on pg. 130. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 00:30:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know of any zeppelins in the Realms. Halruaan skyships -- which it was supposed to be -- are not zeppelins.
With the demise of Halruaa, I imagine any skyships that survived are very rare and hard to wrest away from thier possessors!
Especially from those beyond their borders! I like the idea of rabid Halruaans descending on those they might have once sold skyships too and attempting to "reclaim" them. After all, the Halruaans sold some of their skyships to the lizardmen in the forest, according to 3/3.5e's Shining South.
And, as I recall, the older Shining South tome tells us that the Halruaans guarded the secrets of their skyships most zealously. As such, I think that you'd probably find that Halruaan wizards had indeed been assigned to "watch over" the skyships given over to the lizardmen -- both as a security measure [to prevent the secrets of the ship from being lost] and to deny the lizardmen from using the skyships in anyway they see fit. It'd also help later with that "reclamation" I spoke of earlier.
And of course, in 2e material for Zakhara, one of the skyships was stolen and taken to Zakhara. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 02:42:46
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A tid-bit of 4E lore from FRCG page 254 discussing skyships of the 5 companies.
Great Halruaa has fallen, but its legacy lives on in these five bands of roaming mercenaries, smugglers, traders, and buccaneers. Each possesses a magical vehicle known as a skyship. Tavern talk has it that each company formed around a wizard who escaped Halruaa.
After the destruction of Halruaa, wizards fleeing from Maeruhal, along with their few skyships, came across the pirate base of Yaulazna.
A Five Companies skyship looks like an ordinary seagoing ship, fully rigged with three masts and sails. It has two panels on each side that can be deployed for steering and stability, as well as a broad beam that allows it to land on a flat surface without listing.
Magic allows it to climb or descend in the air, but it can sail the seas as well. In either mode, it relies on the wind for forward speed. As long as its magic remains, a skyship won’t fall from the air or sink. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 03:27:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Zeppelins would be kinda difficult to incorporate in the Realms anyway, given the scope of the tech-level and Realms-brand physics.
Well hot air still works, though of course the lift is lower.
I do indeed grant that, hydrogen lifted rigid blimps can not be made with realm Tech.
Hot air balloons though could exist should a tinker gnome decide to make one, magic though likely is quicker. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 03:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hot air balloons though could exist should a tinker gnome decide to make one, magic though likely is quicker.
Well, considering that the number of tinker gnomes in the Realms is quite small, the hot air balloon prolly won't be developed any time soon. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 03:45:20
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
A tid-bit of 4E lore from FRCG page 254 discussing skyships of the 5 companies.
Great Halruaa has fallen, but its legacy lives on in these five bands of roaming mercenaries, smugglers, traders, and buccaneers. Each possesses a magical vehicle known as a skyship. Tavern talk has it that each company formed around a wizard who escaped Halruaa.
After the destruction of Halruaa, wizards fleeing from Maeruhal, along with their few skyships, came across the pirate base of Yaulazna.
A Five Companies skyship looks like an ordinary seagoing ship, fully rigged with three masts and sails. It has two panels on each side that can be deployed for steering and stability, as well as a broad beam that allows it to land on a flat surface without listing.
Magic allows it to climb or descend in the air, but it can sail the seas as well. In either mode, it relies on the wind for forward speed. As long as its magic remains, a skyship won’t fall from the air or sink.
I like the Five Companies idea, though I don't like the backstory -- but that's part of my larger issues with what's been done to the setting.
I think, though, that the Realms of 1375 might support something like the Five Companies -- perhaps as a group of disaffected and/or expatriate Halruaans. Alternatively, they could be from somewhere else entirely, like space or the planes. We've seen flying ships in both places. I'd go for an extraplanar angle, myself, since the Spelljammer angle is too obvious to be really fun. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 07:02:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Zeppelins would be kinda difficult to incorporate in the Realms anyway, given the scope of the tech-level and Realms-brand physics.
Well hot air still works, though of course the lift is lower.
I do indeed grant that, hydrogen lifted rigid blimps can not be made with realm Tech.
Hot air balloons though could exist should a tinker gnome decide to make one, magic though likely is quicker.
Doesn't necessarily have to be the result of tinker gnomish ingenuity.
The tinker-like aspect of the gnomes was the result of TSR bringing the concept of the tinker gnomes into the Realms, and also largely because Gond appeared [in the form of a gnome] on the island during the Time of Troubles. Despite all the gnomish-ness however, Lantan still had a notable and significant human presence, who were mostly quite intuitive and capable of innovative technological design on their own as members of Gond's faithful. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2010 : 07:15:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think, though, that the Realms of 1375 might support something like the Five Companies -- perhaps as a group of disaffected and/or expatriate Halruaans. Alternatively, they could be from somewhere else entirely, like space or the planes. We've seen flying ships in both places. I'd go for an extraplanar angle, myself, since the Spelljammer angle is too obvious to be really fun.
It's even possible that something like the Five Companies had been planned long before the time of the Spellplague. Renegade Halruaan wizards intrigued by the possibilities of breaking out on their own or curious about forming trade relations with those few outsiders Halruaa has sold skyships to, could potentially profit from running solo ventures that focus on skyship-based companies answerable only to that particular renegade wizard.
As for the planar-angle, well, we know the Arcane are always keen on new trade ventures and technology that promotes such. I'd imagine they'd be very interested about offering financial support for a potential Yaulazna-styled pact in the 1370's. Heck, maybe they own the ships themselves and are currently hiring out for crews to operate them.
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Edited by - The Sage on 13 Feb 2010 07:17:37 |
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darkelf15962
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 05:19:16
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| But the Skyship on the cover of shining south has a large balloon attached to it, while halruaan skyships dont. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 05:30:15
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quote:
Originally posted by darkelf15962
But the Skyship on the cover of shining south has a large balloon attached to it, while halruaan skyships dont.
Yup. It's yet another case of the art not matching what it was supposed to depict. Some artist was told "skyship", and either didn't get more description, or didn't follow it -- and either way, rather than get proper artwork done, WotC just ran with it.
So far as I know, there are no zeppelins or hot air balloons of any sort in the Realms. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 06:21:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by darkelf15962
But the Skyship on the cover of shining south has a large balloon attached to it, while halruaan skyships dont.
Yup. It's yet another case of the art not matching what it was supposed to depict. Some artist was told "skyship", and either didn't get more description, or didn't follow it -- and either way, rather than get proper artwork done, WotC just ran with it.
What he said.
Far to often I have seen cover art that in no way matched the text (the actual story). Sometimes the art appears to be based on theme, or to be kinder first proposal for story. The final story does not match the art. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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darkelf15962
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 19:57:21
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| ...Im so sad now. |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 20:43:16
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| well the flying boats were in the 4e adv. vault too iirc... |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Feb 2010 : 22:21:23
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| The pity is that art potentially can play a more active role in world-building sourcebooks than in cover art for prose fiction -- it's the difference between illustration, which is secondary to text, and comic art, which is parallel to text and coordinated with it to include certain details. Such a shame that Wizards spent so much money on colour Realms illustration so little of which has any longer-term use of the 'this looks just like this' kind. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 07:29:48
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I'll be honest here in my opinion.
I can see Lantan having such zeppelins. The range on them will be garbage, mainly because they aren't perfect. Heck, I can see them being used to cross the sambar run (the water between the north & south island) but not for much else. It would definitely be a "wealthy only" type of thing.
Given the limitations of technology (and some leaps of faith in Gond and the rules regarding Technology in Lantan), I can see a coal furnace being built to fill a balloon with hot air & smoke. The skins are water and fire-proofed, making them easier to move around, and a separate vent is used to propel the zeppelin across space (using the coal furnace "exhaust"). Would it be cheap? No. Would it work well? Not compared to a true zeppelin.
I see the crew being 4 people, with a maximum passenger load of maybe 10. This brings theh total to 14 people. I'd say that the range on the hot air balloon/zeppelin to be roughly 75 miles one way (max speed about 5mph, so you go 75 miles in about 15 hours in good weather). This gets you over the sambar run quite handily, but keeps you well grounded and doesn't overtake the larger, more powerful, skyships of Halruan fame.
Sorry, I've been working with Lantan a lot lately, and I can see the clergy of Gond using such a thing to help maintain their power.
/d
:Edit: The FR Wiki mentions that supposedly Lantan has "flying Machines" This could equivocate to Zeppelins. I don't know at this point how close to canon that is.
I'd definitely recommend becoming a friend with a Gondsman if you want to get a Zeppelin, though. |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 18 Feb 2010 07:34:42 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 14:14:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
:Edit: The FR Wiki mentions that supposedly Lantan has "flying Machines" This could equivocate to Zeppelins. I don't know at this point how close to canon that is.
I suspect that that little tidbit is merely an elaboration of the details about the 'Air-Screw' and 'Heartland Flier' from DaRoni's Workshop [in Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue] somehow finding a place for development among Gond's faithful on Lantan. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 18 Feb 2010 14:22:07 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 14:29:02
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Actually, now that I've started thinking about this all again, I seem to recall a dirigible-like airship being featured in the Once Around the Realms novel. Granted, it's hardly strict Realms-canon, but it could be a possible opportunity to explore if the DM of a home Realms campaign was intrigued enough to want to try it.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Amraz one arm
Acolyte
Netherlands
42 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 15:45:15
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Maybe, it's not in the function of an hot air ballon. For magic is already keeping these sky-ships afloat. Strong winds could play havoc on precious cargo, so a big ballon ontop of it would stablize the whole. Not offcourse in the most severe weather types.
And for the realms having ballons, I can see multiple countries in 2nd 3rd and 4th using these as easy lookout stations.
Or wizards preforming atmospheric experiments and the like. I would consider hot air ballons quite low tech, but also very unstable. |
"You smell human to me." |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 17:25:20
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They'd also be monster bait, of the death-trap variety.
Going way up in the air in a flimsy balloon is one thing when there's nothing more fearsome in the air than the occasional hawk. It's another thing entirely to do it when there are literally hundreds of flying monsters, many of which consider human a delicacy, and most of those are smart enough to realize that if you puncture the baloon, you get to pick a tasty snack out of the rocks below. Just basic balloon geometry makes it impossible for anyone in the basket to defend the upper half of the balloon from flying attacks.
I think the technology is there to create hot air balloons, especially in Wa or other places with large quantities of silk. I just think they're suicide based on the Realms' monster population unless used right outside a major city, or maybe within a large army's encampment. Even so, you'd want to either be a wizard or have some sort of flying magic to guard against the inevitable shredded-balloon-leads-to-fatal-crash, and if you've got flying magic, then why would you need the balloon in the first place? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 19:22:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
... Even so, you'd want to either be a wizard or have some sort of flying magic to guard against the inevitable shredded-balloon-leads-to-fatal-crash, and if you've got flying magic, then why would you need the balloon in the first place?
Not all of your allies may have access to said flying magics. What if you were the sole owner of such magics? Are you investing in wands of Fly for the whole party? If so, good for you. Most groups I've run prefer to be on the ground. Some groups, who like that type of Final Fantasy-esque adventure, would like the zeppelin-like skyships. Thus the reason I put them in Lantan, as there are likely fewer of the "I'm going to have human for a snack" things there.
I definitely think that the range will be limited to about 75 miles, due to the need for hot air constantly needing pumped into the balloon (and the necessary cargo for said range causing some problems with that), as opposed to the lighter than air gasses that destroyed several modern zeppelins. I'm all for having them, but it's a matter of what you want in your Realms.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 18 Feb 2010 19:23:51 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 19:55:08
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If you're the sole owner of the flying magics, then you'll be the sole survivor when the balloon crashes. Sort of a dis-incentive for anyone else to climb into the basket.
The more I think about this, the more I think it's a terrible idea from a wandering monster perspective. Hot air balloons, even those big enough for a single person, are huge. They can be seen for miles around, and all sorts of creatures will come looking to see what the heck is going on. And whether it's tasty. At least on a flying ship you've got thick wood and multiple crew members and space to spread out and defend your craft. Not to mention maneuverability. Hot air balloons lack all of that.
On the other hand, if you could avoid the monsters, you could go essentially forever. Create a magical item based off of Heat Metal to provide the lift, and Control Weather (or its less powerful varients) to make the balloon go where you want. Should be relatively straight forward. Unfortunately, all of those monsters means you'll be snack food before you can go anywhere. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 20:12:44
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Err with magic, you could perhaps enchant the gas bag with protection from animal, etc.
The cost of construction however is going up, in order to stay up.
Some animals, birds and such would likely avoid a balloon , the reason birds run into Jet engines is a matter of speed - the birds can not get out of the way in time.
Of course Dragons and flying mounts clearly could be inclined/directed to attack a balloon. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2010 : 20:27:27
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| I was never thinking of birds or normal animals. They don't bother RW balloons, after all. The things that came to mind were creatures like: perytons, harpies, griffons, fiends of all kinds, dragons, wyverns, random air elementals, hippogriffs, and gargoyles. And that's just what I could think of off the top of my head, without getting into things like Zhent sky riders or dracoliches or other aerial cavalry. Quite a lot of things would be both interested and capable of taking down a balloon that can't manage even the simplest of evasion. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 05:09:28
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*assumption on my part*
If someone were to be using a hot air balloon, they'd be a sitting duck due to being at the mercy of the winds. There are some Realms technologies in use that would save someone from a nasty fate were that to occur (the Drogue wing used by the hippogriff riders of the Great Rift) would be useful for someone in a hot air balloon.
Now, let's say that the Zeppelin is "fantastical steampunk-esque" (inspiration: Final Fantasy).
Real World: The Hindenberg went approximately 135 km/h (rougly 83.885 miles per hour, or 85 miles per hour for the game use, translated to 300 feet per round).
Fantasy world: Overland travel speed of a Great Red Dragon HUSTLING is 60 miles per hour (200 feet per round, clumsy). Thus, outrunning him is easy.
Overland travel of a Great White, Brass, or Gold dragon, however, sits at 80 MPH (250 feet per round, also clumsy)... possibly a bit greater of a challenge, as the local movement might be difficult.
So, let's assume that the Dirigible has a maximum tactical movement speed of the 300 feet per round (running the engines at full blast). On round one, that's not enough to get out of a 60 foot cone of fire or whatnot, let alone a full on charge from the dragon. The dragon gets to have food very easily by charging every round... into a hail of arrows, spells, and (if this is a Lantanese Dirigible) firearms.
Also, remember that if this is done well, there will be a ballista or "archery emplacements" on the top of the balloon via tubes built into the balloon or ladders on the outside of the balloon. What could also be done, albeit a bit more difficultly, is to place the main platform ABOVE the balloon, or even AROUND the balloon (limiting cargo space, for sure).
I've been toying with a steampunk-type campaign centered about and within Lantan, so this sort of thing has been on my mind lately as well.
/d
(all tactical and overland speeds come from the DMG and the PHB. The way I figured the extra 5mph was finding that a heavy warhorse goes 5mph, so I added 50 feet to a dragon's speed to come up with 85 miles per hour). |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
Edited by - Darkmeer on 19 Feb 2010 05:11:57 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 05:30:38
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The dragon is still going to be a lot more maneuverable than the airship. And a dragon doesn't just have its breath weapon -- most dragons have spells of their own. And even if the airship stands up to the breath weapon, one good swipe of the dragon's claws and that ship is making one last journey -- a fast one straight down. Even if you cover the thing with weapon emplacements, that dragon only has to get close once -- and considering how tough dragons are, that wouldn't be a challenge. And of course you could load the ship with spellslingers -- but that's not an efficient use of magical resources, and that same amount of magical resources could be devoted towards making a proper skyship that would be a lot harder to bring down.
As for engines to make the airship go fast... Even if you could somehow make a steam engine that efficient, the weight would be prohibitive. Even using heat metal or something, you've still got the weight of the engine itself, plus the weight of all the water in it... Those engines would likely weigh so much that weapons and/or a large enough crew to defend the ship would not be possible. A balloon big enough to lift one of those engines would be too big to adequately defend, even from a flock of bored sparrows. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2010 : 05:54:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And of course you could load the ship with spellslingers -- but that's not an efficient use of magical resources, and that same amount of magical resources could be devoted towards making a proper skyship that would be a lot harder to bring down.
Besides, shipboard wizards are rare and there are usually much worse things in the air [or at sea] to worry about. Most airships, regardless of magic, aren't warships and don't attempt to fight heavily armed attackers. The exceptions will, yes, have their own magical protections [wards, proofs against fire, etc.] and/or mages ]who have access to many more defensive magics than counterspells]. |
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http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Skyships
